Not sure what to title this one. It seems to be a female-specific thing, in a lot of ways.

I'm kind of stumped, and while usually DH and I can, between the two of us (both HG+ and vastly different from one another in terms of experience/disposition) come up with answers for parenting issues/developmental challenges with our 13yo PG DD; this is a tough one for both of us.

Problem is this; we do not live in a large area. We like where we live, don't get me wrong. It leaves DD without much of a peer group, however.


She has friends. A few, I mean. She's fairly selective, and she's just genuinely NICE, which means that she doesn't go in for all of the typical backbiting girl gossip and drama at this age.

DD is now beginning to be interested in the opposite sex--- in "that" way. They are very clearly interested in HER, too. At least superficially, and if they notice that she's a girl to begin with... since she's one of those geek girls that hides in plain sight while they are all "just a bunch of guys." She's definitely a "pretty" girl, and she's socially like a candle flame, in that EVERYONE likes her. This grants her a social power which she never abuses; honestly, I'd say that she's nearly incapable of doing it-- even when provoked pretty severely. She's very quietly charismatic. Unfortunately, in a young teen, this combination of things is a pretty intimidating package.

She loves books and music and theater... and math and science...and social justice... and political science... and she enjoys talking to other people who "get" those things, too. Frequently, this is the adults running youth activities...

Her problem is threefold:

a) most of her intellectual peers are MG- HG kids 3-5yrs her senior. At 13, this is obviously a HUGE problem, and she really doesn't find typical agemates anything like a "match" for herself. Oh, she likes most people well enough to be friendly, and in fact, she's socially good enough that even those that she actively DISLIKES would say that she "likes" them at least casually... but most of them would say that they are "good friends" with her and she wouldn't characterize things that way, if that makes sense.

b) even the handful of kids that she finds meet her standards for a romantic interest or close friendship (which usually means HG+, 2-4 years older, and with a certain set of quirky interests and sense of humor)... all too frequently wind up "intimidated" by her to the point that they engage in one-upsmanship and passive-aggression with her when she lets them get close-- which is problematic of course since that also means that she's given them enough emotional capital to HURT her with it.

c) her emotional needs for friendship are in a different league than many of her peers-- either intellectual peers or (most especially) agemates. She's in the market for safe-havens/soulmates. Shallow isn't going to cut it for her-- while she's not looking to "get serious" about anyone and recognizes the limitations of being 13, she's also not interested in most of the typical teen social interactions. She wants someone that can hang with her altruism and social awareness... and she keeps coming up empty-empty-empty.

This has mostly been a problem with boyfriends. But it's also more than occasionally a problem with friend-friends, too. The older kids like her very well as long as she's willing to adopt a socially subservient position (pet/mascot). The younger kids like her fine, too-- but not in "that way" because she presents to most of them as really unattainable (and she is pretty emotionally unavailable since they don't interest her much).


DH doesn't really "get" what is happening here. I'm not sure that he CAN get it, honestly-- because his experience as a teen was as a bright and 'included' (jock) guy. He didn't NEED to be "not quite as bright" as his love interests at this age. Nobody cared if he was smart, and it didn't carry a price socially. He's also just not as "nice" as DD is... heck, I am not that nice, either.

My gut says that this is a matter of-- well, you know that tee shirt that says "Please let me be the person that my dog THINKS I am?" Well, it's like my DD has the problem that she is the dog, there. Only she can talk and people therefore feel that they have to "answer" for their sins to her. It doesn't matter that she isn't judgmental about it-- in fact, if anything, that seems to make it worse.

DD is so exasperated by this.

Every boy she's interested in figures out that she's WAY smarter than they are... and then plays games with her or drops her because she's threatening, even when she isn't DOING anything to be that way... I mean, what is she supposed to do?? Pretend that she's "struggling" with AP Lit, too?? Play the damsel in distress? Do something nasty or passive-aggressive to a peer? She finds that ridiculously disingenuous, and she isn't willing to do it. This has become a problem even with the HG kids, I'm sad to say; they think that it will be fine... but then they seem to realize that she's really that person-- there's no exaggeration, no pretense... she really IS that smart, pretty, nice, etc. She really does feel "too good" for them. At least that is what I think. Maybe I'm wrong and there's something that I'm missing, but I don't think so.


Naturally, she's deeply stung by these social rejections... and as often as not, bitterly disappointed in those peers who can't live up to-- well, whatever. She doesn't even get ANGRY (which, IMO, would be natural, since much of the time this kind of rejection is a bit socially humiliating); just sad/disappointed and hurt.

She sees herself as unlikable and unworthy in this respect, which I think is an unhealthy self-image to cultivate since I'm not convinced that it is her. There's only so many "it was him, not me" that someone can find plausible-- and she's definitely reached that limit, and this has become "it MUST be me, since I'm what all of these situations have in common."


My fear here is that she'll eventually hit upon the solution that I know (from experience) works at least some of the time-- that if you're willing to play certain games ( ) , (some of) those older boys WILL stay interested in you.





I'm interested in the experiences/perspectives of others who have either lived through this themselves (because hey-- maybe my experience was unusually bad or something, I dunno)... or have parented/are parenting a girl through this stage.

I'd love to know what to say to her.

So far, I've been trying to get her to view each relationship as a 'learning experience' and getting her to recognize 'healthy' versus 'unhealthy' relationship dynamics. It's just that it's starting to seem to her as though ALL of these relationships drift into the latter territory, and then it becomes a matter of "when to say that enough is enough" to abuse. I just hurt for her, truly. She hears a lot of "yeah, my feelings for you have kind of... evolved..." (Meaning, it seems, that "I thought that I could handle it, but that was when I also thought that nobody is REALLY that nice/smart/compassionate/unselfish; NOW, I'm just looking for ways to make you pay for how you make me feel about myself...")

I realize that a lot of this is a matter not of telling DD how to "change" to suit her peers...


but of her needing to wait it out until a few of them catch up to her.

I'd just like to know what to say about that, I guess.

Thirteen is a hideous age, socially, because most kids are asynchronous at this point. Add in a reason for more asynchrony and it's a complete mess.

I've been through it now with four kids, three EG, 1 PG/2e. The first simply had low standards and would get crushes on the most skeevy, unsuitable boys available. (Not that I'm suggesting this as an option, more of a "thank your lucky stars".) Dd#2 was a jock, and ended up dating relatively bright boys who could also carry on an intelligent conversation about the relative merits of Kentucky vs UNC. With #3-4 (who are almost 15), honestly, we've discouraged pairing off simply because, while they're bright, they're also socially on the younger end of things. And dating at a young age doesn't seem to have contributed anything particularly positive to their siblings' lives. One is like your daughter, with a few friends she mostly hangs with, and the other moves in a large herd of kids involved in the same (extremely time-consuming) extra-curricular. Many of them pair off (and change pairings as frequently as socks), but he just stays with the herd and is happy with doing so.

So insofar as being helpful with the dating advice, I'm probably not. But I thought it should be noted that, in general, the whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing at this age isn't necessarily a given.

Couldn't agree more with this.




I think the best thing for a girl this age to know is that it's NOT necessarily healthy or even normative to have had multiple romantic entanglements by the age of 13 (or 15, 16... maybe even older!)

It's good that you're trying to help her approach her breakups as learning experiences, but what is she actually learning here? Sounds from what you've said that her self-image is taking a beating, the relationships she ends up in are "unhealthy", and you even used the word "abuse"!

While it's totally normal for a 13-yo to become interested in the opposite sex, it's also reasonable and (IMO) most appropriate for parents of young teens to just disallow dating at this age. Honestly as far as learning about relationships, there's not much good that can come of it, and a lot of bad (as you've already related.)


I think it would be helpful to your DD if you could gather anecdotes from gifted women who have made it through their adolescent years and come out on the other side happy, successful, and well-adjusted, having finally found a peer group they can relate to.

If somebody could have made me understand in my early teens that it's REALLY okay to not have romantic relationships in one's teen years, I would have felt a lot more normal. (I had my first date at 18, and looking back I don't think my life would have been enriched at all by moving that particular milestone up by 5 years.)


Wondering... I thought your DD did online school, so where is she meeting all these guys?


ETA: I got so worked up about the dating, I realize I didn't address what you said about her need for regular friendships. I imagine you've already tried seeking out other PG kids for her to interact with, but since you said you don't live in an area with much of a peer group to choose from, keep looking further afield. Have you heard of this? http://pgr.shuttlepod.org/
There may be more like this but I haven't seen one... or maybe you could even start a gathering of your own!

I don't have any advice to offer, but I am thankful for your post. My dd is only 7, so not yet at that point re the boy/girl thing, but I see the beginnings of the friendship stuff you describe. Word for word your description of your daughter's approach relationships mirrors what I am seeing happen with my own daughter. I had hoped adding a few years might help, though know from my own experiences that the gap only seems to get wider :|

Good luck and thanks again, I look forward to seeing the replies you get.

Thank you to all who have replied.

Yes, the boy-girl stuff is new within the past six months or so... but the rest seems to just be an acceleration of several other trends that have been present a long time. She just wants to "belong" so badly-- but she also wants it to feel authentic/real. And it doesn't.

I have to wonder if the turn toward romantic relationships isn't more about "this is a way to get the greater emotional intimacy that I'm needing" rather than true desire for romantic relationships-- because DD's boundary conditions on physicality there are REALLY hard-core and very very much on the tame side, even for 13yo's. Hand-holding is her limit.


That is, that DD craves social interaction with peers, but it always seems to turn to ashes on her because mostly her peers just aren't (developmentally, I think?) ready for those kinds of relationships (speaking just in terms of platonic friendships, even).

Not even the cognitive/academic peers, mostly. Those who are tend to be unwilling to see DD (3-5 years younger) in that light. DD only knows a tiny handful of other PG kids-- and doesn't really share a lot of interests with them. They identify primarily on the basis of being singularities in a social sense, which of course can be the basis of a casual friendship or cordial acquaintance, but isn't really the stuff of close friendship. KWIM?


She has a pretty narrow group of face-to-face social experiences/people to select from by virtue of virtual schooling. It's basically just a quartet of social activities, and two of them share the same (relatively small) group of kids.

There are also disability-related challenges which make switching/trying new activities very problematic... okay, even "harrowing" is probably not an exaggeration in some cases.

I had to laugh a little about finding adult mentors that she can relate to. Well, this may be part of the problem; she does know quite a few HG+ adult women... and most of them are loners who have finally given up on 'normal' social interactions with the world at large and settled on an intimate partner who "gets" who they actually are and accepts them that way. Her most significant role model (me) is probably part of the problem there.

I was hanging around with people who were 4-10 years older than I was by the time I was 15-- and eventually I married one of them at age 19, too. The problem was that while I was asynchronous... that also meant that I wasn't done maturing. It really is like being a space alien in a lot of ways.

I've never forgotten having my first spouse wearily interrupting me during some musing with; "You're a FREAK. You know that, right?" (What?? Don't most people wonder about the pre-Raphaelites whilst forgetting to shed a lab coat when meeting their spouse--late-- for dinner at a restaurant?) I mean, sure-- in a teasing/affectionate tone, that might have been one thing. But trust me when I say that this was someone who had known me for six years at that point, and there was NO endearment intended. The tone was one of utter disgust. Yes, in retrospect, this was the moment that I should have known that nothing could save that relationship.

Let's just say that spouse 2.0 would NEVER say that to me.

My DH and I have acquaintances-- and we have one another. We are our best friends. That may be why her template seems to be skewed toward friendships with this additional component. Make no mistake, we're NOT allowing "dating" at this age. No way, no how. Group activities without parental supervision? Well, yes-- in limited and very public venues, yes.

You are going to need to find her a way to get her what she needs in terms of peers.

Thank you, Jon. I believe that is the underlying issue feeding this, too.

Well, I can't necessarily help - but I can give my own experience as a former 13-year-old, who is now relatively socially satisfied.

13 sucks. It does get better. I was in 8th grade at a tiny rural school with no peers, really. My parents gave me a folder with a cartoon character on a mountaintop saying "It's lonely at the top." I'm sure the artist thought it was a boast, but I used to hug the folder and cry. The high school was a little bigger but no better in that way. I did find friends, if not folks that could keep up with me. I didn't have anyone close enough to consider dating them.

Things got much better in college. I lucked out - with no one around me to help me pick a top-end school, I still found one and went there. It was barely bigger than my high school, in undergrads, but *everyone* there was close enough to my level that I had *choices*. For the first time, I met people as far beyond me as I was beyond my high school honors classmates. And they were just as happy to meet me!

I met DH there, and we still have a group of 10-20 alum friends that we have a close community with - living in the same area and seeing each other weekly. Many more of our group are more loosely associated and come to holiday parties and such, or visit the whole group when they come from out of town. Our kids are growing up like cousins. No one showed us this model. We created it ourselves because it was important to us.

Among the many HG+ people I know now, the ones who were least isolated before college had been to summer talent search programs. Several had been to the same one, some to others, but I get the impression that which one it was mattered much less than the going. Some considered their camp friends their 'lifeline' during the school year, and kept correspondence relationships with them that still survive today.

While I realize that a summer camp may not be safe for your DD, and summer is far away in any case, how about an online course with a virtual classroom component and high entrance requirements, like CTY or EPGY/OHS? Friendship-by-skype could help a lot, if you can just find the right person for the connection. My kids are younger and less different from their neighbors, so I have no experience here, but it's certainly something I'd consider.

I hope things will look up soon.

This isn't exactly helpful, but... is it possible that the object of interest suddenly realizes that he's talking to a much younger girl? This would have weirded out boys in my HS badly, and much more as a dating relationship than as a member-of-club friendship. As I recall, a girl had to be at least 16 or 17 to be considered relationship material for a boy 3-4 years her senior, even if she was always around and had the same interests, etc. Just another possibility for cause.

My instincts say that finding a couple of peer friends closer to her chronological age is important here.

I have a 17 year old daughter, also PG and very beautiful. Not as socially adept as yours, but certainly the boys have flocked around her for the past few years. My D also spends a lot of time on activities that have mostly boys involved (robotics and Quiz Bowl), so that makes it even more interesting. She has really found no "significant other" material in that group, although she gets asked out pretty often.

My best advice to you on helping her find social peers is to send her to Davidson THINK next summer. That is where my D found age-mates who could keep up, both friends and possible "significant others". One boy has been pursuing her since she first went three years ago, although she just wants to be friends with him. Another goes to a boarding school on the east coast, and they have standing weekly phone calls that have gone on for two years. They all have a lot of contact online, so even though they do not live near by, the connections are pretty strong. She says they are platonic, but I sort of think there is more there than that...

One wants to be aware there is an increased risk of dating adults. I did at 17 (34, a summer coworker, great relationship that we both knew wouldn't go beyond the summer). A good EG friend dated a teacher though, and regrets it. Parents were not told, while we did both mention the tamer same age dates/crushes etc.

PGR could be a good fit.

Well you should all gang up and be "freaks" together! (Or are these all just family members you're referring to?)

Your story about your first husband makes me very sad. I've gotten a similar reaction from people before, but thankfully no one particularly close to me, and my husband is as much of a freak as I am (if not more).

We do, though, have friends. But we've always lived in or very near large cities, so there's just more to choose from. My DH even had (by chance, it seems) a nice cohort of HG+ friends throughout his school years, and went to "nerd camp" where he met some people he still keeps in touch with. We both received full-ride academic scholarships so those came with a peer group that included some people who were smarter than we are. Unfortunately, due to moving around a few times, we don't have the awesome group of alum friends ljoy mentions.

If you're not finding what she needs with what you're doing now, cast a wider net. If going to a camp or retreat isn't viable for your DD, then maybe... set up a chat room for PG youth? You could advertise it here and on the Davidson FB page, and send it to all the summer talent search programs or PG camps you can find. Surely there are others her age in the same boat, it's just a matter of finding them.

We are quite serious about sticking together, now that we've found each other. We live in a large city so that we can all be employed. We live so close together because that's where we shopped for a place to live. I might consider moving, but probably only to somewhere I already have a network connection to. It takes a commitment.

And we do love being freaks together.

ETA: ok, that makes it sound like we present a united front and make only group decisions, which we don't. One couple after another has just made small choices, then large ones, that allow our group to exist.

Thank you to everyone for the responses. This is such helpful food for thought.



I think that DH and I need to talk things over and see what we can figure out in order to offer DD some ways to meet a wider circle of more-like-true peers. We could drive to {Large Regional City} once a month or so, but more often than that probably just isn't feasible.

If only DD were still interested in Chess or Robotics.

Quiz Bowl, Academic Decathlon, debate, and fencing are other activities where your D might meet more like-minded friends (but nothing like Davidson THINK friends, I have to say).

What she would really like is a hard-core literature discussion group or book club where her age would be completely irrelevant.

Debate is definitely up her alley, but she has kind of gotten frustrated with the lack of 'serious' debate opportunities within her own school. Good idea to explore what else is out there with that one.

I know that there is a good fencing academy in the western burbs of {BigLocalMetropolis}, but as noted, that simply cannot be a weekly drive for us. It's about 90 minutes each way without traffic.

I'm pretty sure that Toastmasters has a youth debate / public speaking program that might be worth investigating.

DH did Model UN in high school. It might fit with the social justice side of your DD.

This is a good one.

This is a good idea - the Model UN team also travels, though. I don't know if that would fit in with her disability issues or not. If she could make it work, I think it would help her a lot with meeting other kids.

I feel for your dd. I was fortunate to have a very close girl friend in MS/HS which made it bearable. I now understand why I felt such a strong connection to this one particular boy who was 4 years older, and I just lived for the times when he would come home from college and make the effort to see me. It was platonic, (well, on his part, lol!) until the summer I turned 18. It was well-worth waiting for! (as was the summer I turned 22--same person. alas, I was an idiot...) So, it doesn't help her now at all, but it may just be a matter of waiting it out for a few more years.

In the meantime, I think something like CTY, Yunasa (through IEA), Davidson or ? could be just what she needs. I think those deep relationships are really fostered when away from home together 24/7. I hope that something like that would eventually be possible for her. I do feel her pain though...even as an adult. While it is tough now it is good that she knows herself so well and knows what it is she wants from another person in a relationship and to recognize that when it comes.

I commiserate with your daughter as an adult. I didn't bother dating until university, when a 3+ year age difference with class colleagues helped me meet my now-husband. Over the years, I've had many friendly acquaintances (other people's "good friends") because, like your husband, I'm athletically inclined and extroverted. I'd count 3 friends among those, including my husband, who truly "get" me and vice-versa.

I don't think that that pattern of socialization, or the paradigm of life-mates that you describe, is atypical for HG+ individuals. Assortative soulmating-- platonic and otherwise-- appears to be our dominant strategy. Frankly, it's just a reality that stems from being part of a statistically rare group. My take is that our role, as parents, is to instill self-confidence and self-esteem in our children so that they can independently weather the inevitable loneliness that comes with being...different. Your daughter sounds wonderfully well-adjusted, so this is probably redundant.

On advice for words to share with a 13-year-old, the following comes to mind, though it may or may not jive with your thinking:

The headmistress at my all-girls high school made a provocative statement in the fervour before prom that has stuck with me over the years: "Men are like handbags; they can bring you enjoyment, but they aren't necessary." (I think the statement could equally be reversed wih a gender-appropriate analogy for an all-boys audience.)

On opportunities to meet peers, beyond the great ideas listed, many universities offer intensive spring break/summer sessions for high school students. Maybe you could advocate for early placement in an extracurricular forum like those?

Yes, but, depending on the person, without a certain number of close friends, you may or may not be able to function adequately.

I don't think this is an issue of self-confidence and self-esteem as much as it is a function of being human and having social needs.

A fair point. My statement was biased by personal preference.

Thank you again to everyone who has responded. I think that this is a real set of problems that is both about asynchrony and about being statistically rare, as aquinas has noted.

It's just difficult to know when/how to intervene as a parent.

Some of this is about trying to get a handle on which child I'm parenting when, if that makes sense. Am I parenting the emotional side of my child, who is about 14 in her reasoning, and about 17 in her needs, and some variable/unknown age in her responses to input? Or is it the cognitive side of her? Or is it the physical one?

The answers change situationally and occasionally even involve some strange and ill-defined cocktail of things. It's easy enough to say to a 13yo "You're too young for _____." But at the same time, if it's a genuine need based on a true area of precosity (obviously I'm not talking about physical/sensual aspects here, but emotional/social ones and certainly cognitive ones), that's an overly simplistic answer that ignores a real set of needs.

I'm so glad that I have this forum to bounce this stuff off of. Thank you.