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    #119210 01/03/12 05:33 PM
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    katebee Offline OP
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    Hi there,

    I was wondering if anyone could help regarding the possibility of my son potentially being 2E. We never considered him to be gifted; his teacher also explicitly informed us that he was in no way gifted. I had concerns re dyslexia - he exhibits several symptoms (letter reversals and substitutions, misspells own surname, skips and substitutes words when reading and is continually rubbing his eyes), additionally dh is dyslexic - but the school inform me he is not behind enough for this to be the case. I've done quite a lot of reading re stealth dyslexia and think it is a possibility. We've seen a developmental optom and ds has specs for reading. I though he would have outgrown most of these literacy issues by now - he will be 8 in April. I was just after any insight on these scores - specifically any possible reasons for the discrepancy in subtest scores. He is pretty laid back really, very sensitive emotionally, but does not have issues with anxiety or perfectionism. He does, however, suffer from frustration and loves to read but gives up saying his eyes hurt and the print is too difficult after a few pages. I just want to help him and try and figure out how to best help him at school. He is above average in math and average in literature. His teacher just views him as mr average with occasional sparks of being 'bright', but extremely inconsistent in his writing and comprehension ability.

    Fluid Reasoning 147 99.9th
    Knowledge 143 99.8th
    Quantitative Reasoning 122 93rd
    Visual-Spatial Processing 117 87th
    Working Memory 123 94th

    Domains
    Nonverbal IQ 131 98th
    Verbal IQ 136 99th
    Full Scale IQ 135 99th
    Gifted Composite 140 99.6th

    Nonverbal:

    Fluid Reasoning � routing 17
    Knowledge 18
    Quantitative Reasoning 14
    Visual Spatial 12
    Working Memory 13

    Verbal:

    Fluid Reasoning 19
    Knowledge � routing 17
    Quantitative Reasoning 14
    Visual Spatial 14
    Working Memory 15

    I'd be so grateful for any input smile
    Many thanks and New Year's Blessings,
    Katebee


    'I want, by understanding myself, to understand others.'
    K Mansfield
    katebee #119215 01/03/12 07:10 PM
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    I think that, when you are dealing with HG-PG IQ scores and a child who performs in the avg-high avg range and who appears "in no way gifted" to teachers, 2e is a real possibility. My dd11 is similar. Her WISC-IV scores at around the same age had three subtest or composite HG+ scores (VCI @ 99.7, PRI @ 99, & GAI @ 99.9) and a teacher who said that she was "nothing special." She was sometimes above grade level, but nothing stunning.

    Her older sister whose IQ scores are somewhat lower, but still somewhat HG has always been so stunning above grade level in her performance that it is nearly impossible not to notice by teachers and others. 2e or major underperformance due to poor fit would be the two things that would fit in my mind in a sitution like your ds' and my dd's.

    For us the things that narrowed it down to 2e and not just checking out/lack of engagement were family history, wildly erratic performance, and never really performing on par with her ability even in areas of interest.

    Re him not being far enough behind to be dyslexic, I really don't think that is true with that kind of IQ. My dd, too, has never been below grade level. On a bad day, she's high avg for grade level. On a good day and an individual test like the WIAT or an above level test like the EXPLORE, she can occasionally pop scores that look HG+. Your ds isn't performing on par with his ability. If he wasn't so very able, he'd be way below grade level and the school would see a major problem.

    katebee #119325 01/04/12 05:17 PM
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    katebee Offline OP
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    Thanks Cricket2 smile

    I'm not really sure where to go from here. We had the assessment done about a month ago but haven't approached the school to arrange a meeting yet. It was hard enough getting accommodations for dd and she was pretty in your face gifted (but suffered from depression and anxiety due to such a bad fit for so long). After a grade skip they pretty much fudged her school report ( a 'C' in science for a kid who was looking at DNA, the difference between viral and bacterial infections, taught herself about prokaryotes and eukaryotes (sp?) from a medical book she found, and knows the different systems of the body inside out and more besides) - they figured if her report card didn't show straight As they didn't have to do anything, which they made very clear at a parent/teacher conference (they also refused to test her and we had to do it privately) - so we p/t home school now and have moved her. DS is still there, until funds permit a shift to Montessori where things are improved but not perfect. I requested a dyslexia assessment a year ago for ds, and on a few other occasions, but the school refused this also. I really don't know what to ask them to do, but need him to last the year out if possible. This year he'll be in the upper year of a dual split class (grade 2/3), so if it's due to bad fit I'm guessing it's only going to get worse. Where are you at with your dd now - what has worked and what hasn't - at school and at home? Any advice would be very welcome. I've just getting to grips with dd, and now need to sort ds frown.
    Thanks again for your post!
    K


    'I want, by understanding myself, to understand others.'
    K Mansfield
    katebee #119335 01/04/12 06:50 PM
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    Originally Posted by katebee
    his teacher also explicitly informed us that he was in no way gifted.

    Me thinks his teacher is WRONG!!

    As Cricket posted above, your DS sounds very similar to my DD9 (ADHD, stealth dyslexia and dysgraphia). We only pursued testing in grade 2 because the ADHD diagnosis did not explain her extreme resistance to school work. It is interesting the things that emerge as you begin to test... and boy do you have to continue to test!!! If we had stopped after DD's initial IQ and achievement testing, we would have left with confirmation of her ADHD and been sideswiped by the unknown HG+/PG identification. So we left that test thinking we just had an underachiever on our hands. Then, we spent 1.5 years pushing and pushing for her to show what she could do. How I wish, more than anything, that I had trusted my gut feeling and pushed for more testing straight away. I knew something was missing. It just didn't make sense. How could a child who was that 'smart' struggle so much with in an average classroom? She, too, was reading way above grade level. No one seemed to be as worried as we were and we allowed ourselves to be distracted by the GT label.

    My suggestion? PUSH for more testing. Pay for it yourself!! You are the only advocate your son has and he needs you to step up and help him. Don't wait any longer. I wish I could show physical proof of the damage my DD's self-esteem has suffered in the past two years. Her dyslexia diagnosis was an amazing relief. And that diagnosis would not have come without us finally stepping in and saying, "These labels don't fit!"

    FYI - we had separate writing and reading assessments to get the diagnosis we were seeking. I can dig out the specific tests, if you are interested.

    Trust your gut feeling, Mom. With a family history of dyslexia, you have good reasons to be suspect.


    Tomorrow is always fresh, with no mistakes in it. — L.M. Montgomery
    katebee #119363 01/05/12 02:44 AM
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    katebee Offline OP
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    hi kathleen'smum,

    Thank you so much! Yes, the tests your dd had would be great; I would be very grateful smile. We're in Western Oz and I'm unable to find anyone who is experienced at testing for LDs in conjunction with GT. I guess I'm concerned that things may be masked, but have to trust my gut and do something - that was what made me push for the IQ testing despite the school telling me I was crazy to think he was gifted in any way... Hopefully with a diagnosis I'll be able to get some accommodations put in place. I hate labels, but sometimes they're a necessity.

    Thank you so much again for sharing smile. It's good to know people are treading the same path!
    K


    'I want, by understanding myself, to understand others.'
    K Mansfield
    katebee #119365 01/05/12 04:39 AM
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    Katebee
    One good thing about LDs and Bottlenecks....sometimes they make school bearable. Is your son happy at school? Does he have friends?

    If he isn't miserable then one way to handle things is to leave him in school and spend private tuition money on outside helpers to adress the eye coordination issues and dyslexia.

    You son is certainly gifted...remember the bell curve. About 50% of gifted kids are bunched up right at the cut off line line with their test scores. Other places call that moderately Gifted but I call that Optimally Gifted because usually schools can provide a good education with some tweating and parents can do the rest on the weekends if they are willing to give up 'having a life'

    Your son s scores are beyond that clump. Hard to say without time and achievement score how far beyond but you may as well start saying that he is just like his sister only shows it different.

    I suspect that the LD are severe....if you and this teacher and the other teachers he has always had haven't seen the gifted part. There isn't even much scatter in those scores if you compare him to 2e pg kids. Obviously something is going on with the visual system. In the meantime Id work on developing the love of literature through audio books and discussion. Id also find his strenghts and hot house those someday they are going to carry him up and over those LDs.

    As a thought experiment journal your sons history as though he were very low vision...legally blind....but brillient at being undetected because he could use is intellegency to make the most of the little input his visual system provided and his great love od life to power him through.

    Love and more love
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    katebee #119371 01/05/12 08:05 AM
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    We've had some success with dd11 but things certainly aren't perfect. Her dx include inattentive type ADHD and an anxiety disorder. I do believe that the anxiety is better this year as she's in a spot academically where none of the work is hard in terms of being a thinking challenge. She's had some trouble with how focused her middle school is on details, sentence diagramming, drill, etc. Those are definitely weak points for her, but they don't tax her brain as much as frustrate her b/c she messes up on things she does know.

    We pushed to get her subject accelerated in math last year and, while it was a challenge last year b/c the accelerated class she was in (she was a 5th grader) was doing harder math than her accelerated 7th grade math is this year. It was a different curriculum than the middle school uses and it covered about half of what my dd13 was doing in Algebra I that year.

    I do think that it was worth the original pain, though, b/c it forced her to have to try to work on something that was closer to her ability. She fought us like crazy: didn't want to do the homework, study... but at the end of the year her group math scores were up considerably and she passed all of the district tests to continue in 7th grade math in 6th grade this year.

    What we're doing is not expecting her to perform fully on par with her ability but also not settling for high average performance. She's as accelerated as she can be in 6th grade without unusual accommodations that aren't often offered (like double subject acceleration or grade skipping). I honestly don't think that the later would work for her b/c she is too resistant to fighting through her roadblocks and they are too significant for her right now.

    At home, I've had to force myself to back off and let her be the one to ask for help rather than get angry when she constantly lowers her grades by forgetting to turn things in, bring things home, study properly for tests (if at all), etc. I'm trying to get her to take responsibility for herself. It is really hard, though, when I see someone messing up on things that are so easy to fix in my mind.

    Last year I had dh work with her on how to study for math b/c she and I were butting heads too much. Dh also has ADD and possibly some other LD and has a major block about math b/c he really struggled there, but he did better with her.

    The reason I pushed for the acceleration in math rather than elsewhere was twofold. One: she was already in a GT reading class daily and there was nothing else to ask for acceleration in as they didn't offer any other forms of acceleration. Two: she has what I see as a good intuitive grasp of math concepts and significant creativity in doing things like devising new formulas and ways to solve problems.

    Grinity #119448 01/06/12 03:19 AM
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    katebee Offline OP
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    Hi Grinity,

    I'm so glad you commented. I was hoping you would, as you were so helpful with my dd last year, who we were really struggling with! I'd be interested in what kind of testing you would recommend and who with - neuropsych? Also, what visual problems do you think may possibly be going on? DS does have heaps of dyslexia flags besides the obvious symptoms - left handed sister, heaps of ear infections/perforated ear drum on several occasions/failed hearing tests as a baby etc., ambidextrous until forced to pick a dominant hand at 6...

    DS does have friends, he's actually very popular as he's extremely witty but also extremely empathetic - however, his interests and dress sense are starting to make him stand out as they are a little quirky now! Hopefully his sense of humour will continue to carry him through. There were some bullying issues this time last year and he tried to 'reason' with the bullies for a few months, apparently, before finally losing the plot and giving two of them a whack in the school playground! Thankfully the school said it was so out of character that no real discipline was enforced as DS was already crying because of what he had done! The bullies never bothered him again though smile. Academically, he gets quite upset that his teacher makes him redo written work - this is because he is so inconsistent and can range between a B and D grade. If he's having a bad day it's perceived that he's not trying, but he can come home very upset sometimes.

    I'd be super grateful for any more advice you could throw my way! Hope you're well smile

    K x


    'I want, by understanding myself, to understand others.'
    K Mansfield
    Cricket2 #119449 01/06/12 03:23 AM
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    katebee Offline OP
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    Thanks for the input Cricket2. DS will have a new teacher next month so I'll have chat with him/her and see what we can get put in place. Ironically, maths is his (relative) weakness according to his assessment but is his strongest suit in school!

    I'll try and remember the responsibility thing too!

    K x


    'I want, by understanding myself, to understand others.'
    K Mansfield
    katebee #119452 01/06/12 05:11 AM
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    Thanks!
    His lowest score is visual spacial processing....he stops reading after a few pages saying his eyes hurt....teacher says he's average in literature. Somewhere between his litteral eyes and his mind there is some unsmoothness that is bottlenecking him. Possibly the same can be said of his ears.


    Practice and time to mature may be all he needs but if you can't find any local folks to check him and help the process along I would try a few things on my own. Trick is to keep it fun for you and for him. Eventually you may be able to get an overseas expert to skype with you, and you'll want a notebook of observations to help that process along.

    Has he met largeprint books? Do they make a difference? How long since the eye exam that got him the glasses? Sometimes vision can change abruptly. What did the developmental op say? If you spell a long word aloud can he decode it? My DH invented a game to pass the time where DS and I are challenged to find words that containes 2 particular letters. Then we each get a chance to pick letters. Once that gets too easy the picker chooses 3 letters, and then 4. DH can do 5, but I can't even keep track of what the 5 letters are! I've come to the conclusion that everyone live in the same world, but perceives it so uniquely that it may as well be individual worlds. DH and DS seem to have 'dry erase boards' in their minds where they can store visual images of random info, such as 7 digit phone numbers. They always beat me at the letter game 'ghost' - ug!!!

    I don't have much more than 3 random slots, and it's work to them from a misty thought into a picture. When DS wanted to learn to read, or do a math problem, I'd reach for pencil and paper so instinctively. I can't do anything until I write it down. DS would get frustrated, because he could see it all 'up there.' I'm a nonspeller, and there are lots of ways to be a good speller, but having some ability to recognize and store visual patterns is a big help. Weirdly, I'm terrific with 'seat of the pants' navigation - and I have a sort of 'spidy sense' of being 'too far east' when traveling, based on visual landmarks (LOL, I'm not tracking sounds or familiar smells!) but it's never 'thinking in pictures' like the movie of Temple Grandon. It's very vague, like hunches, or mild gas pain. But like with numbers (I look for the most original associations to make the telephone number non-random) or the find a word with X letters game (I look for compound words) a lot of my navigation prowess is pattern recognition - 'is this the sort of human-concentration that I'm used to seeing on my way to Jenny's house?' and 'were there so many factories last time were went?'

    I like the book 'Try to feel it my way: new help for touch dominant people and those who care about them' by
    Suzette Haden Elgin
    - not sure if this is your son's issue, but if he isn't smoothly responding to visual or audio - what else is left?

    A local reading tutor who is just plain experienced and loving might be really good (screen first - look for someone open minded and not relying on other people's thinking) even if she knows nothing about dyslexia or giftedness. I've always kicked around the idea of swaping tutoring with other local moms as it's emotionally harder to keep things fun with ones own child.
    I'd contact an occupational therapist who specialises in kids and 'sensory integration disorder.' I'd try a different Developmental Optomitrist. I'd bring the test results and a report card to show the difference.

    I'd play 'Banagrams' or 'Scrabble' - kids can play open book (or open Internet) or any other game that has letters in it. I love those magnetic fridge letters and refridgerator poetry magnets - although my DS hated all that sort of stuff.

    Some kids develop their reading through writing - so having a child make a video for grandma with telling stories with little dolls and then dubbing a narration over the video (scripted or unscripted) and providing 'close captioning' is a fun project for some families. I also love the idea of 'time capsules' of family life.

    Anyway -- have fun, think of all the money you didn't spend on tutors and experts, and take really good notes. It might be just me, but I think figuring out how other people experience the world is the funnest thing ever. On the downside, DS complains that DH and I treat him like a science experiment, but he says it with love. smile

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
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