Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 591 guests, and 14 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    Joined: Jan 2013
    Posts: 121
    P
    phey Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Jan 2013
    Posts: 121
    I just finished reading my gifted education book round-up. I read 5 Levels of Gifted, Genius Denied, Hothouse Kids, and to round it off Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mother. My impression after the first two (besides a confirmation that my child is gifted) was, "okay, we need to challenge him, work him at whatever level he can go to, give him whatever educational resources we can." Then I read Hothouse Kids, and I felt that maybe a better approach was to back off. Expect little. I didn't want to be one of "those moms". And I don't want a miserable adult who laments his childhood. Then I read Tiger Mother, and all I could think of, is - that Lulu is like my stubborn kid...it can't turn out well to push like that. Besides the fact that I am totally laid back, and couldn't force myself to yell like that, I could never live in such an intense household. But the last two books did change my thinking; they made me think that intelligence is more nurture than nature. Otherwise the Chinese wouldn't have such a high success rate. Otherwise movies like Stand and Deliver wouldn't be so powerful.

    Overall I am left conflicted. Each individual child has his own tolerance for how much can be heaped upon him. So it is a very individual approach we need. Each child needs challenge proportionate to his abilities, but also in scale to his stamina.

    How to find that perfect balance that allows maximum achievement and lifelong content and happiness, is, I suppose, every parents' worry and wish, gifted or otherwise. Raising any child is overwhelming--a huge responsibility.

    How do YOU find this perfect balance?

    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,478
    Z
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Z
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,478
    First off, regarding nature vs. nurture: Achievement and intelligence are not the same thing; someone who is trained into a high degree of skill in an intellectual area has some distinct differences from someone who fits there by nature. Creative problem solving, multi-discipline knowledge base, wide vision, etc. are some characteristics that are going to be prevalent amongst the "natural" crowd.

    My recipe is:
    #1 Open and honest communication with my kid
    #2 Support his expressed needs
    #3 Encourage and feed his curiousity (heaping and feeding are not the same thing)
    #4 Anticipate some caveats I know of from my childhood and encourage him away from those paths or eliminate the barriers that lead there (e.g. unstimulating work in school)

    I figure if I get #1 right, everything else is a lot easier.

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    Quote
    But the last two books did change my thinking; they made me think that intelligence is more nurture than nature. Otherwise the Chinese wouldn't have such a high success rate. Otherwise movies like Stand and Deliver wouldn't be so powerful.

    I disagree re intelligence being more nurture than nature - I define intelligence as an innate quality, something that each of us is born with, our potential. Knowledge can come with nurture and achievement can come with nurture, and both are also helped along by circumstances - we are limited somewhat in our ability to acquire knowledge by the things, experiences, opportunities we are exposed to.

    I also think it's not as simple as stating "the Chinese have a high success rate" -a high success rate at what? How are you defining success? and on what terms are you willing to achieve that success? I've travelled to China and have quite a few Chinese friends, so mentioning China in particular peaks my interest simply because I have more knowledge of it than I do many other countries outside my home country. In my experience, it is very difficult to translate success from one country and one culture to another. I'm guessing here, since this is a discussion board addressing the needs of students with exceptional intelligence, you are drawing a conclusion that the students of high ability in China are better nurtured and educated? If that's your statement, I would disagree. From what I know of other people's experiences, students in the US and Australia, Great Britain, Canada also have a great deal more freedom in choosing their intellectual pursuits, including what they will study at the university level, which I believe is an important piece of nurturing high intellect. People in some parts of China have to pay to send their children to school, which means there are in some circumstances bright children who never go to school or don't get past an elementary education due to poverty. Take what I say with a grain of salt though, I am not an expert on any of this, just a person who tries not to draw broad conclusions about one country/culture vs another.

    With my children, I seek balance through following where my children are leading. Let them explore what is interesting to thein the moment, listen to them when they are frustrated and try to do what I can to ease the frustrations within reason, and expose them to learning that is also fun and interesting to them. I've never seen it as a race to feed more and mor eknowledge into them - from my experience children, gifted children in particular, absorb knowledge. In early elementary it's easy to get wrapped up in quantifying where a child is at based on easily measured academic skills. That's not what true genius is about and that's not what is going to leave a mark in the world. Growing happy kids who are self-confident and comfortable in their own skin is what is important to me in raising my kids, no matter what their level of intellectual giftedness. And I beleive if I focus on that, meeting me where they need to be, then that will also be how they will be in a place to learn optimally too (not sayin' that finding a good school fit is easy though!)

    polarbear

    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Until very recently, the Chinese operated for centuries in self-imposed isolation, leading to very little diversity in genetics or social practices compared to other major cultures. As a result, I don't think they can teach us anything about nature versus nurture.

    Personally, I've seen too many behaviors from my own DD to put too much stock in nurture over nature. She was literally born this way.

    I would say that if being a hothouse parent runs against your personality, then don't. Not only are you likely to burn yourself out as a parent by doing something against your nature, but it's also quite likely your DS is wired like you are, and you'll burn him out, too.

    Our approach is to mostly follow our DD8's lead, and provide opportunities for her to explore her interests. Where this can break down is where she first encounters challenge, feels outside her comfort zone, and wants to quit. That's where we step in, because for our part, this is the desired condition... we WANT her to be outside her comfort zone, challenge herself, and learn to overcome those challenges. The end goal here is building resiliency. A history of overcoming challenges fosters a belief in the ability to overcome the next one. The nature of the activity is irrelevant, as far as we're concerned.

    In situations where it was a paid activity, this was easy. We'd just tell her she asked to participate, and she's paid through a certain date, so she has to hold up her end of the bargain by staying with it at least through then. By the time that date comes up, she's overcome the initial challenge, and maybe a couple more along the way.

    It was a lot tougher when it involved something she was learning at home, like how to ride a bike or swim, but at least there was an intrinsic motivation to keep her coming back... eventually... after coaxing, and many tears...

    Along with that, we see our role as setting her up for success in whatever she's doing. Sometimes this means steering her towards activities that play to her strengths (ie: no to track, yes to baseball), and sometimes it means providing the right equipment (DD has the largest shin guards on her soccer team for a good reason), or extra coaching/encouragement, tales of our own failures and recoveries, reinforcing positive accomplishments, etc.

    As for perfect balance... what is that?

    Joined: Jan 2013
    Posts: 121
    P
    phey Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Jan 2013
    Posts: 121
    First, I don't mean to imply that it is all nurture. But after reading those books, I'd put more into nurture than I would have before. I know a lot of it is nature...my boy was alert at day one, and always just naturally keyed into things.

    My thoughts about the Chinese came solely from the Tiger Mother book. While she was a Chinese immigrant, her own statements about the Chinese way of raising children is the only place I took my thinking from. I don't know about the Chinese in general. I don't think of them as generally superior in creativity. But in America, the Chinese-Americans they do have a disproportionate representation in musical prodigies and math competitions...etc. So there is something to their method.

    I guess the question I'm trying to figure out right now is--Is it okay to teach my son (5 yrs-just started home school this January) three grades levels ahead...I feel a bit strange about it. I worry about the future... I know I shouldn't worry about what others think. I should just pace him where he is. But I am scared of the consequences.

    And perfect balance--well that is what I am so desperately trying to achieve, between not pushing too hard and challenging enough.

    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 40
    I
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    I
    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 40
    I actually tend to agree with phey. I like to think that intelligence is more nurture than nature. I like to believe that everyone has great potential. I encourage my DD5 to be curious, to try hard and to think hard. I tell her she becomes smarter this way.

    Phey, I think it's perfectly fine for your son to work at any level he's comfortable with. My DD5 also works far ahead. I actually don't teach her much, but let her discover and learn by herself as much as possible. But it can be tricky to provide the right environment and guidance that facilitate the learning and discovery.

    I'm also always puzzled about how much to push the child while keeping the child interested in the subject. When my DD gets stuck and frustrated at a difficult problem, I sometimes wonder whether it's better to give up for the day, or encourage her to try harder. If she tries harder and succeeds, then it becomes a great positive experience. But if she is just too tired to think, then trying harder won't help and it can become a negative experience.

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    We parent very much in the way that Dude's family does.

    Pragmatically, this may be because our DD's personality is similar to their kids' but I can't say for sure.

    We do some push-parenting. We do not do much in what would be considered true "hothousing" however. The only ways in which we hothouse are those related to safety and health needs which are also not age-appropriate or normative. I think that few parents would argue that a child with life-threatening food allergies needs to cultivate superb reading skills fairly young, and exert beyond-age-appropriate impulse control.

    On the other hand, we set boundary conditions and allow DD to do as much or as little as she pleases (and with whatever dedication she chooses) within that space.

    It's not manipulative, however. We don't use manipulative strategies with our DD because she is a master manipulator herself and needs no help getting better at it, or learning that this is a normal/healthy way to interact with others.

    DD seems to need a fairly large degree of push to get her out of her comfort zone-- and she isn't extrinsically motivated-- so we can LOOK like really hard-core push-parents. But the difference is that we're focused on participation, not performance.

    PS. I'm pretty sure that Tiger Mother's real message is far less about "Chinese" parenting (either PRC or American-immigrant) than it is about "first-generation-American-immigrant parenting" which is stereotypically characterized by high levels of parental sacrifice, pretty much superhuman work-ethic/drive on the part of parents (who are immigrants) and children who are both showered with opportunities, and pushed as hard as required to take FULL advantage of those opportunities. Naturally, this results in a disproportionate number of academic successes, as this group of children is prodded, guilted, and coerced into putting forth 110% as payment for their parents' sacrifices.

    It's not necessarily a story about push-parenting or nurturing, per se.

    I also don't tend to think that it's about nurture versus nature as much as it might at first appear, either. Because when you think about it, immigrants who manage to succeed enough to parent that way (against substantial odds) have to be pretty darned bright themselves, opportunity and development of academic skills aside. I'm thinking that most of the Chinese immigrants that I've known (and I've known quite a few, working in higher ed) have been among the top 3% among CHINESE families, in terms of ability and affluence.





    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 2,035
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 2,035
    I agree with the poster above. Immigrants (and political refugees) are the ones who wanted more and had the imagination to envision that more, and the strength to manage it. They are therefore a self-selected sample of people predisposed to high achievement.

    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 1,777
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 1,777
    I think my kids are normal kids, they're also very smart. Their balance, given their parenting, is between fun and normal and smart. What's that they say, he's a nerd but not a geek, or something. I only bother to worry about it if anyone acts like a jerk, then I say something.

    I do worry about getting my kids a good education, a solid foundation so I can respect their choices later. I want them to be able to make their own choices later. I think I fall into the category of hothouser, but barely. I think the real hothousers would laugh at my puny efforts. I do child-based teaching of lessons I think a child should learn and at the pace it looks to me like they should be working. I don't worry so much as other people seem to about "making it fun". A lot of it is fun, some of it is not.

    This has not led to a better academic fit at school. It has not put him at the head of the class. I've read that whoever's at the head of the class is in a zone called "optimally gifted". It's easy to go past that, to go "beyond optimally gifted". Then again, anyone who does probably would anyway.

    I will keep teaching my kids as long as they keep wanting to learn, and I don't mean "had a bad day" or hit a rough spot. But by saying that I believe the more you learn the more you want to learn, and that knowledge fans the flames building a thirst for more knowledge.


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 735
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 735
    My feeling on the nature vs nurture thing with DS 7 is that his need for information is something we must feed - rather like his need for food. Without input he gets cranky - he devours reading material and has these learning growth spikes and he has been this way since he was little - I diagnosed it at 3 but he was definitely like this from birth although we didn't know how different this behavior was because he is an only and it's not obvious at 6 months vs how obvious it is at 4.5 yrs when comparing to other kids.

    I was raised by tiger parents before it was newsworthy and always resented the pushing particularly when I recognized I had my own ambitions. I think if DS was another kid I might be worried about achievement but with him I am not. He is learning so much on his own achievement is not about learning for him, if you kwim. Instead, its about teaching DS work habits, perseverance and responsibility. DH is extremely bright but didn't learn that good work habits were key to achievement success when things got harder so we are both conscious that its important to learn executive function things so that DS can do what he wants to do, rather than achieving some score or something like that.

    DS is not really challenged currently by anything other than handwriting at school but he is mostly happy. By their standards he is really "achieving." He focuses on his interests outside of school at his own pace. I don't push him at all in the areas where he is learning ahead on his own although I will observe and then raise the level of what he is doing by bringing in a video or book at the next level, see how he reacts and proceed from there.

    DeHe

    Last edited by DeHe; 02/24/13 03:48 PM.
    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5