I'm trying to figure this out. My son (11) loves to play games. He honestly doesn't care much about winning; he plays for the fun of it. He doesn't seem very much a perfectionist when it comes to schoolwork - most of it is sloppy and bare minimum. His SS teacher is constantly writing "elaborate", "explain", "more detail" on his papers. He enjoys playing baseball but won't practice; same with music and karate. He puts no effort into boy scouts but just goes to the meetings and activities and has fun. So all these things seem to point away from perfectionism. Seems like he'd work hard on it if he were seeking perfection??

However, there are things that might be perfectionistic. When my parents were here over the holidays, they asked him to play piano and horn for them. He played one song on the piano and did well but then goofed up the next two he tried. My mom said "just play with the music" and so he tried that and messed up and just gave up. Same with his horn. Now I'm wondering if maybe this aversion to practicing has something to do with being a perfectionsist?? My husband thinks sometimes that son doesn't want to put any work into anything because he's afraid of succeeding. But, he does these piano recitals and ensemble groups and says he loves them and does well. He gets so upset when he gets in trouble or when he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing, maybe he thinks his behavior should be perfect? Is that why he says "I'm stupid"? His piano teacher pointed out that although he seems to show a lot of confidence when playing the piano for a group, he obviously lost that when playing for his grandparents. She thinks he puts too much pressure on himself.

One math teacher pointed out that when he makes a mistake in math, he'll drop his head and berate himself.

Anybody have a simple way to tell if it is perfectionism? Am I missing something that's right in front of my eyes?

Oh, and he loves to read but he seems to read the same things over and over again. He seems to have trouble picking out new books. Almost like he's afraid to try something new. But, for example, at baseball, the coach asked for a volunteer to do something and son volunteered for it not having any idea what the activity was going to be. So, he wasn't afraid to try something new there. I'm so confused!

Meanwhile I'm thinking this screams perfectionism because lack of effort or apparent lack of interest is a protective mechanism against fear of failure.

This could be the fact that if he chooses the book, it'll be he who has failed if it's a poor choice, whereas when he is volunteering, he is receiving instructions from someone else so that person can be the one responsible if something goes wrong. ie, "well if he hadn't asked me to do that, it never would have gotten messed up."

Perfectionism is insidious...

The schoolwork thing does seem to be a problem, but not related to perfectionism. It sounds like he's not putting in any effort because he's not engaged, because it's far too easy. That may be the case in baseball or scouting, too, though it may also be that those activities contain too much routine.

This condition can lead to perfectionist tendencies in other areas.

Perfectionism doesn't have to manifest itself in all activities. It can just show up in the ones in which your DS thinks he should be perfect at. Like music. And math.

There's a whole different kind of pressure involved in performing by yourself versus in a group, and for family members versus strangers. I've known several performers who hated having their friends and family see their shows.

'Perfectionism' is one of those terms with a slippery definition - what does it mean to you, and what difference will it make whether this is or isn't?

You have described my son, also 11, very well - even down to the reading choices. Unfortunately, I have no advice to give; but I am especially nodding along with CCN's comments. I'll be watching this thread!

If nothing else, know that you are not alone.

For reading I found reading to him at night and audio books helps with book selection and getting out of book slumps. If my son keeps reading a certain book over and over again or a certain type book over again for his own reading, fine. But our night time read aloud I generally find a few selections (that he then chooses from, or sometimes I just declare it is my choice).

And every once in a while I have no problem saying...you know this book is a hard one to get through. It sounded good but I am wondering how you feel. And then we select another book or finish depending on our discussion. And he knows that is okay and not the end of the world if you selected a book that wasn't a perfect fit.

We also talk about book selections as I select books for myself. And read the inside flaps and make choices for him. He isn't really good at making selections off the shelf just yet (he goes more by word of mouth/suggestions from others) but I am laying the foundation.

I was reading another thread on "how much to push" or something and sort of had an 'AHA' moment. Maybe it's not that he's not motivated, but that he's scared of not being perfect. I think you approach those things as a parent in different ways. I'm not sure yet how.

I've really never thought of him as a perfectionist. My view of perfectionism is not sloppy, ill-done work, but work with lots of effort and done correctly and neatly and in an organized way. I guess that's the way MY perfectionism works. I never considered sloppiness as "wanting to be perfect".

Maybe realizing this means backing off on some things and offering more support instead of trying to motivate. I'm not sure. I'll have to do some real thinking about this. Meanwhile, I'm all ears for suggestions.

Thanks.

It's interesting, without a doubt, how it affects different people in different ways (and Dude could be right that your son is simply under challenged in school and bored. DD10 and myself are really plagued by perfectionism, and my DS8 is showing signs as well, so I tend to see it in a lot of behaviours). However... sloppiness (i.e. "don't care") is one of DD10's and my manifestations.

Hmmm. Trying to think of an example. My DD has probably the worst handwriting in her class. If you push her to do a good copy of something, it's tears, tantrums and lots of erasing. There is nothing wrong with her hands or her written output (in fact, she loves to draw and is very good at pencil sketching).

Her writing (composition) is bare minimum. If you ask her for a complete sentence she'll write something like "I sat." Her teacher is constantly saying she needs to exert more effort. Interestingly, she's a math kid in a language program with language gifted kids in her class, so there's stiff competition. Net result: she's not even going to try.

(Perfectionist thinking: "Oh well, if I had tried, I could have done the best in the class.")

She is also very, very musical. She composes her own songs and arrangements of existing songs on the piano. She won't play other people's sheet music (because it's obvious if she makes a mistake), but will play her own version (because no one will know if there's a mistake). Btw, getting her to practice is like PULLING TEETH.

Her room is A MESS. (This is more of an OCD/hoarder thing, but perfectionism & OCD sometimes overlap).

Re: games... When DS was 6 he used to put his king in your path if he felt he couldn't beat you at chess. He'd shrug and say "I don't care" but you could see the point where the game would turn out of his favor, and then he'd "dive" his king and want to start a new game.

(I have tons of similar examples for them but this post would be novel-length).

For myself, in school, it was last minute assignments (among other things). If I had started an essay the day it was assigned, the compulsion to make it perfect would have been so overwhelming that I simply couldn't have done anything. Instead I wrote all my essays the night before they were due.

(Perfectionist thinking: "I didn't have enough time. If I had started earlier when everyone else did, it would have been perfect.")

You get the idea... the examples aren't perfect (omg, can't believe I typed that, LOL) but they show that sometimes a drive for perfections yields the exact opposite.

Not sure if that helps. What to do? Not sure. I've written in other posts about how my DD has been helped by being pushed out of her comfort zone (i.e. so that she can't be perfect and has to learn to deal with it). It's definitely helped.

DS is the mildest of the three of us, and interestingly enough he's constantly challenged at school with his "Es".

For myself, I try little things like throwing something in the trash that should go in recycling. (LOL I'm cringing just typing that). Environmentalists take heart and know that I don't do this often

Petunia how challenged is your son at school? Is he accelerated?

Whoahhhhh.

How did you get all that footage from inside my own head as a child, anyway??

(Perfectionist thinking: "Oh well, if I had tried, I could have done the best in the class.")

(Perfectionist thinking: "I didn't have enough time. If I had started earlier when everyone else did, it would have been perfect.")

And oh, HOLY cow, my first year as a SAHM, um... I had nothing but 'enough time' relative to the full-time-and-then-some workload I'd been shouldering WITH the same household stuff.

KWIM?

NOT. HEALTHY.

My husband finally was able to see that yes, in fact, I just MIGHT be a perfectionist with some serious OCD issues if this went unchecked.

I think it was when I cleaned out the spice cupboard twice a month, wiped down all of the doors, moldings, and touch surfaces twice a week, washed ALL of the bedding twice a week in hot water... started scrubbing things with toothbrushes, and still made everything from scratch. No, I really mean everything. Even flour, for a while.

He was becoming just a touch concerned about me. I had to work part time. I was clearly not well just being in the house.

LOL I've been accused of having OCD once or twice I don't think I meet the diagnostic criteria for it... it's more like I'm right beside it.

I was worried about my DD, though. My dr dismissed the idea, saying "we all have a touch of OCD." DD has made tremendous strides and I dismissed the idea, until I found out (in my TA program night school) that an estimated 80% of childhood OCD is outgrown. Now I'm certain she had it. (They tell you that things like ADHD & ASD are life long, but apparently OCD in childhood can be outgrown, depending on how the brain develops.)

In fact, when she was about six, I remember reading an article about gifted kids with OCD that was so much like her, it made me cry. I made a copy and carried it around in my purse, working up the courage to give it to her grade 2 teacher (I was worried I'd be dismissed as being paranoid). I needn't have worried because it was that teacher who came to me about the severity of DD's perfectionism (and in doing so, opened my eyes to my own). I've learned a lot about myself because of my kids

Btw, how do you make flour from scratch? (Impressive!). I made bread for awhile, but never flour...

Real OCD is just annoying to be around because it's a permanent loop and gets old. Like nails on a chalkboard.

However, it's my favorite psychological disorder because I can just tune it out in other people.

It's like an infinite loop.

My mother used to do this when I was young and we were dirt poor (my father supported a family of four on a Ph.D. stipend). She would buy chicken feed and grind it into flour with an attachment on her mixer.

Thanks for the examples and thoughts.

He's grade-skipped a year. He has a late July birthday, so some folks consider him skipped two years due to the propensity here to red-shirt (start K at age 6, our cutoff is Sept1). He's in all GT classes and seems to enjoy school. He's in 7th grade and they do the equivalent of 9th grade Algebra. He says he's challenged but I'm not so sure. It's another thing I don't know what to do about. And, this morning, we've had another meltdown so I just feel like a very bad parent.

You can buy whole grains that are for human consumption once you're not quite so poor too! It's fun, provided you have a mill or attachment (there are manual and electric ones) and it's even quite sensible as, unlike flour, the grains keep practically forever so you can buy in bulk; we get 8kg buckets.

Found this on my facebook feed:

http://www.education.com/magazine/article/perfectionism/

#9 is a huge:

"Find activities for your child where she will not be the best. Help her learn how to handle being in such a situation. Do not let her discontinue the activity because it is difficult or uncomfortable."

I've really tried to do this with DD10. We're making progress:

My DD10 started a new level of figure skating today. It's a small group - only five skaters were there today - and the other four were above my DD in ability. The level is like... advanced regular skating but beginning figure skating (like they do backwards, one foot turns - that kind of thing).

So my DD is a) on her first day, b) the youngest one, and c) only skates once a week (you don't learn much skating only once per week). She got her BUTT KICKED. The other four were quite strong, and DD needed help from the coach when the others didn't.

If she had been put in that position even a year ago, she would have dropped her head and dissolved into tears (they know this about her at our club and at one point one of the supervisors skated by the group to check on her).

Not only did she persist in trying, she came off the ice with a smile on her face. I was stunned, amazed, and to say I was PROUD is the biggest understatement of the year.

(LOL they think they're teaching her skating, but they don't realize they're actually providing her with anxiety/ocd/perfectionism therapy ;p )

This didn't really help me, since I was forced to do baseball for years, while being horrible at it.

It did, however leave me with a lifelong dislike for sports in general and for much physical activity of any kind.

The key may be that the child has to have *some interest* in the activity, rather than being forced to do it.

So, you are doing an activity that you want to get better at, rather than be part of something that you just want to end.

Aw, of course you're not These are just complex kids.

His school sounds great. If his marks are all top notch, he might still not be challenged enough. It sounds positive though.

That's a good point. It could have been worded better...

This is also the ONLY way that you can purchase some non-wheat, non-Poaceae 'grains' (really pseudo-grains) which can be used as substitutes which are not likely to be heavily contaminated with nuts, soy, sesame seeds and wheat-relatives.
Some of them go rancid so quickly, though, that meant grinding only what you need in the recipe-- 1/2 c. 1 c. A coffee mill is ideal. But laborious. Teff tastes exactly like dirt, by the way. (Just so everyone knows. It's expensive dirt, though.)


Okay-- let's just add, here, that too much time on my hands wasn't the sole stressor in my life at that point. My rule is that we never-- ever-- talk about the pumpkin tapioca... er... "pancakes" (really, "pan-fried jello" is a closer but still fairly generous euphemism) episode when DD was two. I cried because that was all that I could come up with to safely feed my child for dinner, and believe me, I wouldn't have eaten them if every one had come with a twenty dollar bill. Add in a few trips to the emergency room every time I got anything "wrong" (and sometimes when I didn't, at least as far as I could sleuth using every available means and countless hours for weeks afterwards) and it's pretty clear why this was a recipe for MAJOR mental health problems of a perfectionism/OCD nature. Everything about this lifestyle encourages anxiety disorders.

One of the "rules" about living this way is that you check packaged food THREE TIMES; before purchase, as you put it in the pantry, and every time you use it. Yes, rules about the proper number of times to read something. LOL. Oh, and you should count to TEN slowly when you inject epinephrine. And carry more than one dose. And mix lot numbers in those doses. And track peak-flow numbers daily. Keep a food diary. Make notes on recipe modifications so that you know what works and what doesn't (all of my cookbooks have to have wide margins-- I look for it). And check the expiry dates on prescription medications in emergency bag weekly. Nothing from outside the house goes onto the kitchen table or counters. Wash your hands every time you come through an outside door.

I didn't actually have OCD, I don't think, but I sure looked pathological, and it was the first time I'd really felt the pull of how easy it would be to just give in to it and become some frenzied scurrying, endlessly-checking terrified creature making up rules about what I needed to do so that the universe wouldn't punish me or my family anymore. I was definitely stressed out and it showed.

I'm happy to say that I've (mostly) recovered, even though I still do most of those things above-- I just don't do them with the sort of awed FERVOR that I used to, and I don't compulsive clean to burn nervous energy. My spouse is less happy with my recovery, however. The house often looks like bomb filled with paper, food preparation, textbooks, laundry, and whatever my DD is into these days (right now it's jewelry findings and tools and beads) has gone off somewhere inside. I mean, no-- we're not hoarders or anything. But this is what homeschooling tends to result in. LOL.

Anyway. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

My DDs health issues have made me seem agoraphobic (terrified of her stealing or being given food so we just stayed home). It didn't take many iterations of playground/park disaster for me to not want to leave the house... imagine cute toddler tries to steal fruit in the playground... Crazed mother (me) looks up from aspy eldest child and/or adhd middle child and sees toddler stalking stranger's picnic - comes running (and screaming) to prevent ingestion. Confused strangers say "it's fine, she can share the watermelon". I say "no thank you she can't eat any fruit.", they smile and say "ok, would she like a strawberry instead?". I stare mutely, wondering in which universe is that not a fruit? Most people know not to share nuts with toddlers but cannot comprehend fruit being dangerous. I just look like a raving looney as I say "Don't touch the fruit-(some)vegetable-gluten-dairy-soy-nuts-egg-corn-etc thing! It will make you sick! Here, have a chip..."

Yeah. I had to be explicitly told that people think this way, btw. I am not a perfectionist, but my DH is and my DD is is developing some tendencies in certain areas. She sometimes does the bare minimum on writing assignments (she's a talented writer--if she tries) and has been avoiding or phoning in art (she's very artistic). I actually taught her the phrase "phone it in" this year to use as shorthand. She has tearfully admitted that sometimes she's afraid to try because if she tries her best and it's not great, that's devastating, but if you don't try hard and it's not good, your self esteem stays intact, because you know you didn't try.

My DH admits that he intentionally leaves things till the last minute so that time pressure can serve as an excuse for why it wasn't perfect, although he also says he does this so he doesn't have time to obsessively rework things again and again.

LOL. We could be cut from the same cloth.

My DW is the OCD in the house. I'm quite the opposite... there are some times where my very best is called for, but most of the time, it's, "Meh," because things are either not interesting, not important, or both. In order to get through a lot of these things, I deliberately leave them to the last minute, in order to give them a sense of urgency that they otherwise would not have had.

I also find I do my best work under pressure. And I quite enjoy it.

In order to keep this behavior from becoming career-limiting, I find myself setting my own deadlines. If someone comes to me with a request without a deadline ("Oh, whenever... no rush."), I'll give them a time in which I'll have it out to them. Otherwise, I'll probably forget all about it. If it's not important to them, it's certainly not important to me.

Contrast this attitude with DW's, in which everyday events are imminent crises, and things get interesting.