My DD14 has always have a problems about keeping friends. It's easy for her to make a bunch because she is funny and outgoing but keeping one seems immposible. she sees flaws in people and gets frustrated when they are missing something like morals, integrity, fairness and diligent. She doesn't share her opinions about what she thinks they are doing wrong but her friends might pick up a cue of her frustration from here and there. Also, most of her friends are jealous of her achievements and wittiness. They would try to talk her out or tease her from being so hardworking and smart. They hurt her feelings from time to time(DD14 is very sensitive too)

DD14 is taking the pre IB program in HS and she is a top student out of the top. It's hard for her to find the same kind since she is not a nerdy type and she gets attracted to the playfulness in the less capable people. DD14 is incredibly playful.

She said she hates everyone and chooses to stay home study 24/7 to avoid getting hurt. School and volley ball are her only buddies. Should I be concerned? Is this normal and it's just a pharse? Are gifted people destined to live their lives like this until they find their own kind one day? Please share your opinions. Thanks a lot.

Sounds like your daughter is looking for the right things in a friend, and the real problem is the rarity of those desirable traits in others. I also think that by looking for the right social traits and not getting hung up on intellectual ability, your DD is making a smart decision.

The only thing I'd be concerned with is if she's being a little too rigid in how she identifies the lack of morals, integrity, fairness, and diligence in others. Perfectionism run amok?

My DD15 is very shy and also is too rigid. She has school friends, but does not socialize outside of school. It breaks my heart how much she is alone. She does not seem to mind most of the time, but she has let it slip a few times how lonely she is. (She is an only child.)

I was pretty perfectionistic as a kid on these things, but I was still able to maintain a group of friends.

My rigidity got me into trouble on occasion, but it wasn't a deal-breaker.

Oh boy! Just wanted to let you know that I can relate!!! DS14 is a perfectionist, is serious... has such high standards for everyone around him. I pity his future wife Lol ... He's talented not only in academics, but also in music and sports. To find that unique combo is impossible where we live. Fortunately, he just shrugs it off and says that he can't wait to get to college where he'll hopefully find others more like him

I really can't identify with this at all (my DD is the polar opposite of this, emotionally speaking-- though she is also very playful, witty, and high-achieving)-- but I do have some insights into this. Sorry-- some of this is going to sound quite harsh. Please forgive me, but my own young teen (also PG) is recovering from extended abuse delivered by a peer with a probable narcissistic personality disorder. In other words, my kid is one of those kids that your child evidently "hates," and feels is "unworthy" of her friendship.

Yes, other HG+ people are rare but... um... it does seem a bit suspicious that your child (and you, apparently?) feel that there is nobody -- and apparently, nobody even "close"? to measuring up within her demanding IB program? Unless this is a fairly small program and she's never been grade accelerated, that's statistically unlikely even for a PG child. Now, that doesn't guarantee compatibility-- I get that, and this is my DD's reality as well. She has few similar-ability peers who share interests. Like your DD, she isn't a terribly "geeky" or "awkward" girl. She's very popular, but she has few friends who truly "get" her, and she's also three years younger than any of those peers. I can see how she really would be light years beyond any peers if she were an 8th grader right now (unaccelerated). So on the academic side, it may be true that she's "the top of the top" but that seems to only be tangential to SOME of the things you're describing.

Being that way doesn't automatically translate into feeling superior. Your daughter sounds arrogant, and maybe a little mean-spirited with peers. Unvarnished truth. Has she NEVER been around other PG children? It'd be interesting to see how that played out. I'd probably make an effort to get her that exposure-- if it's truly that she's lonely, she'll find a better peer group, and if it's not, at least it will be far more evident to you that something is amiss.

How does she feels about her teachers? Her coaches?

Honestly, that outwardly-directed perfectionism CAN be a serious red flag. The fact that your child can't maintain any close friendships? Yeah-- that's not a good sign, either, because it indicates very all-or-nothing thinking and possibly a lack of empathy for others. I also find it telling that you describe her as "funny" and verbally "witty" and then go on to hint that peers also "pick up on" her judgments about them. My guess, having seen this dynamic in action? She may actually intend for them to feel cut to ribbons by her sarcasm, and it's possible that she is using her voice as a weapon. Not everyone who is "witty" makes other people feel disliked or devalued.

It sounds as though your DD believes that she is better than everyone else she knows.

Is this actually TRUE? Is she that "perfect?" Have you asked teachers/counselors?

In what ways is it true? I find it very difficult to believe that your child knows NO people who exceed herself in integrity, honesty, loyalty, altruism, athletic ability, musical talent, etc. Or is it that if it's NOT an area of excellence for her personally, then it is worthless? Is it that anyone who doesn't AGREE with her must by extension be "stupid" or corrupt? It's concerning that she is so judgmental, frankly.

She is social, but... is isolating herself because nobody else measures up?? And she "hates them?"

WOW.

Sorry-- I know that as parents we're often quite reluctant to consider flaws in our own kids. But you did ask.

If I were you, and assuming that this is something that you've seen for quite a long time, I'd be involving a counselor.

People like this can be setting themselves up for a lifetime of personal unhappiness-- and just as importantly, they make everyone AROUND them miserable, too-- in extreme cases, the reason why they "have no friends" isn't actually that they "choose" to have no friends, but that they can't sustain friendships with others because they don't really have the empathetic skills required to BE friends. Again, at the extreme end... but narcissistic people destroy other people. Some narcissism is normal for adolescence. But parents are often not in a good position to see when pride and self-confidence cross the line.


As noted at the top-- this is simply what I'm picking up from your post. Others have already covered the "loneliness" aspects of things. Please understand that I do get that aspect of this, having a DD who is in a similar situation. It's just that my DD's response to it has been radically different than what you're describing. What do school counselor/teachers think about your daughter's self-imposed isolation? What do they say to you about her interpersonal skills?

There are many well considered points in your post, but I came to a different hypothesis based on two points:

1. "She said she hates everyone and chooses to stay home (sic: to) study 24/7 to avoid getting hurt."
2. "It's hard for her to find the same kind since she is not a nerdy type and she gets attracted to the playfulness in the less capable people."

It sounds like loneliness to me, maybe with a touch of misanthropy. The OP's DD is portrayed as seeking out friendships across social borders, but keeps coming up short becuause the "nerds" are too introverted/serious and the "jocks" can't relate to her intellectual interests. I know you acknowledged that this offers a partial explanation.

I think it's easy to blur the line between being discerning vs. judgmental and, with limited case facts, it's hard to say which is at play. I don't disagree with your assessment of the dangers of judgmentalism, but I do think we need more information before drawing a definitive conclusion. Personally, I'd like to better understand the word "hates"-- is it reactive or not?

I appreciate your perspective and the nuance it brings to the discussion.

Thank you very much for all your input. I really appreciate all the comments and suggestions. They are all I need to re-evaluate my parenting and my DD's behavior. I don't take comments personally but they do post a lot of insight when you think about your own situation. No one knows exactly what's going on in one's situation but yourself. It depends how to take it and implement them wisely.

It's my fault that I didn't share the whole story before I seek comments and help. I shall tell you more before anything else.

My DD14 is an only child and I saw her giftedness early when she's around 1.5 of age but I only confirmed her giftedness after some out-ot-level testing result.

DD14 was diagnosed with anxeity and depression when 3 and has been taking med since.

At 5, she was placed in a regular public school in kindergarten. Her teacher adored her personality and recognised her ability. She enjoyed that year so much and she was a happy camper. But things got really bad when her first grade teacher didn't enjoy having a gifted child in her class and tried to suppress her in front of everyone. Her self-esteem went down so low that she put a guy name next to her own name on every single piece of hw to disguise her own identity. She refused to wear girls outfit and I had to buy clothes out of the boy sections for years. Her anxeity level shot up and we had to increase her med.

My mother's instinct told me that I had to pull her out and we put her in a private school after spending 2 months in the public school. She might appeared as a cheerful girl from outside but I know deep down she was a little mouse that so scared of getting in trouble with the authorities. She's very anxious at most. But her own cheerful personality and kindness had drawn a lot of friendship from everywhere. I was told by most teachers that she's kind, respectful and humble. Her teachers adored her.

Nonetheless, at this age it didn't allow her to identify the indiffernece she was facing but the topics that she talked about sometimes make her the wirediest one in school. She would tell friends about how an airline woudl save money from removing an olive of every passenger in first class but no one cared about it. But she kept being funny and weird. People didn't mind when they were at that age as long as you are willing to put your hand in the dirt.

Things went down when a girl of one year older came to our school in second grade. Again, my DD14's personality got her attention and that girl wanted to be friends with her. My DD14 had more friends than anyone then. It was fine for a year or two but some jealousy started to take place in this girl's mind. She starting to manipulate people around them and made them turn against my DD. A year old than most gave her the advantage and power when kids were around 8-10. They're starting to realise the indifference in my daughter. Friends were starting to turn against my DD and my DD's conscience was kicking in as well. My DD felt unfairness and her judgement of the wrongfulness of course didn't help her to remain calm and solve her problems. She started to feel more anxious each time before a new school year all because of the uneasy situation brought by this girl. Her doctor had to increse her dosage every summer to help her ease the anxeity attack. My heart broke again.

We finally moved her to a public school in seventh grade and she learned so much from the GATE program like good study habit, more down-to-earth kids. She spent most of time adjusting to the new school system and new friends. So, life didn't seem too bad without a lot of friends. To add more info, this public school is located in a lower income district and 80% of the kids are under priviledged. The other 20% are mostly in GATE. These two years went by fast and people weren't mean to her since she's a newbie and everyone found her interesting. Again, she's funny and playful and we have a very different background from most. (My husband is a doctor but we live a comfotable but humble life but kids still see the difference)

HS is the time when I see the problem getting bigger. (Most kids in this HS were from the previous MS) They don't have curiosity about my daughter anymore. They identified her and her place as who she is, is set.

Just to add a note. My DD14 is a very kind young lady and would put her heart out to people. That's why she gets hurt easily and she closes herself up now. I never agree that my DD is easy going and I'm sure pretty much most gifted children have their own traits that other don't understand but I'm sure she is a sweet person. Most of her coaches and teachers always comment how sweet and humble she is and were surprised she is not a spoiled child from where she's coming from.

Our family have a belief of treating people right and kind but never let them take advantage of our kindness. I'm trying to help my DD to understand that she should stand tall when other people try to bring you down but never be mean to them. She got it and did it but she's lonely now.

That's my story. I hope it helps if anyone wants to know more and contribute your opinions. Anything will work, nice, harsh as long as I learn some from it. Again thanks again all the GT parents. Love you all cuz we have the best kids in the world and we care.

True, what aquinas notes-- "hates" can indicate all manner of poor fit issues with kids. It could be that she is genuinely feeling bullied; withdrawal is a definite indicator, particularly if it's recent. I wonder also what "hurt" means in this context-- both subjectively and objectively. Is it a lack of affirmation of her beliefs/wishes? Or is it deliberately hurtful or nasty behavior from peers? There is a world of difference between those things, and it's why I wonder about the perspective of other adults who know this young lady in her daily life. ETA: It sounds as though you are doing that-- which is good. I'd definitely keep asking for inputs from those people, and let them KNOW that your DD is having these problems. See what they can tell you after observing a while.

I seldom characterize my DD's peers as "jealous" of her accomplishments (though when faced with black-and-white evidence, perhaps shocked/intimidated). The few who are envious/jealous tend to be so highly competitive and insecure that they are absolutely toxic and destructive (often aided by parents). That's not the majority, however. I'd remove my DD from a situation in which that was the norm. Sometimes we've had trouble with other parents of bright-not-gifted/MG kids, because they become so defensive when their special-snowflake construct is threatened by my DD's unassuming but undeniable HG+-ness. It's a parent problem, though; occasionally the parents even come after my DD directly. Obviously I draw the line at that and gently remind other parents that passive aggressively interacting with my DD that way is... unseemly and inappropriate in the extreme. I fully concede that in a highly competitive environment/district, it's possible for an HG+ child to be victimized by a group of social jackals. "Hatred" might well be an appropriate response to that over time. It depends on whether the feeling of persecution is based on actual actions/statements of others or not.

So why does DD not have this envy/jealousy problem much with peers? I have a couple of hypotheses. DD compartmentalizes; her school friends have no idea that she also excels in areas X, Y, and Z, and her friends from those other activities have no real reason to know just what an academic superstar she is. With agemates, she's "13" and with academic peers she's "11th grade." She doesn't share every accomplishment. Therefore, she isn't seen as "threatening" socially, but it takes nothing away from her, either-- she just shows the facets of herself which are situationally relevant at the time. Most of the time, wide-open competition is going to make others feel bad/defensive by comparison-- DD is far too good at far too many unrelated domains. Now, that comes with its own problems, since she compares her performance to "100%" rather than to peers... but that is a different kettle of fish.

DD also looks for ways that her friends are highly competent or admirable, and she's complimentary about their interests and abilities. They learn that they can trust her not to lord anything over them, or criticize them when they are feeling insecure. In other words, interpersonally, she finds ways to make others feel that they are her equal/superior in terms of human/social value, even when she COULD make them feel like dirt instead. She is gracious and keenly interested in what others are doing. This is why people like to be around her once they know her well; because she makes others feel GOOD about themselves.

It sounds like teachers and adults like the OP's DD very well, and that maybe it's mostly a peer problem.

My own DD has the same high levels of integrity, honesty, altruism, and morality as the most extreme of her peers, but she isn't judgmental about it. She won't go along just to get along, but she also doesn't feel any need to "correct" others aside from a few areas (all related to in-progress hate-speech or discrimination). She can agree to disagree about pretty much anything as long as it isn't actively injuring another person. She has seen peers who interpret "please stop badgering me-- I don't think that you're right, and I'm never going to" as a personal attack of some kind, however. That is obviously rigidity and this is where I wonder about the term "hurt" as the OP has used it.

None of my DD's friends has been a cognitive equal-- and the only one who was close actually had a pathological need to believe that his LOG was far higher than hers (which seems have been a sham intended to cover insecurities, actually). She's probably only known 1-2 other peers who were at her LOG, and unfortunately (for both kids), they had little in common interest-wise. Nevertheless, she has never once felt that another human being was unworthy of her or her time; she just enjoys others for what they DO have to offer rather than discarding them for what they lack.

There are things about being human which transcend intellect.

I can't say that my DD doesn't have friendship problems. She is also searching for a soul-mate best friend, and has yet to find anything like one. But she's not throwing away the friends that she makes because they don't match that ideal, either. ETA: If, as the OP has reason to believe, this set of problems is intrinsically related to a particular relationally aggressive student, then I'd address that with the school. (I'm assuming that this other peer is back in her DD's life again and that is where the problems are coming from-- my apologies if I've misunderstood.)


I'm also wondering what would happen if the OP approached the school at all about finding a more suitable placement for her DD. It sounds at least possible that her placement is not sufficiently challenging-- though that isn't clear either, since she apparently DOES work for her academic successes. Hard to know from just a little snapshot, but I thought that I would throw that idea out there. If she were with OLDER peers, and no longer "the top of the top" maybe she wouldn't be such a target socially? Or does she have a need to always be number one?


{Thanks so much for understanding that I'm merely offering ideas-- not judging in ANY way-- every situation is far more complex than we can explain easily on a forum}

As another thought, from my own recollection, that time in my life was hard for me. I was not really mature enough yet to realize you have friends for different reasons. I wanted a best friend- a soulmate, so that I felt like I could be understood all the time. However, in time, I have learned this and am a much happier person because of it.

I'm not saying not to worry about this, but maybe help her work through it. Btw, I was also disillusioned when I went to college and thought everyone would be like me, only to find that it was pretty similar to high school.

For what it's worth, here's a recent article on the science of why high school sucks. It doesn't really tell you anything other than that it really is important that you do something. Good luck.

Oh-- that is a really good point!!

Is she feeling disillusioned because she anticipated that HIGH school would be so much different from MIDDLE school?

My DD had a lot of trouble with that, I know.

Thanks for your wise words.

My daugter recently got hurt from a group of friends because she was looking for some true friendship which would allow her to share her feelings and get support from them. Instead she encountered a lot of disappointment when it came to a point that they didn't stand up for her when she got hurt or wronged from others(an obvious mental attack from other people). They would come to her when they needed help on HW(mostly asking to copy it) or a ride from A to B cuz I'm free most of the time or a join birthday party(they want to save money). DD felt used most of time because the imbalance of give and take. She was always there for them and would stand up for anyone who was down or hurt. She would offer help(not letting them to copy HW but to help them to understand the materials and tips on studying) and she is the most generous girl you can meet. She would buy friends the expensive gifts but very cheap on herself. She once wanted to save $300 to give away to one of her friends as b-day gift since she has no money for clothes. In return, she betrayed her and left her and that hurt her the most. I'm not sharing the details since it's a long story but I witnessed the whole thing and I know DD has been used at most.

DD does get along better with older peers and they usually love her to death but DD is put in the same age group peers level. I don't want her to skip a grade and I am sure the academics is really right for her level right now. She might not be the genius in math nor the one with photogenic memory but her integrity and movitivation to succeed set her apart from the bright but lazy peers. She would still get A's if she does less but she's aiming to get perfect score on everything. That's why I said she's top of the top. She does research on her subjects when teachers don't give enough info not just to get the perfect grade but also to satisfy her crave to learn.

The jealousy problem that DD is facing is mainly from a small group of people but they are the one that she would choose over the nice, decent and open-minded HG peers. That's why I see the problem and don't know how to help. It's her choice of friends throw her off. I always joke around saying DD has an angel and a devil in her and she's dangerous, haha, just a joke but this some truth behind each joke, you know what I mean....

I just hope I will have a striaght and clear mind to help her to walk through life a couple more years before she takes off to college. I just want to do as much as possible to help when she's around. Her anxeity and depression gets so much better and we are taping her off the med to minimum and hopefully she will leave us to college without it.

Again thanks a lot. You are very wise and loaded with good info and that's why people say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree . On my case, my husband's side takes the credit;)

Just to add this to make sure she is not money-minded.. she would bake cakes and make arts and crafts for friends too.

College was worse for me than high school, but that's partly because I never figured out what exactly I was supposed to do there and I really didn't want to be there.

Law school was meh.

Thanks Elizabeth for the article. It was very interesting. My daughter is definitely a "brain".

It's a self-caused problem.

She's going to continue to have friendship problems if she keeps doing what she's doing because she's doing it to herself.

That's why I'm so worried about it. She's drawn to the playfulness in people and she could only found it in the less capable group. She did find someone in the summer camp for the gifted last couple years ago but they live in Asia and N.Cal... Is it the area of the school I sent her limit her choice of friends? The two that she got along really well share all the traits, intellgence and even backgroud. Will this hurt her if she has to stay in this school for 3.5 more years? Is this just a phrase, a life traning experience to fight against the odds? I'm in doubt that's why I am here...

I would encourage you to google Rosalind Wiseman and check out her books and website. This seems to me more of a mean girl issue rather than a gifted issue. I really like Wiseman's approach to explicitly teaching girls how to choose friends, and how to allow yourself to be treated. Sometimes gifted girls try to pretend they are not gifted in order fit in with what they perceive to be the popular group...maybe that has something to do with it. Wishing your dd the best.

PS to my previous post.

Kids in her school are not exposed to outside world. Some of them never leave town or never been to West LA., not to mention the world. We believe in seeing the world is more than just reading a book, therefore DD has been to places in Asia, Europe and more. It did open up her mind and that's why she can't find people who can feel the same share the fun... she knows she should not talk about it to make anyone feel bad. She has to restrict herself. Also the less they see the world, the less they will accept others with differences. Therefore, contradiction and misunderstanding take place. Does it make sense?....

Ok. Let me wrap this up. My concern and my motive of this post is..

Is she in a right school for the right group?

Should I react to the situation instead of letting her learn to deal with it? I made a mistake believing in this while she had been bullied for years and had her suffered from anxiety. I told myself all kids are kind nature and everyone should learn in their own course. I was wrong and I can't forgive myself by not listening to my heart when problems arose. I taught her to bear it and kinda put the blame on her then....

There's only 3 more yrs for me to help before she leaves our house..

Is there people like her waiting for her? Any hope? or should I just let her learn and believe in her again?

Just being a nervous mom who thinks she has done soemthing wrong in the past... bad decision....

So any insight?

Hmmm-- I have to wonder if, in light of your DD's ability to gravitate to older youth, the decision to keep her academically with age-mates is entirely positive.

It seems that this is causing a handful of related problems--

your DD is the "curve-breaker" for her peers (this cannot possibly make a person a lot of friends unless they are willing to help others cheat)

she is learning that 100% is not only reasonably attainable, but also that it is EXPECTED-- for her, anyway

she is learning that there is nobody else as capable as she is within her peer group.


In some ways, my DD doesn't have those problems because she thinks of her ACADEMIC peer group as the hard-working, honor society, AP/IB kids who are three years older than her. In other words, she is still in the top 10%, but it's a matter of luck who is "on top" in any particular area or assignment, and they all know it.

This also frees her (and her peers) to view agemate relationships as SOCIAL rather than academic in nature-- and therefore non-competitive in that academic arena. It also frees academic peers from seeing my DD as a social threat (which is a girl thing, I fear).

I'm wondering why your family has decided so emphatically against acceleration, momsalwaysamom. I'm sure that you have good reasons for the decision-- I'm just wondering if you've examined the probable down side of always being number 1. (Because I think that it goes without saying that this won't always be the case, particularly if your child attends a prestigious/elite college-- there is ALWAYS someone smarter than you, even if it takes a while to run across such a person...)

We've had a few friends whose children (and I'm going to be appearing to be stereotyping here, I'm sure... but this is about cultural expectations, not race) were expected to achieve at the 99th percentile-- ALWAYS. My DD has a few friends who have that expectation placed on them by first-generation immigrant parents. They see being a "standout" as NEVER being a negative thing, and that even if the child has to work frantically hard to earn those accolades, that is completely worth it. Parents work hard to provide opportunities, and they expect that their children will work EVERY BIT as hard to take advantage of them, and to give 110% at everything that they do. In one instance, one of the children in the family is HG, and the other is bright/MG; but both children are expected to achieve the way my DD does (without extraordinary effort). My DD feels terribly sad for the MG child in that family, because it's clear even to my 13yo that this is an unrealistically high, crushing expectation that is sucking the joy out of life for that friend, who is overstressed and overscheduled to a tremendous degree. My DD has helped this peer with math tutoring, fwiw, and the student is very bright... just not PG-bright. If a grade is less than 100% in that household, there are consequences. Because "results matter." They are looking to produce high school valedictorians in that household. Period. No WAY would they consider acceleration for the HG child, even though (privately) that seems to me to be a far more appropriate and healthy thing. Because that might jeopardize "number one."

Anyway. Not suggesting that your reasons for keeping your DD in an age-placement are necessarily about insurance of having a high school valedictorian... but if they ARE...

please consider that long-term, it can be better for a child to have an academic peer group that CAN compete with her.

I can also respect that other families see this quite differently than we do. For families which see elite college admissions as the goal, maintaining that level of achievement might well be something that they decide is mandatory. (It's not that important to us; our feeling is that the cost to our DD is simply too high to consider doing it.)

Making 100% the goal can feed anxiety every bit as much as making success uncertain/out of reach can. I know-- we've been walking this tightrope with my DD13. It seems (from most research on the subject) that making 100% just out of reach is better strategically than conditioning them to feel that this is always what "success" will look like for themselves. After all, if the class is not terribly hard, then is 100% really "success?" Or is it merely "what a relief-- I didn't fail and miss anything"? My DD has struggled with the latter because school is still not quite as challenging as she actually NEEDS it to be in most classes. AP Physics has been a blessing there-- 100% isn't really possible for her other than if she gets kind of lucky, and therefore, her effort is actually proportional to her results. This is a rarity, and I can't say that she's always enjoyed it (in part because she is somehow convinced that WE expect 100% from her given all the years when that has been not only a possibility, but frankly, not even all that much of a stretch)... but we can see that it is turning her away from a fixed mindset and toward a growth one-- which is a GRAND thing.

It doesn't sound as though this is a particular problem area for your DD; she does, if I'm reading you correctly, have to work pretty hard for her 100% grades. I'm just not convinced that having 100% be attainable is always a good thing either way. Does she believe that she MUST earn 100%? Please don't misread me there-- no WAY am I suggesting that you have communicated that expectation to her. My DD believes this as well, and she certainly hasn't learned it from US. Or does she think that she has to be #1? Maybe that is causing some of her anxiety as the challenge level increases from middle to high school?

Perfectionism and anxiety are tricky, tricky things to wrestle with. I don't want to give the impression that we don't encourage excellence in our DD. We do.

But we've learned to be VERY careful how we do that encouraging.

Obviously, parenting teens isn't for the faint of heart, is it?? I really hope that something I've mentioned is helpful. Teenaged girls are very complicated creatures.

Yes, high school as bloodsport!

This was my high school experience. I suppose, in hindsight, it's not the best idea to get a rush of joy when you have just destroyed your competition academically. I suppose that doesn't really teach pro-social behavior.

It's not just 1st generation immigrants.

My "arrived in the early 1700s" parents basically expected this of me given that I was significantly more intelligent than my peers and was fully capable of sandblasting them.

I was tired and completely burnt out by the time I got to college, so eventually I just stopped doing anything at all.

However, college was free.

I come from a family that had very low expectation on their children and only hope that they would be kind and independent, well sometimes I do wonder what if they did expect more from me....would I be very different ;p

Well, what I want to point out here is I'm pretty layback in nature and sometimes I appear not ambitious enough. In my parenting, I try to see what my DD actually wants and just go along with it. DD used to be a non-competitive little rascal, school was just part of her life. Having fun was her goal. I of course wanted her to have fun and be a happy kid. Therefore, her first 6 years in elementary school were all about having good grades and fun. Not much of an effort until she's in MS. She only liked to compete with herself or just for the fun of learning until the last day of school....

It happened just like a thunder struck her hard and she was extremely disturbed after she realised she wasn't recognized by school through all the awards presentation. She didn't get anything except being one of the highest GPA students. She got really unpset because she saw most people who got the awards didn't even do as much as she did. They told my daughter that they didn't like school, they cheated on tests, copied other works, only focus on the HW and tests which would bring a high grade. Instead, DD put all the effort to do her projects, sleepless night for just one project and she did get a first 100% from a teacher with 30 yrs of teaching, got praised highly, project still gets pass along for kids now in that grade to learn from. But all she missed was forgetting to bring a book the end of the term and got a grade deduction or a test that had a big impact on grades. Kids in public school since day one know how to play the game, they study their Aeries report and manipulate the grades accordingly. The system was new to her and to us. I never paid attention to the scores or grades, I seldom went on the website to check her works.

This rang her bell and she's all up and ready for something that she wanted to take back.
We helped her to identify what would make her happy and successful and she firmly believes that she can be the one being recognized with true efforts. Again her justice just kicked in hard. She wants to play the game right and be more goal oriented. Someone even told me that it's called being street-smart as a public school kid but she hasn't lost her ownself, just added a little change to her always simple and straight forward mind. She's always her own boss. Sometimes I am the one trying to convince her to slow down and step back a little for being too immersed in school work. She would get mad at me for saying that...so I'm like "ok..ok. I respect your decision..."

Also, she wants to kill time by doing more in school work and grades that she could forget being left out and worthless. I feel like she's treating her achievements like Morhpine to ease her pain of being unwanted(in her mind). I also think getting a 100% is more like a game than a must for her. Also, she never thinks she's the only one that has this ability. She respects people with the same effort and always compliements their works. She's just not ready to choose them as close friends... I wish she would.

Grade skipping was once in my mind when we decided to change her from private to public education system. Since GATE was something new to us, we wanted her to try it. Things turned out fine and she's happy and being challenged at a right pace. I don't want to give her more than she can handle. If both academics and friendship were her challenge at the same time, I don't think it would be the best for her anxeity disorder.

Just some thoughts based on those I have met in my life, but I have not parented a teen...

It sounds to me from what little information has been posted that she has a serious self esteem issue. I say this for a number of reasons but the expensive gifts are a huge red flag, particularly when she doesn't spend on herself. Psychiatrists like to say it is a manifestation of a subconscious feeling of being unworthy of the other person.

The comments from her that others are unworthy due to flaws in them may have less to do with perfectionism and judgmental behavior than self protection. If I reject someone else first, I don't need to worry that they will reject me. I must subconsciously determine a reason to reject them that fits withhow I want to be perceived.

The adoration from teachers and coaches suggests people pleaser, which is not inconsistent with low self esteem. Her strong desire for awards and recognition support both, particularly when considered along with the observation from teachers that she is humble and from you that she is driven to study.

It sounds to me right now like the studying is her vehicle now for escapism. Unless addressed, if I am right, this could easily change when she is older to boys or alcohol. Neither is pretty.

I do not think any of it is your fault. People pleasers by nature do not complain much. To do so would go against her idea of what a daughter "should" do or be.

My advice. Tell her you love her and compliment her to excess, if she truly seems humble. Recognize that whatever she is telling you about life is not likely 100% accurate, but is shaded by how she wants to be perceived by you (and herself). Ask her why she is so driven and what she hopes will come of it. Ask her if she wants to be homeschooled and what she would study if 100% free to choose. The answers, whatever they are, are likely to show you a better idea of what is going on in her head. (If she is a true people pleaser with low self esteem, you would never know if she is not challenged enough.)

Those last questions I posed... Really probe for WHY. If her answer for being driven is because she wants to go to an elite college, that really is not deep enough. Why an elite college? You need to probe until she reveals what she truly values... What is a "good" reason to her? She doesn't care about money. You love her uunconditionally. Love of learning often doesn't drive people with perfect scores to seek awards and recognition.

On a different note, she might enjoy the Davidson Institute THINK summer program. Kids like her, would be a great award or form of recognition,... Looks good on a college application... Easy to sell to a people pleaser.

Also a fresh start with a new group of kids. If she doesn't like them, it is only a short time.

Thanks for your insight.

I think I misled you here. I mentioned expensive gifts just to explain she used to care about others a lot. It's just so happened the stuff her friends wanted cost more than they could afford and DD wouldn't just go and buy the friendship, she just wanted to see a smile on their faces. It's her thoughts to care for the friends who have less. Our family always loves to give and she picks up from it. My husband does a lot of charity works too.

She is adored by teachers but only the teachers admire her integrity, ability and still being humble. She usually won't be liked by the teachers who prefers teachers pets. She got in trouble a lot with those types of teachers because she's too playful in class before. DD dislikes pleasing others for no reasons. We never ask her to please us either and this doesn't exsit in our family.

Also, even she is humble and down to earth but she will not be shy telling me about her achievements. The funny thing is she would follow with an apology of saying " Am I braging? I'm not trying to be cocky but I just want you to know...." and she knows my husband and I are out of a few that will share her success with joy.

I hope this clarify my previous posts. But thanks again for your input and I will still look into the info you provide. To learn more is always a good thing.

I think that SAHM is right on target.

(And I am parenting a teen-- one with a lot of similar/related issues, which all tie into self-esteem, perfectionism, and anxiety. No way to separate them.)

My predictions, based on what I've learned in dealing with my own perfectionist:

a) what would she study? No real answer, or not one that makes ANY sense, or doesn't shift like the tides. Because she has no desires/identity separate from the perceived approval/affirmation she gets from meeting the demands of OTHERS. If you probe, you may discover that she does NOTHING that doesn't have a 'payoff' in terms of self-esteem. My DD's thing is doing things that make OTHER people happy-- her friends, mostly, but also her perceptions of what everyone in her life "wants" from her.

b) Why? Because... she... just... wants to. I'm guessing that she won't HAVE a good answer for this one-- not one that she'll tell you out loud, anyway. So ask "how does it make you feel when _______?" questions. THOSE will be eye opening if you catch her in a self-reflective mood. (I know that I was pretty shocked to learn that NONE of her awards or achievements mean anything at all to her; to her, it was all "Meh." We posit that the reason is that an A/A+ is just "adequate" in most of her classes because they just aren't THAT hard-- for her, I mean. She values what she WORKS for, but at the same time, she's learned that NEEDING to work means that something is wrong. Not a good combination.)


Also ask her what makes her HAPPY. No-- really HAPPY. Not because of what she GETS by doing it-- an activity which IS its own intrinsic reward. Something she would do purely for the joy of being engaged in the activity. I was horrified when my DD basically couldn't name anything that she did just for herself.

I mention my own DD's responses to some of those things because I know that those things are perfectionism run amok in her case-- just without the outwardly-directed component that your own DD seems to have. But the socially-prescribed component is the "people-pleaser" type, and the workaholic, high-achieving version is self-oriented.

Okay-- crossed posts with you again.


WOW. Okay-- maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but...

she is "adored" by some teachers-- those who... admire her innate greatness and tremendous positive qualities, yes? And don't object to her verbal "wittiness" presumably?

What, precisely, constitutes teachers who have "teacher's pets?" Is this just teachers that your DD feels don't respond "properly" to her? Or is it when a teacher picks a DIFFERENT "pet" than your DD? Because it sounds to me like she NEEDS to be teacher's pet and mostly always has-- and that this is even a possible driving force in a lot of her behavior. (Is it a driving force in YOURS?)


Is "playful" here a bit of a euphemism for "mouthy?" That is a common characteristic of some gifted kids, and some teachers tolerate it better than others... but it sounds to me like your DD resents being told "not here/now, please." Frankly, at 14, the expectation IS that she can turn it off when it's inappropriate, and the kids who can't are probably not going to be well liked by some teachers, because those teachers see them as discipline problems. If this is more than a couple of teachers in a high school career, then the problem probably isn't the teachers.


I don't think that I'd assume that your DD's reports here are 100% accurate. Because it seems to me that she's basically singing the same tune-- she's blameless, and when people don't treat her well, it's because they are bad and it has nothing to do with any error of hers.

I'm not buying it. I don't buy that even in my own DD, fwiw. I realize that the instinct is to NEVER find fault with our own kids-- but it might be time to do a gut check here and ask yourself if it's possible that you have been helping her to make excuses.

Pleasing others for no particular reason, whether the other person "deserves" it or has anything that we want in return at the moment; well, this is kind of how friendships work.
In light of that, perhaps some of her potential friends have distanced themselves from her because they feel that she's keeping score and trying to purchase their loyalty using the currency of favors, gifts, etc.? Is it possible that they feel manipulated? Or is it possible that your DD has devalued those friends (or characterized their behavior as "betrayal" to you) because they haven't done as she wished after she invested in them? I find it VERY strange that she consistently approaches kids who are less intellectually able than she is. Again, red flag. It's either that she's intimidated (or threatened?) by her intellectual peers, or that she's looking for people that she DOES feel entitled to relationships with-- on HER terms. Or-- and again, back to my very first post here-- she is looking for kids that are likely to be more easily manipulated.



There's something about this that doesn't add up completely. Sorry if that seems harsh; but I think that it's possible that you're being manipulated or just that your DD isn't being entirely forthcoming with you about HER role in her interpersonal difficulties, and that you are choosing to let her off with handy excuses. You're hearing her side and assuming that it is entirely accurate. That's not always a good thing even with a scrupulously honest teen; their perception filters are just quirky.

A single interpersonal problem might not be the person's fault, but a string of them... tends to be pointing at something being off. I don't think for a second that this is merely her anxiety disorder. Have you tried asking one of the teachers who "dislike" your DD why they haven't warmed up to her? Ever asked one of these "former" friends or their parents what the problem was between the kids?

I would do that.

This sounds useful to do.

Agree with HowlerKarma on most points but think low self worth is still a very real possibility.

I am confused. How is she playful in class without friends? What exactly does she do in class?

It happened when she was younger in a private elementary school and of course she ins't doing it anymore with her maturity.

This breaks my heart. It also sounds like just what the OP's daughter is doing to herself. This kind of thinking means there is no way to enjoy being successful. Perfection in all things is an impossible standard to maintain so they are being set up for failure. These bright, engaged kids are missing out on the joy of learning. It just makes me so sad...

OP, I am not the parent of a teenager so take this with a grain of salt, I would get her involved in some kind of activity that cannot be measured in terms of being done perfectly. Maybe as a family volunteer one night a week at a soup kitchen. Have her spend Saturday afternoons volunteering at an animal shelter. Maybe just go to an amusement park and have fun. I would try to provide some outlets to allow her to have experiences that can be positive without the pressure of being perfect or competitive. At an animal shelter she will likely meet some other teens who have the qualities you say are important to her. She will get out of the house and interact with people. Life is bound to get lonely if all she allows herself to experience are her books, volleyball practice (where she also probably expects herself to be perfect) and her parents.

I'm not a psychologist but I wonder if this need to study 24/7 may be akin to an Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder. Can she stop herself or does she feel compelled to just keep at it? Especially with a history of anxiety and depression I would get her to a counselor pronto...

JMHO. Good luck.

That makes more sense. Be careful not to confuse who she was with who she is / is becoming. Growing up can be a rough process for all involved.

Ahh-- someone else beat me to it. I was thinking about this as I was drinking my coffee this morning, and was going to suggest that the OP insist that her DD make a regular commitment to community service of some kind. Preferably INDIRECT community service, where she doesn't really "see" the results of that service in real time.

The reason why I think that might be very helpful is that she will get NOTHING out of that which is measured by: a) performance, or b) gratitude from those she is helping. In other words, she will be (emotionally) on her own in feeling good about what she is doing without having EXTERNAL cues for doing so.

Some ideas that might suit gifted teens who do not yet drive:

a) library volunteer work
b) working for a local food bank
c) working for (as noted above) a local humane society or animal shelter
d) local Habitat for Humanity
e) volunteering to be a general office assistant for a local elementary school

The bonus of completely altruistic service like this is that it helps kids get out of their own heads so much, of course-- but it also lets them meet OTHER people who are just genuinely interested in making the world a better place. In a group of typical adolescents, that kind of thinking can really make a person feel freakish-- but the helping professions are filled with people like that.

You might see if there is a local youth volunteer corps in your area-- these programs are run by Americorps participants, who are often idealistic young college graduates. It's a way to get a wide variety of volunteer experiences and build a network of like-minded other youth near you.

I think everyone got some wrong info and idea here and there but it's ok. It's a long back and forth post marathorn.

We are not the type of parents that whould ask our child to get a 100%. We ask for her best for everything, it is the effort not the result. I don't mind her being in a B or C as only as it's her best effort. She is the one takes it to the next level for her own satisfaction.

She will be involved with charity work once school is off. We have our own charity work from time to time and school just takes up most of her time. I would see the part that she tries to be the top as a training of determination, persistence and perservance which she used to be lacking in while in the private school. Again, she is her own boss and I'm just here to support and cheer for her. I don't need that to satisfy my desire of success. My desire of success is to make my daughter a useful and happy person.

Thanks again everyone. I think I will take all the advice and put it in actions when I see the need. I will never say no to all the assumptions or suggestions otherwise I wouldn't be here to ask all the opinions.

Everything is so insigtful and I learned a lot.

Noooo, don't ask for her best in everything! There's no "just" about that; no wonder she's working 24/7...

Eta: you didn't say just, I see, but I feel it was implied. However, for a conscientious person, asking for their best is far worse than asking for 100%. At least if the requirement is 100% you can stop when you're sure you've done enough to achieve that.

{nodding}

Yes. I mean, in light of that I can see why it would be a bad idea to up the difficulty level-- but only because if "100%" is how she KNOWS that she's done "her best," then she might really be completely at a loss or go into a tailspin if she didn't HAVE that benchmark anymore.

Be aware, though, that such a day is coming for her no matter what any of you do-- either in the workplace or in college, there WILL come a time when her "best" (even at the expense of her physical or mental health) will not be "the best" or maybe even "one of the best."

What then?

Oops. I said that to her because she got all 100% in the private school without even trying and we strongly disliked that study habit. What should we say to her instead now....

Tell her to decide what she wants to learn and learn that, using school as a resource and other resources as appropriate; tell her to judge her own success by her own measures and not pay too much attention to external measures like school marks. (Pragmatic exceptions allowed for where marks have consequences that matter, but she should regard these explicitly pragmatically, not as a measure of herself.) It's OK to decide to put less than full effort into something if it frees effort for something more important (even if that's writing bad poetry, within reason!)

HowlerKarma articulated something some posts back that I'd never seen articulated other than by me: in my terms, the poisonousness of believing both:
1) if you have to work at it, it doesn't count (because you can't compare with the people who can do it easily);
2) if you don't have to work at it, it doesn't count (because you should be doing something harder)
I was taught both these things fairly explicitly and with full conviction, one by each parent! With hindsight, it's shocking how many years it took me to see what was going on...

Ah, yes, exactly. I got both of these with full conviction from the same parent, and didn't notice the contradiction.

Yes, me, too. That combination is a TERRIBLE burden-- I know. My parents LIKED my high achievement, so even though they probably knew that something was amiss... they were reluctant to "discourage" me from taking such a responsible attitude toward school-- so I internalized that the high achievement was all that was of value about myself, and when I couldn't keep doing it (in light of the crippling burden of perfectionism, noted above) then I was officially... worthless. Parents of teen girls do NOT want to know the rest of that story.



My last bit of advice for now--

discuss OPENLY that "best" is a subjective term. The only definition which matters is situational and internalized. EXTERNAL validations are merely ancillary. Period. They may indicate to us where we have learning to do, or have reached mastery... or they may mean little.

But they aren't about our self-worth. EVER.

Make room for something other than those external benchmarks. Let your DD know that it's OKAY to feel anxious about withdrawal from that drug of choice (approval/awards) but that you're worried about how much of herself she's investing in school-- and how little in other things that also matter.



Those other things that matter are habits for a lifetime-- healthy habits that keep us grounded, tied to our inner selves, and ready to tackle problems as they arise.

Agree completely and could not have expressed it half as well.

Some parts of this thread reminded me of The Simpsons

This is from season three

Bart: You make me sick, Homer! You're the one who told me I could be the best at anything if I just put my mind to it!
Homer: Well, now that you're a little bit older, I can tell you that's a crock! No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you.
Bart: Gotcha. Can't win, don't try.

Perfectionism is a trying master. Howlerkarma's suggestions are completely on point. I would add one further approach if I were in your shoes: ensuring that your daughter sees you and your husband verbalizing a healthy acceptance of imperfection in your own achievements-- and failures. Being conscious of your own thought process and modelling healthy self-talk for your daughter will be a tremendous help for her in recalibrating her definition of success as an intrinsic reward.

I would also caution you to be scrupulous in minimizing the ways in which your encouragement could be misconstrued. For example, at my grade 10 or 11 graduation, I didn't have the highest average, though I won most of the subject awards in my courses. I recall my father being indignant at the process (on my behalf, at being so close) and interpreting his comment as disapproval. In reality, the top GPA holder took none of the hard math or science courses, which I so enjoyed, and my dad disliked that GPA was blind to course difficulty and diversity. I didn't understand his motivations at the time. Fortunately, I'm not prone to extreme perfectionism, so I was "just" hurt that he let a perceived failure overshadow many successes.