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We had our 6 yo dd tested to see if she would qualify for the district's gifted program (self-contained class) that starts in 2nd grade. I went into it with doubts, dreading it actually, thinking she would be somewhere on the cut off for qualifying. I think I have received the shock of my life to be quite honest. Turns out she is highly gifted and now I'm panicking.

As a toddler she started out very precocious and driven and was amazing everyone with the things she learned on her own and the drive for wanting to learn new things. Around the time she entered pre-k a year early as a 3 yo she started to really slow down and so I began to question her giftedness.

Last year in kindergarten she just seemed to blend in with everyone else except in reading where she is clearly advanced. They primarily focused on reading and writing and she did well except her teacher commented at how she has frustration at times when it comes to her writing output. She can't seem to work the pencil at the same pace as her brain but that it would come eventually. They did very little math (ipad games of 1+3, etc.. at center time) At circle time she would actually turn her back to the class (when the teacher would be teaching something) and apparently be in her own little world. She would never raise her hand, she's rather shy and timid in school. She is not a trouble maker and is a model student.

At home it's another story. She has countless temper tantrums when she gets frustrated and involves screaming, slamming doors, and stomping. She can be very explosive. But she is likewise passionate when she is happy or feeling compassion for somebody. When friends are over she often times wants to do things such as write stories, play school/teach them and they aren't interested which also causes her frustration. She also refuses to play video games or board games b/c she doesn't want to lose. Because of this she also didn't compete the first year of swim team (liked practices but didn't want to race). I finally convinced her it's okay to race and all that matters is that she does her best.

So with that said here are her WISC-IV results:

FSIQ 149 (99.9%)


Similarities 13
Vocabulary 15
Comprehension 14
VCI
124 (95%)


Block Design 17
Matrix Reasoning 19
Picture Concepts 19
PRI
151 (>99.9%)


Digit Span 19
Letter/Numb Seq 15
WMI
141 (99.7%)


Coding 10
Symbol Search 14
PSI
112 (79%)

*Extended norms were used for Matrix Reasoning, Picture Concepts, and Digit Span.


The psychologists remarks during testing were that if she was watched directly my dd would give impulsive responses. But if she pretended to be busy on her laptop dd would perform better and put more thought into her answers. She was shy and took time to draw her out even after the get to know her session which makes me wonder if the verbal portion may have been given first.

Her recommendations are that she move to 2nd grade for math and /or reading. We had a meeting with the teacher but didn't have the official report yet so we didn't give actual numbers. Just said that the psych recommended she move for math and reading. The teacher said that the school doesn't do this (which isn't the norm for the district b/c I have been in schools where younger kids move up for math but we are at a magnet and I guess they can do things how they want). The teacher said she will differentiate for her in the classroom with math using Sunshine Math. She commented how she had a boy last year that she did this for who is now in the gifted program for 2nd grade.

My only concern is that dd will not do more than what is asked, I don't think she wants to stand out from her peer group in the classroom. She will just blend in and fly under the radar. At home she has told me that she wants to do reports... she has told me this past summer without me ever mentioning skipping that she wants to go to 2nd grade instead of 1st. So I feel she is unhappy to some extent where she is at. And I think it shows now that school is back in session and the tantrums have increased in addition to her night terrors, sleep walking and nightmares.

Should I be concerned about the gap between her VCI and her PRI?

And finally do you think I should present the results to the teacher and/or school to show them her ability? Or should I wait and see what the teacher's plan for differentiation will be?


*Oh, and a question about the extended norms.... I understand that means she hit the ceilings on those subtests. But does the score of 19 mean that her score for those subtests were possibly 18 and went up to 19? Or that it is higher than 19 with the extended norms but still only written down as 19? I hope that question makes sense.
First off, take a deep breath; there is no need to panic. smile Your kiddo is still the same delightful, bright, sometimes explosive child she was before these numbers. You just have some more data that will help you in planning your kiddo's education. Second, when you have time, apply to DYS. Third, random thoughts:

Your story is similar to my kiddo's. Have you considered skipping first grade altogether? With scores as high as your DD's, even if they allowed her to go up one subject, it may not be enough, and it certainly won't be enough for her when she's bsack with the rest of the 1st graders for the rest of the day. We found that even skipping first wasn't quite enough, because our kiddo learned faster and still needed differentiation. It was easier for the 2nd grade teachers to differentiate.

I would contact the school. We had luck contacing the gifted coordinator and the school psychologist, because they understood how out there the numbers were. The school then did further testing on their own, including achievement testing. It took them seeing our son's MAP results to believe he was out there and needed to skip 1st. Tests like MAP are great because the school can compare your kiddo's scores with similar kids and hopefully place her with kids at her level.

Check out the Iowa Acceleration Scale, and ask the school if they use that. It has several objective sections to determine if a skip is appropriate.

I have to go now, but I'll try to check back with more resources.... good luck! And be prepared for a lot of advocacy. Try to remember to keep the school on your side - this is a team effort.

ETA - I'll let those more knowledgeable about testing answer your other questions. IBut think you are lucky you found a tester who figured out how to work with your kiddo!
Posted By: knute974 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/10/12 03:56 PM
Re your extended norm question, take a look at the Wisc-IV Technical report #7
http://www.pearsonassessments.com/N...C-8E4A114F7E1F/0/WISCIV_TechReport_7.pdf
Typically, 19 is the top scaled score for each subtest. The report says that it maybe appropriate to consider extended norms for some 18s (not sure when this applies).
Did your psychologist give you the raw subtest scores? If he/she did then you can use the report to figure out how far beyond 19 your kid goes.
Posted By: Iucounu Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/10/12 04:00 PM
You shouldn't be concerned about the gap between VCI and PRI. The tantrums, perfectionism, etc. are not unusual for the highly gifted.

Sunshine Math will probably be insufficient for your daughter-- it's fairly small amounts of problem solving that aren't very difficult, and teachers tend to use it to stuff children in the corner with worksheets. What your daughter most likely needs is to be taught to her proper level of understanding and ability, not taught based on her age with some extra worksheets. In other words, if she's mastered single-digit addition, no amount of single-digit addition with extra worksheets is appropriate.

Did the tester also calculate a GAI? If so it would be even higher than the FSIQ, so might help in advocacy.
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
My only concern is that dd will not do more than what is asked, I don't think she wants to stand out from her peer group in the classroom. She will just blend in and fly under the radar.

My DD is the exact same way. It's beyond frustrating and I have no idea what to do about it. I think it's a combo of wanting to fit in and being afraid that if she attempts more challenging work that she might fail. So no suggestions here, just sympathy. Oh, and if she's a kid who's content to fly under the radar you should probably bring up the results to the school sooner rather than later because chances are the teacher will end up underestimating her ability. Honestly, whatever the teacher has planned for differentiation it is likely it won't be sufficient for your DD. The fact that you are seeing an increase in tantrums and sleep issues tells me she is probably frustrated in school. Is she the sort of kid who will tell you what's on her mind? If so, I would ask her how she feels about school and see what she says. It sounds like some changes need to be made at school asap so things don't deteriorate further. Would the school consider a grade skip?
Just noticed that your GT program starts in second. I would think that would be a good fit for your DD this year. Get on your advocacy hat!
I wouldn't worry about the gap in VIQ vs PRI, but I would watch the written output challenges given her relatively "low" coding score. Our ds has the same type of spread in coding, had frustration with slow written output at school in K/1 *and* had some pretty severe tantruming, stomping of feet, etc at home in K/1 while being a model student at school. We didn't make any connections until 2nd grade when the written output demands increased significantly and ultimately we discovered through a full neuropsych eval that he is dysgraphic.

Re school for this year, I'd think through what you want for your dd (grade skip, differentiation, etc) and then take the report to the school and advocate for it.

Best wishes,

polarbear
Sorry to keep randomly commenting! But I thought of something else. Your kid sounds a lot like mine, not wanting to stick out. I think in some ways this makes advocacy a bit harder, as the teachers do not always see what your kid can do. Testing becomes much more important then. Unfortunately, most people are unfamiliar with those really high IQ scores and what it means, so you'll have to work with the schools to get some testing with tests they are familiar with. When they can see how "out there" your kiddo is based on their own tests, they will hopefully start to make exceptions. Even though you see scores like these on this particular board, do not mistake them for being common - they are very unusual.

Also, remember to keep in mind that you're going for the "least-worst" education fit for your kiddo. And you're lucky to know early on that your kiddo's needs are unusual. Sometimes school situations with kids like these only work out for a while --maybe a year, maybe six months. Hopefully longer, but you never know. You'll have to keep an eye out for your "not wanting to stand out kid" to see how things are going based on what you know about her. And you may want to start researching all the school options in your area or in reasonable driving distance. Are there any schools for HG kids? Can you homeschool or partial homeschool if necessary? (Homeschooling, if possible, is a nice thing to have in your back pocket - it makes advocacy easier if it's an option, as you don't think you have no other choices.)
Posted By: CCN Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/10/12 04:53 PM
You sound like you followed my daughter around when she was 6 and wrote about her... lol... they're SO much alike.

Good for you for getting her tested. I didn't - my own gifted experience resulted in childhood isolation (I was never accelerated or placed in a gifted program) - so instead I tried to "normalize" my daughter (enrolled her in sports, arts, etc). Not to say that this was totally bad - being well rounded never hurts a person - but by the time she got to school she'd mastered the "chameleon" strategy of hiding her gifts (except for math - she can't resist - she adores it too much smile ) Meanwhile I heard over and over and over again (and again, lol) from her teachers that she had trouble focusing, trouble paying attention, trouble finishing her work, etc etc. Head in the clouds, needs constant reminders, on and on. She's in French Immersion at least so it wasn't a total cakewalk - she has to at least pay attention to that.

Anyway, I think you're off to a great start. Don't panic. Speaking as a HG person myself, the most important thing you can provide for her (which my parents provided for me) is unconditional love and support smile Am I as far ahead in life as I would have been if I'd been accelerated? No. Have I reached my full potential? No. Am I well adjusted and happy? Yes.

Carry on with your efforts - but take a moment to relax and calm the worry. It'll all be fine. You'll see smile
Posted By: Old Dad Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/10/12 05:31 PM
Many gifted students "Dumb down" to fit in, especially in early ages when fitting in is more important to them. Feeling they need to do so itself can be frustrating.

Extra work or worksheets that simply reinforce math facts or crossword searches on the topic one has already mastered is also frustrating. We most often refer to them in our household as "Busy work" teachers give advanced students to keep them busy while they teach down the center line. We once had at the start of the next school year a teacher who want to start the "Math facts" system (Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division timed tests) all over again even if the students had already mastered them "Just to make sure." (and we "Made sure" that didn't happen)

Reinforce with your child that it's okay to be different than others, in fact, that's what makes life interesting. Explain that everyone has their strengths and challenges, they're just different for everyone. It's okay to stand out and there are lots of very smart people in the world and there is room and appreciation for all of them.

You might also look for positive ways to let frustration out. Plenty of exercise certainly made a difference for our eldest DS in that manner.
Posted By: Iucounu Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/10/12 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Old Dad
We once had at the start of the next school year a teacher who want to start the "Math facts" system (Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division timed tests) all over again even if the students had already mastered them "Just to make sure." (and we "Made sure" that didn't happen)
laugh
An update of sorts. I called the district coordinator for the G&T program. The schools offer the Cogat in September for qualification purposes for the program, in addition to filling out an application and getting recommendations from teachers. I wanted to know if my dd didn't take the Cogat if that would affect her ability to get into the program on her WISC-IV from the private psychologist alone. The coordinator asked if she was near the 130 mark and when I told her the score she was pretty much speechless and said I need to call N**** at our school who is in charge of making sure kids' needs are being met and meet with her regarding my dd's score and she even said that sometimes a grade skip is warranted. I still don't know how I feel about that, especially since we have no achievement scores to see where she stands at the moment. I have really done very little with her at home. Everything is at her will/pace and decides on her own what she wants to do. So while she has done some advanced math I just don't really know what she is capable of. I do feel, however, that if she were instructed in a classroom at a faster pace and higher level she would pick it up very quickly.

While I'm very happy with her strengths and abilities I can't help but feel overwhelmed. My older dd who is 9 is dyslexic and I have been battling the school for months to get her an IEP or 504 and they have refused. My focus and energy has been on advocating for her. I just thought younger dd was a walk in the park, MG or very bright and schooling options wouldn't be an issue or cause for concern. Now I'm realizing she has been "dumbing" herself down to fit in and not striving for her potential and we have been seeing the aftermath of her frustrations at home in the form of temper tantrums and possibly her night terrors and sleepwalking.

So my plan now is to schedule a meeting with N***, dd#2's teacher, and whoever they feel should be present to just go over the psychologists report, recommendations, and dd's strengths and weaknesses. Maybe their opinion on going to 2nd grade for math will change after seeing the report.

Originally Posted by LittleCherub
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
So with that said here are her WISC-IV results:

FSIQ 149 (99.9%)


Similarities 13
Vocabulary 15
Comprehension 14
VCI
124 (95%)


Block Design 17
Matrix Reasoning 19
Picture Concepts 19
PRI
151 (>99.9%)


Digit Span 19
Letter/Numb Seq 15
WMI
141 (99.7%)


Coding 10
Symbol Search 14
PSI
112 (79%)

*Extended norms were used for Matrix Reasoning, Picture Concepts, and Digit Span.

She's definitely HG+, especially with his high PRI. Regarding the scores, the subtest scores total doesn't seem to yield a FSIQ 149. Is it possible that the subtest scores were before the use of extended norms and the FSIQ was calculated after the extended norms were applied? Maybe it's a good idea to request the raw scores? Regardless, she definitely needs quite some acceleration/differentiation at school.

I think that's what was done. Is there any way to tell how far above 19 she scored? Or are the raw scores the only way to know?
Originally Posted by st pauli girl
First off, take a deep breath; there is no need to panic. smile Your kiddo is still the same delightful, bright, sometimes explosive child she was before these numbers. You just have some more data that will help you in planning your kiddo's education. Second, when you have time, apply to DYS. Third, random thoughts:

Your story is similar to my kiddo's. Have you considered skipping first grade altogether? With scores as high as your DD's, even if they allowed her to go up one subject, it may not be enough, and it certainly won't be enough for her when she's bsack with the rest of the 1st graders for the rest of the day. We found that even skipping first wasn't quite enough, because our kiddo learned faster and still needed differentiation. It was easier for the 2nd grade teachers to differentiate.

I would contact the school. We had luck contacing the gifted coordinator and the school psychologist, because they understood how out there the numbers were. The school then did further testing on their own, including achievement testing. It took them seeing our son's MAP results to believe he was out there and needed to skip 1st. Tests like MAP are great because the school can compare your kiddo's scores with similar kids and hopefully place her with kids at her level.

Check out the Iowa Acceleration Scale, and ask the school if they use that. It has several objective sections to determine if a skip is appropriate.

I have to go now, but I'll try to check back with more resources.... good luck! And be prepared for a lot of advocacy. Try to remember to keep the school on your side - this is a team effort.

ETA - I'll let those more knowledgeable about testing answer your other questions. IBut think you are lucky you found a tester who figured out how to work with your kiddo!

We are at a small magnet school so they don't have a lot of staff in the school. There is a psychologist who is there 1 day a week. And I have little faith in the learning specialist as she has no clue as to how to help my older dd who has dyslexia.

When older dd was diagnosed with dyslexia by the children's hospital the school did their own testing in addition to the report by children's. They decided that dd didn't qualify for an IEP or 504 and pretty much disregarded children's diagnosis and report. The psychologist (no longer at the school this year thank goodness... she actually rolled her eyes at the meeting we had last spring) didn't have any concerns about her subtest discrepancies or lower score compared to the WISC-IV she had done 2 years prior. I personally have no faith in them testing any of my children at this point and I will refuse to let them test dd #2. If they insist on achievement testing I will return to the psychologist who tested dd#2 privately. She is far more experienced with gifted children (worked in the school district as the G&T coordinator/psychologist for 15+ years).

Originally Posted by knute974
Re your extended norm question, take a look at the Wisc-IV Technical report #7
http://www.pearsonassessments.com/N...C-8E4A114F7E1F/0/WISCIV_TechReport_7.pdf
Typically, 19 is the top scaled score for each subtest. The report says that it maybe appropriate to consider extended norms for some 18s (not sure when this applies).
Did your psychologist give you the raw subtest scores? If he/she did then you can use the report to figure out how far beyond 19 your kid goes.

I don't have the raw scores. Is it common for parents to ask for them?
Originally Posted by Iucounu
You shouldn't be concerned about the gap between VCI and PRI. The tantrums, perfectionism, etc. are not unusual for the highly gifted.

Sunshine Math will probably be insufficient for your daughter-- it's fairly small amounts of problem solving that aren't very difficult, and teachers tend to use it to stuff children in the corner with worksheets. What your daughter most likely needs is to be taught to her proper level of understanding and ability, not taught based on her age with some extra worksheets. In other words, if she's mastered single-digit addition, no amount of single-digit addition with extra worksheets is appropriate.

Did the tester also calculate a GAI? If so it would be even higher than the FSIQ, so might help in advocacy.

You are right and in the psychologist's report she actually recommends avoiding repetitive worksheets and 'busy work'.

I believe the GAI can't be calculated due to the large discrepancy between the VCI and PRI, but this is all very new to me so I could be wrong. Perhaps somebody else more knowledgeable with the WISC can chime in on this to verify.
Posted By: 1111 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/12/12 03:21 PM
I agree with Dottie. Is there a way you can have an achievement test done like the WJ?

We had DS4 tested this past summer and while we did get a PG result from testing it is the ACHIEVEMENT scores that I feel are the most valuable for me to be able to advocate for him in school and try to make the right decisions.
Originally Posted by Dottie
The FSIQ without extended norms, would be 141, for what that's worth. The GAI would be 146. The extended norms seem to raise her subtest score by 10 or 11 points (there are two totals that give a FSIQ of 149). These 10 points are split amongst the three 19's. It's impossible to say at this point whether one subtest was 28 and the other two 20's, or some more balanced combo. Assuming a fair split, her 19's would have moved to the 22-23 range. Impressive! It's also impossible to give her extended GAI, as Digit Span doesn't feed into that, and at least one of those extended subtest points went there.

Did they do achievement data? That's a very important piece of the decision making. A comprehensive test like the WIAT or the WJ would really help with the decision making.

Good luck! I don't have any tangible advice, but wanted to weigh in on the numbers.

Thank you so much for figuring that out for me the best you could. smile So if I ask the psychologist for the raw scores in those subtests it will tell me how far above 19 she went? I'm curious to know where those 10 or 11 points came from.

So does this mean her actual iq is 141 or is it still 149?

And thank you for letting me know about the test order, so I'm nearly certain her lower VCI has nothing to do with shyness.

I think you guys are right about achievement testing being important in advocating for subject acceleration. I'm thinking she wouldn't be as advanced in achievement testing as she is with her IQ score. We really don't do any enrichment or school work outside of school. Only time is if I'm working with older dd and younger dd wants to do a workbook page or two on her own. Other than that she just enjoys reading and writing stories.

Last week was the first week of school and this evening she is upset about going back to school tomorrow. She has rarely complained about going to school and I'm surprised she's already not wanting to go. She had been looking forward to school for nearly a month.
Originally Posted by Dottie
I'd ask for raw scores, or the actual extended scaled scores. There should then be an extended PRI, WMI, and GAI to go along with the extended FSIQ!

As for her "real" IQ? Good question. The truth is surely in there somewhere! Given the scatter though, it's probably more in the middle. Hard to say. Achievement data would be extremely helpful, and I wouldn't accelerate too far without that, particularly with the quoted VCI. VCI is often correlated with school success. If it's artificially low, all bets are off, smile . Good luck! I personally think elementary is the hardest for HG+ children.

So the 141 for WMI and 151 for the PRI aren't calculated with the extended norms?

Thanks again for all your help and advice!
One more question, if I wanted to apply for DYS would she still qualify? Thanks!
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/13/12 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
One more question, if I wanted to apply for DYS would she still qualify? Thanks!
Her IQ scores are qualifying. Now you just need those achievement scores or a strong portfolio.
@Master of None

Lots of good info and ideas! You are right that it is important to listen, apparently I haven't been doing that. She had mentioned the grade skip prior to wisc testing and I, honestly, didn't take her seriously b/c I just didn't see her as that gifted. I'm feeling bad about that now. I'm definitely going to listen more and ask her some of the questions you suggested to get a feel for why she feels that way.

Since school has restarted I did ask her why she doesn't want to go and she mostly says it's too long, her words "It's 7 hours mom!" and then at times she will say it's not interesting or she says she'd rather be at her desk more than circle time. She says she wants to do more art. She also said that she would like to do a report and her topic would be on how dvds are made with tiny little bumps that are smaller than the tip of a hair. LOL She said she asked her teacher if she could do a report and the teacher said not yet. The fact that she asked is huge b/c she is shy and slow to warm up to new people. So I'm proud of her effort.

I'm still waiting to her back from the psychologist about the raw scores before scheduling a meeting. But I'm wondering if knowing how far above 19 she went on those subtests even really matter for that meeting. Will they even understand what that means, heck, I'm not sure I even understand completely what hitting the ceiling means. But I would like to know what was her limit for each subtest.

Originally Posted by Cricket2
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
One more question, if I wanted to apply for DYS would she still qualify? Thanks!
Her IQ scores are qualifying. Now you just need those achievement scores or a strong portfolio.

Ok, thanks!
Originally Posted by Dottie
Yes, the currently quoted PRI and WMI are using the 19's, not an extension.


Ok, thanks! I love numbers too, just don't know too much about the WISC and how things are calculated.
Originally Posted by polarbear
I wouldn't worry about the gap in VIQ vs PRI, but I would watch the written output challenges given her relatively "low" coding score. Our ds has the same type of spread in coding, had frustration with slow written output at school in K/1 *and* had some pretty severe tantruming, stomping of feet, etc at home in K/1 while being a model student at school. We didn't make any connections until 2nd grade when the written output demands increased significantly and ultimately we discovered through a full neuropsych eval that he is dysgraphic.

Re school for this year, I'd think through what you want for your dd (grade skip, differentiation, etc) and then take the report to the school and advocate for it.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Meant to reply to this earlier and missed it... sorry!

Thank you for the heads up about the writing output. Other than her kindergarten teacher's comment about her showing frustration last year I don't really see it as a big issue, at home anyway. Writing stories is her favorite thing to do and while it may not be the neatest she seems to write freely (fluidly) and not care to much about it being perfect nor showing any frustration at home. I don't think she is average in her writing capabilities (advanced in spelling though) and I'm guessing it will improve as she gets a little older. But as you suggested, I will be on the lookout down the road for any difficulties when she gets to the higher grades. Thanks!
Posted By: knute974 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/14/12 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
I'm still waiting to her back from the psychologist about the raw scores before scheduling a meeting. But I'm wondering if knowing how far above 19 she went on those subtests even really matter for that meeting. Will they even understand what that means, heck, I'm not sure I even understand completely what hitting the ceiling means. But I would like to know what was her limit for each subtest.


It's probably not going to matter for the school meeting. You already have a PRI score that is very high. Still, I understand the desire to "know." I felt that way and that was my first post to this forum. Like your DD, our DD's original score was already high enough for DYS and just about everything else. A few years down the road, we haven't ever had a need to use the extended norm score versus the "lower" original score. I guess my message is satisfy your curiosity but don't expect it to make a huge practical difference.
@knute

You're right and I decided to have the meeting without it. The principal didn't even get what an IQ score really measures. Her assumption was that maybe younger dd learned stuff b/c I work so much with older dd who is dyslexic (which is actually untrue, if anything I feel like I haven't given younger dd the attention she equally deserves b/c I've been so busy with older dd). Yet, my dyslexic dd, according to their tests, has an average IQ.
I had a meeting yesterday with N***, and the principal. Didn't go that well and I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering how I can't seem to get appropriate help for my older dd in the form of remediation. I just thought since they do have the G&T program at their school that they might be a bit more proactive and understanding to my plight. But ultimately they just sort of 'house' the program for the district along with a few other schools and I don't think they really have a say in the program and how it's funded/run, etc... and are no more educated when it comes to gifted children than any other regular public school in the country.

When a principal starts out with "it's not that we don't believe you" it can never be good. And she seems to think a high IQ score can be achieved by doing workbooks or overhearing lessons with older dd. I thought I would get somewhere when N*** suggested I email her the report from the psychologist. Sent the report to her and CC'ed the principal along with asking for suggestions on how we can differentiate for my dd in the classroom since they don't believe in accelerating. N***'s reply via email was "Thanks for the information. Let's keep in touch." What is that supposed to mean?

So at this point I'm gonna just keep working with the teacher who I love more and more each day) and take things as they come. I think she is my best partner until the G&T program starts next year.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/15/12 03:12 PM
Bummer, I'm sorry. I do find that many educators have no idea what IQ scores measure nor the difference btwn levels of giftedness and how rare HG-PG is in their population. I had a similar conversation with the GT coordinator at our neighborhood school re my dd11 when we were considering other options for her late in elementary. She assured me that she had many students like her and didn't seem to understand the difference btwn 99.9th composite IQ vs. 95th percentile in one area on the CogAT: the 95th in one area on the CogAT kids had very similar scores in her estimation.

The other thing we found was that, at least at our neighborhood school, there is a lot of retesting on group ability tests going on and a lot of prep for these tests. B/c the scores on these group tests change a lot when prepping occurs and b/c they also tend to jump around when kids are retested until they hit that magic 95th number, educators often feel that IQ tests, like the group tests, aren't measuring something innately different so much as the kid having been worked with like your principal seemed to infer.

Ultimately, we've found that with HG+ kid(s), it sometimes isn't a straight road. You may start somewhere and have to change schools later or something else. I try to follow the advice my dd13's GT teacher gave me when we were looking @ her skipping 5th grade: do what's best for her right now. Right then, the grade skip was the right thing and, fortunately, it has turned out to be good long-term as well.

Right now, if the best you're going to get is the classroom teacher differentiating, then you'll have to work with her to find ways to make the differentiation good enough. Later it might be something else. Later the principal might change, the GT program might change, you may wind up working directly with the district GT coordinator for accommodations, who knows.

I hope that this year goes well, though! Good luck.
Cricket has a lot of good points. I would only add that it might be a good idea to contact someone at the district at this point, if the district is more in charge of the GT program at your kiddo's school than the principal. There's a better chance that they will understand what the test results mean.

It is great that your DD's current teacher is so helpful right now. Sometimes, "good enough for now" is what we can get.
Posted By: 1111 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/15/12 05:59 PM
This is why I am thinking the achievement scores might be able to help you more than the IQ scores. Not to say that they will "get" those either but it is laid out pretty clearly on the WJ achievement test report. Even I could understand it at first glance...:-)
Originally Posted by 1111
This is why I am thinking the achievement scores might be able to help you more than the IQ scores. Not to say that they will "get" those either but it is laid out pretty clearly on the WJ achievement test report. Even I could understand it at first glance...:-)

The grade equivalents on the WJ's are usually what teachers can relate to. Better yet is results on the school's own testing, because they are very familiar with that. If you can convince someone to give your kiddo an end-of-year test, that might be helpful.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/15/12 06:40 PM
Yes, on what StPauliGirl said: perhaps going directly to the district GT people might be worth a try. The only drawback I'd see with that would be the possibility of alienating the school if they feel like you're going over their heads. I might talk with the teacher you like first if you are going to speak to the district and tell her that you plan to do so just so you can get more info on what they have to offer as your dd as she progresses through school or something like that where it doesn't sound like you are heading to the district to complain.

Secondly, re 1111's post, I have two thoughts. I do think that achievement scores are more familiar to schools, but they are also more subject to inflation in kids who've done outside tutoring or things of the sort and there is the possibility that the school may again interpret high numbers as a result of your working with her, even if that isn't the case, and it doesn't sound like it is wink.

My other thought in regard to achievement tests is to consider which one you want to do if you go that route. They are generally significantly less expensive than IQ testing, which is good, and tests like the WJ, like 1111 mentions, will get her those DYS numbers if they come out high, which sounds like a good possibility given her IQ #s. OTOH, the WJ isn't a test used by schools usually and it might mean more to them to see apples compared to apples. I'd consider looking @ what tests they use: MAPS, DRA, ITBS, etc. and see if there is a way to get her tested on one of those or even an above level one if you are considering something like the ITBS.

The other thing with short tests like the WJ, and I know that I've said this before on this board, is that they don't always give the best estimation of the child's level in regard to where s/he needs to be placed. I've seen some wildly high numbers on them, even in my own kids, that really didn't reflect the placement needs. One of my girls was ready for PhD level work (grade equivalent 18+) as a very young 7 y/o 2nd grader if I took the reading/writing parts of her WJ-III at face value. Honestly, she's a fantastic reader and writer and would have done well with a couple grades of acceleration at that point (probably could have held her own in a 5th grade language arts class), but there was absolutely no way she needed post-graduate level work in that area despite those scores. My take away is to take scores on WJ and WIAT type of tests with a bit of a grain of salt: really high #s mean that the child is quite advanced in that area, but they may come out higher than would reflect true educational placement needs.
Posted By: 1111 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/15/12 07:23 PM
I agree with Cricket2. The scores you will get show that your kid is ready for more work than the grade they are in. That is about it. And that is good enough for me. But it seems to me the scores are not necessarily reflecting the whole truth but rather a glimpse of your child's HIGH points. Usually subjects are way broader than what they get to do on the test and acceleration to the grade level WJ reveal would not work. I am not putting my kid in 4th grade for sure...:-)
Posted By: Grinity Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/15/12 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
When a principal starts out with "it's not that we don't believe you" it can never be good.
((facepalm))
I have to agree with you. But the teacher sounds wonderful, and a wonderful teacher can mean a wonderful year.
Keep an eye on things and get that DYS application in.
Love and More Love,
Grinity
Posted By: 1111 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/15/12 09:12 PM
I do still think that even if you work with a kid there is no way that would automatically yield exceptionally high achievement scores. A child that is of average intelligence simply would not be able to advance that dramatically (say 5 years above their age) academically even with tutoring.

Agree or not?

I wonder if there is anything written about that. So you could print it and have it ready to show in case that argument comes up from the school.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/16/12 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by 1111
I do still think that even if you work with a kid there is no way that would automatically yield exceptionally high achievement scores. A child that is of average intelligence simply would not be able to advance that dramatically (say 5 years above their age) academically even with tutoring.

Agree or not?
I don't know if there are any studies out there regarding how far one can "hothouse" a child, so to speak, but I suspect that the further one gets out of grade level, the more likely the child is gifted and not just hothoused.

The closest to anything along those lines that I could find was on Kumon's website (I checked both them and Sylvan, assuming that they are two major tutoring centers nationwide) that noted that,

Quote
In the United States, more than half of Kumon math students study material that is above their grade level, and 24 percent of those students are learning materials two to three years above their grade in school.
(http://www.kumon.com/AboutKumon.aspx)

What I know of Kumon is that it is pretty drill intensive, so I am having a hard time imagining that more than half of their students, or even 12% of their students (24% of 50%), are gifted-highly gifted. That, to me, would lend toward indicating that it may be possible to get a ND child to perform up to 2-3 grade levels up. (I'm sure that there are some gifted kids going to tutoring programs like Sylvan and Kumon, I'm just not sure that it is that many of their clients.)

Posted By: 1111 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/16/12 02:29 AM
I am wondering if Kumon is pulling a sales trick there...;-)


So I'm contemplating getting the WJ achievement testing done. I just have some questions about it versus IQ scores.

As I have mentioned before, I have done very little with dd in terms of teaching. She has decided here and there to do a workbook page but never more than 1-2 times a month. If she chooses to do something it is usually writing stories/making books (she just made a nature book), arts and crafts, science experiments she comes up on her own, word searches, coloring, or mazes.

I have had a few talks with her and asked her what she thinks of her class/classmates, and she says she feels uncomfortable b/c the instruction is too slow (and the classmates don't want to play what she wants to play). I think she would benefit from a much faster pace of learning and could probably hold her own if she were to go to 2nd grade for math.

She seems to get math though with little to no instruction. Since school has restarted I have been helping older dd (in 3rd grade) with her math, which she is struggling with, and younger dd is piping up with the answers.

This all said, I don't know how she would score on the WJ-III. It is based on things that are learned academically and if she isn't being/hasn't been instructed at an advanced level I doubt her results would be in the same percentiles as her WISC. And I know in the past comparing ability (IQ) to achievement has been a basis for determining if a learning disability is present. I seriously doubt she has a learning disability so would she be inaccurately diagnosed to have one b/c of a discrepancy?

Do highly gifted kids still score high on the WJ despite no acceleration unless there is a learning disability?

(Sorry for the scattered and jumbled post... can't seem to organize my thoughts today... need more coffee. I hope my question makes sense.)
Oh, and wanted to add that I think this principal thinks that I'm just destined to be an unsatisfied parent. Between one dd needing more help which I can't get her... and the other dd who needs more advancement; which sounds like they either a.) don't believe me or b.) are unwilling to provide, I'm believing more and more each day that our school (a magnet) doesn't have their students' best interests at heart and teaches to the middle.
Originally Posted by Cricket2
OTOH, the WJ isn't a test used by schools usually and it might mean more to them to see apples compared to apples. I'd consider looking @ what tests they use: MAPS, DRA, ITBS, etc.

The only one I've heard of them using is DRA and once she reaches 1 year above grade level they stop testing. And they do Everyday Math assessments at various times throughout the year. My older dd has had those but younger dd hasn't had any yet.
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
Oh, and wanted to add that I think this principal thinks that I'm just destined to be an unsatisfied parent. Between one dd needing more help which I can't get her... and the other dd who needs more advancement; which sounds like they either a.) don't believe me or b.) are unwilling to provide, I'm believing more and more each day that our school (a magnet) doesn't have their students' best interests at heart and teaches to the middle.

I think the reality is - you aren't satisfied, right? It's ok to let the school know it smile I think to put it in perspective re administrators sometimes it helps to realize you're not the only unsatisfied customer they have. It's not terribly unusual to find that schools tend to teach "to the middle" simply because that's where the great majority of their customers are, so that's where they keep the highest percentage of people possible satisfied - it doesn't necessarily mean they don't care, but it probably means they don't have the energy or staff or resources to do everything for everyone. (And it could mean they don't care too - but I think most of the time most teachers/principals/etc really do care... just with a different perspective than we have because they are overseeing a large number of kids and we're trying to optimize school for only our kids.

I think the key thing you need to do is to decide what you want for your dd this year, advocate for it if you need to, then get through to the other side (i.e., find out once and for all - for this year - will you get what she needs from this school?). We had our kids in a magnet school and ultimately switched schools because we were very caught up in a teach-to-the-middle situation even though in theory the school was supposed to be supportive of kids working ahead as well as students who were struggling (which my ds fit into both categories!)... anyway, jmo but I think the culture of a school depends a lot on the leadership, and if you've got a principal who doesn't support working outside of the box and isn't gung-ho about either gifted or special needs kids, you may find the school is never going to be a very good fit.

What to do now? Personally I wouldn't seek out a WJ-III achievement test simply because it is a series of very short tests that test a wide variety of very specific skills. It doesn't show whether or not a child will really be successful at a higher grade level or whether or not they would benefit from going deeper in any area. OTOH, I wouldn't *worry* about having your dd take the WJ-III - it is not going to find a disability where one doesn't exist, and the scoring is normed against age/grade level peers, so she's not going to be disadvantaged or not "look" gifted simply because she hasn't taken above-grade-level math etc. If she's a high achiever in math in first grade, she'll look like a high achiever on the WJ-III in math (unless of course Everday Math has totally warped her brain... sorry... I just had to say that lol!)....

If you decide you want to continue to advocate for a grade skip or subject acceleration, you need to gather samples of work and tests that the teachers are familiar with and *trust* - something they know.

I also wouldn't panic if you can't get her accelerated right now. There are things you *can* do - for instance, you can let her teacher know there are specific times that she finds class slow or boring, and you can either ask the teacher to give her more challenging worksheets or problems or whatever during that time. If the teacher doesn't know what to give her or balks at the idea of having to take time to think something up, you can make suggestions or provide the work. If the teacher says she has x number of students just like dd who could benefit from learning math faster but no time to work with them, if you have time you could offer to volunteer to come in and lead a small group ahead in math once a week during math time. You can also look at it as, this is school - let school be what it is for now, and continue to encourage and support her eager mind outside of school. When/if she has work or a project sent home, have her dig deeper or give a little extra in terms of work so the teacher can see where she's really at.

Hang in there!

polarbear
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/18/12 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
This all said, I don't know how she would score on the WJ-III. It is based on things that are learned academically and if she isn't being/hasn't been instructed at an advanced level I doubt her results would be in the same percentiles as her WISC. And I know in the past comparing ability (IQ) to achievement has been a basis for determining if a learning disability is present. I seriously doubt she has a learning disability so would she be inaccurately diagnosed to have one b/c of a discrepancy?

Do highly gifted kids still score high on the WJ despite no acceleration unless there is a learning disability?
No guarantees, of course, but FWIW, my dd13 scored very highly on the WJ-III at age 7 despite no advanced instruction. The writing portion was at grade 18+ and the reading part a bit lower, but pretty close to that. She had had virtually no instruction at all in reading or writing up to that point b/c all they'd taught in school was phonics, reading early reader books as a group, and maybe some very minimal writing instruction, but nothing beyond basic punctuation and spelling.
Originally Posted by Cricket2
No guarantees, of course, but FWIW, my dd13 scored very highly on the WJ-III at age 7 despite no advanced instruction. The writing portion was at grade 18+ and the reading part a bit lower, but pretty close to that. She had had virtually no instruction at all in reading or writing up to that point b/c all they'd taught in school was phonics, reading early reader books as a group, and maybe some very minimal writing instruction, but nothing beyond basic punctuation and spelling.

I've seen the WJ-III achievement tests that my ds took at age 8, and they really didn't include much more than very basic concepts such as putting together very short sentences or linking a picture to a concept, things like that, things that you would expect a child in the grade level he/she is in to have been exposed to. You could probably find good descriptions of them online if you search for it.

Another thought - I'd consider talking to someone in the district gifted program to see what's offered outside of your magnet school - you can ask if there are services or acceleration offered in first grade at other schools. It's not an over-the-prinicipals' head type of talk, it's just looking for information so you can make choices for your dd (whether or not you'd ever consider any of the other programs as choices). As part of that conversation, you can ask what testing the district uses to screen for the gifted program.

polarbear

ps - I think once you mention your dd's FSIQ to a district gifted services representative you'll find they are very happy to talk to you! I've always found it's much easier to talk to the gifted program staff than to the regular ed teachers and administrators at our kids' schools about gifted issues - they tend to discount what a high IQ is or how infrequently it occurs, whereas the gifted staff is very familiar with seeing all the borderline kids who's parents try to advocate their way into the program. (Oh gosh, I apologize for sounding a bit snarky there - I really don't mean to!)... Anyway, the gifted services folks will know your dd is really bright and understand that she's bored. It doesn't guarantee they'll do anything about any of it or be able to help, but it's at least always nice to talk to someone who understands smile Plus you might also get some info that will help you advocate in future years.
Originally Posted by polarbear
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
Oh, and wanted to add that I think this principal thinks that I'm just destined to be an unsatisfied parent. Between one dd needing more help which I can't get her... and the other dd who needs more advancement; which sounds like they either a.) don't believe me or b.) are unwilling to provide, I'm believing more and more each day that our school (a magnet) doesn't have their students' best interests at heart and teaches to the middle.

I think the reality is - you aren't satisfied, right? It's ok to let the school know it smile I think to put it in perspective re administrators sometimes it helps to realize you're not the only unsatisfied customer they have. It's not terribly unusual to find that schools tend to teach "to the middle" simply because that's where the great majority of their customers are, so that's where they keep the highest percentage of people possible satisfied - it doesn't necessarily mean they don't care, but it probably means they don't have the energy or staff or resources to do everything for everyone. (And it could mean they don't care too - but I think most of the time most teachers/principals/etc really do care... just with a different perspective than we have because they are overseeing a large number of kids and we're trying to optimize school for only our kids.

I think the key thing you need to do is to decide what you want for your dd this year, advocate for it if you need to, then get through to the other side (i.e., find out once and for all - for this year - will you get what she needs from this school?). We had our kids in a magnet school and ultimately switched schools because we were very caught up in a teach-to-the-middle situation even though in theory the school was supposed to be supportive of kids working ahead as well as students who were struggling (which my ds fit into both categories!)... anyway, jmo but I think the culture of a school depends a lot on the leadership, and if you've got a principal who doesn't support working outside of the box and isn't gung-ho about either gifted or special needs kids, you may find the school is never going to be a very good fit.

You're right. Maybe next year things will improve in the G&T class and it won't matter. I have heard some good things about it from parents who have kids in it. But I have also heard it is no different than the regular classes. Only time will tell...

Originally Posted by polarbear
If she's a high achiever in math in first grade, she'll look like a high achiever on the WJ-III in math (unless of course Everday Math has totally warped her brain... sorry... I just had to say that lol!)....

Oh great, I already hate Everyday Math with a passion, it is only making things worse for older dd and I fear it's going to cause major problems for her as she gets further along in school. It's no surprise that nearly all the other schools in the district use a different program or are in the process of dropping EM. Our principal seems to think it's great and that their state test scores improved on it. DD#2 is just now starting EM in 1st grade this year so she has yet to be exposed to it and I was hoping it wouldn't cause issues with her as it does for dd (due to her dyslexia). Please tell me it hasn't been too bad for you with your gifted children ***fingers crossed***. Although, in the G&T class they use EM and Sunshine Math.


Originally Posted by polarbear
I also wouldn't panic if you can't get her accelerated right now. There are things you *can* do - for instance, you can let her teacher know there are specific times that she finds class slow or boring, and you can either ask the teacher to give her more challenging worksheets or problems or whatever during that time. If the teacher doesn't know what to give her or balks at the idea of having to take time to think something up, you can make suggestions or provide the work. If the teacher says she has x number of students just like dd who could benefit from learning math faster but no time to work with them, if you have time you could offer to volunteer to come in and lead a small group ahead in math once a week during math time. You can also look at it as, this is school - let school be what it is for now, and continue to encourage and support her eager mind outside of school. When/if she has work or a project sent home, have her dig deeper or give a little extra in terms of work so the teacher can see where she's really at.

Lots of good advice, thank you! I am signed up for volunteering and went in for the first time this past Wednesday to help with math. I'll be coming in every Wednesday. It was painful though to see dd spacing out at circle time while the teacher taught them how to use a number line. At the conference we had with the teacher she did mention how last year she had a parent take the advanced students to the hall to work with them (in addition to using Sunshine Math). So I'm guessing/hoping it will get better and that the beginning of the year is just super slow. I really do like her teacher, she is very extroverted, unlike dd and myself, so I think she will be good for both of us.

I think I will hold off a bit before contacting the district gifted coordinator. Maybe things will move along in a month or so, and if not I guess I will continue working with the teacher and see where that gets me. Regardless, we will stick around for at least next year to try out the G&T program and see if that works for us. I do know that in other schools they do accelerate students into higher grades for things like math (I substitute) so I know it is possible outside of our magnet school. There are some positives to our school that I find important, it's an expeditionary outbound school and older dd actually likes school since switching to it.
If you are committed to staying at the school, there's probably not a big reason to get the WJ testing done, unless it's a test the school staff is familiar with. In my son's case the school wanted to do achievement testing after seeing his SB results, and it turned out the WJ was one the school used. I would double-check with the GT program about what achievement tests they use. If you really want this info, then you may as well use a test that will mean something to the school.

Re: your question about how well your DD might do on the WJ, I agree that it shouldn't matter if she hasn't had any prep. If she's doing well in her grade, that will be reflected. It's not the most comprehensive test, as others have mentioned, asking a few questions per grade level, IIRC.

I also do think there's value in finding out more about the GT program if you've heard it's no different from the regular classroom. Not every GT program works for every kid. If there are options nearby, or in nearby districts if open enrollment is an option, you will want to do your research before the open enrollment period ends (some districts around close their open enrollment in February). I know this isn't an ideal situation, but I know several parents who send their kids to different schools in different districts to get a better fit for each. Not always a choice, but I'm just throwing that out there.

ETA: please note I'm just stating the above based on personal experience, and I know that everyone makes decisions based on what works for your family. I throw my experiences out there mostly because when we went out of district to an accelerated program, we found a much better fit and I havent had school stress since then, beyond wondering what we'll do in 2 years when this program ends. I spent soooo much time working to get a better fit in our local school, and it just never worked out for us.

You also said that you thought your DD would do better with 2nd grade math because she'd do better at a faster pace. Hate to be such a pessimist, but going up a grade in a nonaccelerated program, you may find that things are better at first, but really the pace issue will remain. But sometimes it works out, especially I'd you can get your kiddo grouped with other accelerated learners in the next grade up.
@Pauli

The info I'm hearing about the GT program is mixed. It was only 1 parent (who has a kid in a traditional classroom) that said the GT class was no different. So I take it with a grain of salt. Other parents who have kids in it have had nice things to say about it. I do have a friend whose dd is starting it this year and the mom is very vocal about her opinions. So if there is something she doesn't like about it I'll be sure to hear it. So far she has positive feedback.

The other bit of info I keep hearing from teachers and the principal is that the class is an 'intervention' of sorts. When I asked dd's kindergarten teacher last spring if we should apply for dd and she said that the GT class is for students who need a lot of emotional support. She made it sound as if it's a class for kids who have emotional and social problems....?!?!? The district website says nothing of the sort. But then the principal also called it an intervention. And then I heard from a friend (who doesn't know that I had dd tested and will be applying) who tried to get her dd in but she didn't qualify, who tells me that unless your child is a freak they don't get in. *sigh*. I truly think that none of them are right if I go by the description on the districts website. Not to mention I subbed for a G&T class (at a different school) last year and the kids were delightful... granted some of them were a bit more emotional when they got frustrated but heck, I can relate with dd being like that.

"You also said that you thought your DD would do better with 2nd grade math because she'd do better at a faster pace. Hate to be such a pessimist, but going up a grade in a nonaccelerated program, you may find that things are better at first, but really the pace issue will remain. But sometimes it works out, especially I'd you can get your kiddo grouped with other accelerated learners in the next grade up."

- You're right. I hadn't even considered this and perhaps this is why the G&T class is really the only option b/c she will be with kids that learn at the same pace as her.

Posted By: knute974 Re: Have test results - not what I expected - 08/24/12 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
The other bit of info I keep hearing from teachers and the principal is that the class is an 'intervention' of sorts.


This is "eduspeak." Gifted and talented education is addressed in the Colorado's Response to Intervention Document under Special considerations

Response to Intervention provides support systems for students with exceptional
ability or potential. Students who are gifted require special provisions because of their strengths and abovegrade instructional level or potential. In gifted education, strength-based interventions or strength-based programming, are used to describe tiered instruction.
RTI guide p. 35

http://www.cde.state.co.us/RtI/downloads/PDF/RtIGuide.pdf

Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
When I asked dd's kindergarten teacher last spring if we should apply for dd and she said that the GT class is for students who need a lot of emotional support. She made it sound as if it's a class for kids who have emotional and social problems....?!?!? The district website says nothing of the sort. But then the principal also called it an intervention. And then I heard from a friend (who doesn't know that I had dd tested and will be applying) who tried to get her dd in but she didn't qualify, who tells me that unless your child is a freak they don't get in. *sigh*. I truly think that none of them are right if I go by the description on the districts website. Not to mention I subbed for a G&T class (at a different school) last year and the kids were delightful... granted some of them were a bit more emotional when they got frustrated but heck, I can relate with dd being like that.


This tends to be a perception of traditional teachers/families who don't have a lot of exposure to gt classrooms. Yes, our kids do have different social/emotional needs than typical kids. Yes, there are some more intense kids in there. Yes, there are sometimes some kids with other exceptionalities, i.e. one ASD kid with behavioral issues can color people's perception of a whole class. These types of comments really reflects a lack of understanding of gt kids.

I've got to get the kids to school. Will elaborate later.
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