Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional DD5 possible writing issues

Hi
I'm looking for any input about possible writing issue with my DD5. I don't have a ND kid in the house and have no clue what it looks like. Here is a little background about her. 
I had chance to talk more with her teacher yesterday and kind of confirmed what I am seeing at home. For starters, she is hiding most of her abilities at home, but does better at school with showing her abilities. She will tell me she can't read, but then comes down from her room talking about what Pluto Being a dwarf planet or some other space stuff. I'll ask her how she knows that and she responds, I was "looking" at a book. If I push and ask if she read it, than the answer is I can't read. She does the same thing with math. If you put a work sheet in front of her, the answer is this is to hard or I need a number line to do this. If you ask her how many 2s are in 14 she answers immediately 7. She can do a lot of math and reading but doesn't acknowledge her ability to do so. She is better at school. I think she is more concern at school about how she looks to her teacher and peers. She does some hiding at school but when they do reading and math assessments she is in the 90s for percentile. I think she really likes pleasing her teacher.
Social skills are over the top. She is a peer mentor to the most disabled kids in the school. She can socially deal with anything with compassion and patiences.

The writing goes like this. She uses grotto pencil grips because she can't hold the pencil correctly to save her life. She still arches her wrist even with the grips. She can't seem to get her hand down. The letters are inconsistent in size and go back and forth between upper and lower case within words. She knows the difference between upper and lower but mixes them anyway. She reverses her p,q,b,d,g with a random occurrence. Her coloring and drawing is fairly bad. She complains to hurt to do it. She has a vision of what her stuff will look like but can't put it on paper. At home, she doesn't write one line before she complains of pain in her hand. On the other hand, She has written 1 page to 2 page long journey entries that have all the structure of sentences, paragraphs, correct usage of words. They will be well written and descriptive and the spelling is phonetically correct, eg skool for school.  She will occasionally write the well developed entries but most of the time she complains her hand hurts. The teacher thought earlier in the year it maybe fine motor skills. She doesn't feel that way anymore and I don't either. She doesn't really display other weakness with fine motor. She plays with Legos and builds a lot. She can zip her own coat. She can't tied her shoes but I can't say we've really tried yet. She rides her bike with training wheels but she just got it late fall and hasn't gotten enough time on it to pull the wheels yet. She plays soccer and seems to be able to run and follow the ball easily yet gets tired very fast. She plays baseball and can catch the ball fairly well. She does seem to tire out quickly in all sports activities but seems to have good motor skills when she can keep up. The teacher said she believes possibly visual or processing issues. She is going to have the OT look ( off the record) in class. We will consider having the school evaluation in the fall but with school wrapping up soon it's unlikely to get done before it ends. The teacher wants her placement next year to be based on her academic abilities. The principal at this school tends to place the IEP kids out of the advance classes because of the IEP. Thankfully, she is only there until 2nd grade. We don't want to have her placement lower for next year. My older son was place with the more advanced teacher for 1st grade and she was a saint with his difficulties. I'm confident she would be with DD as well. I do want to start outside evaluations and possible OT if she needs it. Any suggestions on where to start? I have no experience with this. I have a dyslexic DS but this looks different. She has the structure in her writing that seems very advanced for her age.  For vision evaluations, what kind of ophthalmologist would I look for? Do I start there or do I do a neuro evaluation first? I don't have cognitive test yet. I was going to wait until she was 6 and change but now I'm think of slipping a WPPSI in there sooner rather than later.

Thanks in advance for any input. 

Jtooit

I can't help with advice on the evaluation, but both the handwriting and the tiring at sports sound as though she may simply not have the muscle strength she needs. My totally amateur theory is that some people just take more practice than other people do to build up the same amount of muscle strength, and that this can particularly matter for children. If this is part of the issue with her writing, the OT ought to be able to recognise it easily and recommend things to do about it; in the meantime, there wouldn't be any harm in encouraging her to spend time playing with clay/playdough if she likes it, as this is apparently often recommended for building up hand strength. Or make bread together? It might also be that there are better pencil grips for her to use, but I think it would be better to have expert advice on that.

The letter reversals and mixing upper and lower case are pretty common at 5 I think (especially the former) and the amount she can write sounds great. My 8yo still wouldn't write that amount voluntarily.

My experience meshes with Colin'sMum's theory, in that it just took my DS8 longer to get the writing piece closer to what's in his head. Writing is still a pain point for him, but he is within the developmental range. My DS refused to learn to write until he was 5 and in kindergarten, and then he skipped 1st brade, a big writing year, so a lot of it is just that he hasn't had a whole lot of practice. A lot of people here have had success with Handwriting Without Tears.

I can't speak to whether there are Issues an OT can help with, but an evaluation can't hurt, and even if there's no diagnosis, an OT may have useful exercises. Luckily, when our DS entered 2nd grade, his teachers didn't make a big deal about the writing, letting him give answers orally sometimes. He seems to be doing OK now in third. Also they've been learning cursive, which he seems to have fewer issues with (I suspect because there is less lifting the pencil off the page).

I would advocate hard at the school to keep your kiddo in the advanced section, with or without an IEP. You could offer to work on writing over the summer, if you think that will help.

ETA: my kiddo did the upper lower case thing too, and the reversal's. Seems ti have gotten better this year (age 8).

I observed in my son's class that a fair number of kids reversed letters up until second grade. A certain amount of that can be normal.
Practice, practice, practice! We bought Handwriting Without Tears and did a page a day for 6 months, both volumes. My son never had any issues with reversing letters or holding the pencil, but his penmanship got better with practice.
Have you thought of trying piano lessons? Again, practicing fine motor skills can be helpful.

All of this sounds (with the exception of the drawing) sounds exactly like my ds with dysgraphia at the same age. *HOWEVER* he didn't have alternating moments where he was able to write a lot without complaining. In my ds' case, the dysgraphia is fine-motor related (and his spelling is also impaired). In your dd's case, it sounds like spelling isn't impacted (she's sound-spelling which is typical for her age) - so I also wonder if maybe there isn't something visual going on. My dd who had vision issues had inconsistent writing when she was in K/1 - sometimes it would be a total mess and she wouldn't give much effort without quitting, other times she wrote a lot and it looked much neater than usual (in her case, this happened with creative writing - stories etc - but that is what she really loves to do). Does your dd hold her head at an angle or close to the paper when she writes? Has she said anything about words moving around when she reads? Is she on track with reading? Those are just a few things that you might notice if she has something going on with her vision.

I suspect her hand hurts due to her pencil grip - so one thing you might want to try to do is to consult with an OT or a teacher for just one session who could show her the correct way to hold her pencil. OTOH - I'm guessing from what you've said that you've already tried that and she hasn't for whatever reason been able to continue with the grip? My ds with dysgraphia had a very odd grip (this is typical for dysgraphic kids) *but* he was able to learn a more-typical grip through working with an OT.... so I kinda wonder if perhaps there's something related to your dd's actual finger muscles or whatever (that's not dysgraphia) that causes her to have a tough time with her grip *if* she's already had teachers/etc try to work with her on her grip and it hasn't worked so far.

FWIW, when my ds did handwriting OT the types of things that he did to work on finger strength for improved grip were manipulating *hard* putty (not the typical model magic), putting tacs and toothpicks in and out of clay, putting pegs in and out of lightboards etc. Before he went through OT he had a lot of wrist pain and wouldn't write for more than a few minutes before giving up, but OT eliminated the odd grip and the wrist pain.

The thing about OT (where we live) is that you have to have a referral to get an appointment to begin with, and the wait list is really long - it took us almost 6 months to get our initial appointment. It's great that you'll be able to have the school OT take a look!



FWIW, my dysgraphic ds also played with Legos (still does!) and loved to build things. He could also make incredibly detailed TINY models out of model magic. Yet he definitely had fine-motor related dysgraphia. It can be a real puzzle figuring out what's up with young children!

The same goes for the other motor skills you listed. DS could zip his coat, but he couldn't tie his shoes - he didn't learn how to do that well until he was 9 years old, and he still forgets how (at 12) if he goes on vacation and only wears flip-flops for a week. However, so many kids have velcro shoes now and at the age your dd is, I wouldn't necessarily think not being able to tie a shoelace means much of anything. Since you have other things you're wondering about, I think what I'd do is to try to teach her to tie her shoes this summer and see if it's something she learns without a lot of trouble and if she remembers how to do it.



If she is referred for an IEP eligibility evaluation, most evaluations include ability/acheivement testing as part of the process - so you'll have have evidence of her strengths as well as evidence of her challenges. Don't for one minute step back and let the school argue that she should be placed in a lower level classroom simply because she's on an IEP!!!

I have no experience with this. I have a dyslexic DS but this looks different. [/quote]

In my dh's family, my ds has cousins with dyslexia. I suspect that even though it looks different, dysgraphia and dyslexia are related "enough" that you might see them both occur in the same family due to genetics.

Re what to do, who to see first. I wouldn't necessarily rush into an evaluation. If you have enough of the school year left that the OT at school can take a look, give you some advice, try a few things - go that route first. You can ask the school OT if he/she knows if there is a behavioral/developmental optometrist in your area that is recommended; if you can find a dr for a vision assessment that you feel you can trust (get recommendations from someone you can trust first!), and if you can afford the evaluation of if your insurance will cover it, I'd go ahead and get that eval. over the summer.

I am not sure I'd get the WPPSI just for the heck of seeing if anything shows up there at this point in time - I think I'd wait until next year for a full neuropsych for two reasons - first, you're not sure you really need one and second, if you wait until your dd is at least 6, you eliminate the possibility of anyone questioning whether or not they can believe the WPPSI results since your dd was young when she took the test (for instance, my ds took the WPSSI when he was 5 for a gifted program entry, and he had the classic large dip in processing subtest scores, but the tester put it aside as him being a perfectionist, him being slow because he was a boy, him being slow because he was 5, him not understanding he was timed, things like that. When he was evaluated again at 7 the tester wasn't as quick to discount the slow processing speed. IF otoh, your dd was obviously struggling, frustrated, anxious etc over school then yes, I'd consider a private neuropsych eval now rather than holding off until she's older.

polarbear

Well, imo it could be a problem or it could be that her hands and eyes are 5 and her thoughts are much more advanced. I think it is hard to say at this age, but in my experience, a 1-2 page journal entry would be very unusual for any 5 year old. I had my 5 year old screened by an OT because I was worried about his refusal to write lower case letters and she told me that he was developmentally on track AND that most 5 year olds are not developmentally ready to write lower case letters anyways so not to worry about it at this point. She said that we really shouldn't be pushing lower case until at least age 6 but schools are pushing it earlier as kinder becomes more academic focused. ALso, I think that the flipping back and forth between between upper and lower and the letter reversals are also common for that age.

My suggestion, if you are worried about the school response, would be to have her screened or evaluated privately. Most insurances will cover the evaluation if your pediatrician refers you and many therapy places will offer free screenings to let you know if you need to go ahead with the full evaluation. For my DS8, insurance covered his eval and OT 100%. I suggest this because then YOU control the report and can decide whether to give it to the school if you worried that they might use it to keep her out of advanced curriculum.

However, I also think that the real issue may be whether or not her writing skills (even if they are normal for a 5 year old) would be sufficient for the advanced curriculum. If she is asked to write at length, then it might be a problem. But if you are talking about 1st grade with an advanced curriculum within then I would think she would be ok. DS was not required to write at length really until 2nd and it is amazing how much they develop in that time.

If it were me and I were worried about how the school would react to the results, I would probably get an outside OT eval and share the findings with the teacher. If she has the same teacher as your DS it sounds like she will be able to accommodate your dd's needs. Also, this may vary between states/school districts but in our area you can't get in-school support unless you are performing below grade level (which means many 2Es are out of luck). This is the reason I sought outside evals.

Thanks for all of your great replies. It gives me a lot to think about. I really don't have a "normal" to compare her development too. One brother was writing with perfect spelling and punctuation at 5 and the other could not write anything at 5.

She had been doing Handwriting Without Tears at school and will continue to do it over the summer. She has been doing play doh and dough kneading as well. The teacher saw earlier in the year some issues. She has not really improved with as the year has gone on. She began using the grotto grip I believe in the late fall at the suggestion of the teacher. It keeps her fingers exactly where they need to be. She does not hold the pencil correctly without it. It has help her position with her fingers, but the wrist arching is still present. She complains of pain when writing regardless of the length of writing. I get the feeling somedays she just wants so badly to get something out on paper that she pushing's through the discomfort. She also seems to have a similar sensory thing like her brother. They don't feel pain they way the rest of us do. She gets shots and blood draws without a flinch. Her brother had femur surgery with both legs broken and screwed back in place. He needed no pain meds. It was crazy to watch. I do gather when it's bothering her, its probably really bothering her. She wears the bruised up, banged up knees and shins like a badge of honor. She is of the opinion her bruised legs are a display of how hard she plays.

I called her Pediatrician this morning and got the name of a developmental ophthalmologist to have her evaluated. Her teacher did say she would start with the vision first and then look into processing issues. I do wonder with her ability to occasionally write long passages if processing could really be an issue. I can get her an appointment with the Ophthalmologist in May. I think we will start with that from a medical stand point.

My inclination is to keep the school administration out of it at this point. She probably does not qualify for an IEP. At best with a diagnosis maybe a 504, but I would like to gather the information first. The current teacher will have her OT take a peek at her this week. It can stay informal and off the record. She will send home any suggestions for her. She did look at her informally last fall and said start with fine motor and see if you have any improvement. I have close friend that is also a Special Education teacher. She is willing to spend some time with her this summer working on any motor skills issues.

Overall, I love our school district. We have many wonderful teachers. The administration in this one particular building has been a nightmare for us in the past. My DS that is EG/PG got no GT placement in this building. He has an IEP for hearing loss. The principal does seem to send the IEP kids to the slower moving class rooms and no pull out time. He only got the more advanced first grade teacher because at the time her was coming from another building. The principal wasn't aware of his IEP status only his achievement testing. The staff from the previous building wait until the last minute to send all of his information over to her. We had to fight her the entire time he was in the building. He had 2 years of no GT pull out despite the recommendations of his team. She placed him with a 2nd grade teacher(now retired) that would not allow him to bring books from home to read when he was finished with her classwork. She said,"it was too hurtful to the other children." The majority of the time, I am thrilled with our schools and the amazing teachers my kids have had. Just this one principal has been really difficult to handle. I think I have a better chance get outside evals and working with the advanced teacher next year over dealing with the "Wicked Witch" in the front office. DD has 2 more years in the building and I'd like to keep it peaceful. She is such a social little one and loves going to school. So far DD5's bubbly personality and demeanor has the principal really liking her. I am definitely don't want a war that leaves her unhappy at school.

Thanks again for you input. It so helpful to hear it