Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 196 guests, and 25 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Joined: Oct 2012
    Posts: 71
    O
    OCJD Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    O
    Joined: Oct 2012
    Posts: 71
    Hello all,
    Background: DS 12 is in 7th grade in accelerated math and honors core. Tested into district GT program when he was 6 and tested on the WISC when he was 8 at 144 FSIQ/151 GAI.

    He had poor EF function in elementary school. It improved in 6th grade when he entered MS likely due to the crushing load of homework they had. Much of the work was really "how pretty can you make this look?" which for a kid with horrible handwriting who was more interested in thinking about the subjects he was learning than showing the teachers what they wanted to see in exactly the way they wanted to see it, it was a problem. Still received all As. Note that his highly ranked public school with many gifties and/or high performers that places 39 kids in the accelerated classes so they can reduce the numbers in nonaccelerated classes.

    Anyhoo, 7th grade now. He's worked harder and has made a conscientious effort to a better job on everything including doing it "the way they want to see it". But it's like the bar is higher to do pretty work and the grading opportunities are fewer and far between. Example: in science (in which there is no accelerated or honors track), he missed two points out of five on a chart of notes on the elements. I agree it was not beautiful but the information was there. This occurred on another project that was worth 5 points and missed one. Those three points are the difference, I kid you not, between an A and a B+ in the class. Because of this, my very science loving kid cannot qualify for Science Olympiad because at this point in time, despite As on the actual tests, he has a B+.

    Nonetheless, we are trying to use it as a teachable moment that you have to always do the best you can possibly do because sometimes those three points will come back to bite you. Sometimes it's easier for others to do pretty and neat work but he needs to work harder to achieve that result because he will not get the benefit of the doubt. So this kid, who has done two summers of Pre Med work at a local gifted academy and who is headed off to CTY's Intensive Studies course in Intro to Biomedical Science is feeling miserable because he's not even getting the opportunity to interview for Science Olympiad.

    This is slightly different from math. He's not a super-mathy kid. He vacillates between an A and high B+ through the year for dumb mistakes. He will inevitably get the answer right but fail to show all the work so he misses points. But since it's Algebra, that's the whole point, right? He's working harder there, too.

    This is a long way of asking this: since he's learning better work habits along the way and learning the material, isn't that the whole point? If getting a B+ in a class teaches him he can't coast or slack, won't that ultimately be a good thing that will help him have better success in class in high school and college?

    Or should I be worried that he might start do worse as the expectations grow?

    Anyone BTDT? Suggestions? Perspectives? Or is there really nothing to see here?
    Thank you kindly for any advice/insight.

    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,390
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,390
    Honestly, it sounds to me like you are handling this exactly right. Middle school is the best time to learn these kind of lessons.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by OCJD
    If getting a B+ in a class teaches him he can't coast or slack, won't that ultimately be a good thing that will help him have better success in class in high school and college?
    Only you have seen his work and know whether it was slipshod.

    To the degree that the Science Olympiad is based on "the way they want to see it" and work being "pretty" or "beautiful" in addition to having the correct answer and all information being present, this may be valid grading criteria for use as a screener for participation in the Science Olympiad.

    If the B+ was the result of not knowing the material, not studying, poor study habits, poor time management, or cavalier attitude, yes, he might use that grade as feedback to understand that something is not working and he needs to re-think his learning strategies.

    IMO, if the B+ is for picayune things like penmanship, neatness, "pretty" or "beautiful" work, etc, what he may learn from this experience is to develop perfectionist tendencies. This type of grading can teach kids to become procrastinators... afraid to begin their projects, because they are afraid of making an error. This "socially prescribed perfectionism" can be related to a fixed mindset (as opposed to growth mindset). I'm specifically referring to the aspect or application of fixed mindset in which gifted kids may stop taking appropriate risks in order to always be "right" or always be "smart" or never be "wrong", and this may work against them. A lack of appropriate risk-taking is the OPPOSITE of what is needed to be an effective and resilient scientist with patience for reiterative work.

    Originally Posted by OCJD
    Or should I be worried that he might start do worse as the expectations grow?
    Personally, I would be worried that the grading practices will undermine his motivation and internal drive. My concern is that the grading rubric may be constructed to provide "subjective" criteria which allow the teacher to create designer grades to lower the scores of some of the kids at the top in order to provide access to opportunity to kids who would not receive such high grades based on "objective" criteria.

    Unfortunately, the goal under common core is equal outcomes. Teachers are evaluated and schools are rated/ranked by their ability to close gaps in their classrooms. This is often achieved by capping the growth (and opportunities) of kids at the top.

    Originally Posted by OCJD
    this kid, who has done two summers of Pre Med work at a local gifted academy and who is headed off to CTY's Intensive Studies course in Intro to Biomedical Science is feeling miserable because he's not even getting the opportunity to interview for Science Olympiad.
    I would encourage him to:
    - incorporate the feedback he received, as a good scientist must do,
    - understand that scientists must follow documentation standards,
    - look forward to his CTY course,
    - be a good sport and wish his classmates well at the Science Olympiad,
    - exhibit a positive attitude (athletes can be role models, as they may also miss out on competitions for a variety of reasons),
    - understand that much of life is a competition (hopefully a friendly competition, but to a degree it is what we make it),
    - practice planning ahead, starting early, making a "sloppy copy" before creating his final products for class. Basically learning to "play the game."

    At the same time, I would keep an eye on future grading practices to determine whether your son's work is being fairly assessed, or whether the grading system seems rather arbitrary, subjective, and/or selectively applied... possibly with the purpose and effect of achieving quotas.

    Originally Posted by OCJD
    Algebra
    Showing work in Algebra is generally required. Others need to be able to follow it. The question remains - how "pretty" must it be?

    Joined: Oct 2012
    Posts: 71
    O
    OCJD Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    O
    Joined: Oct 2012
    Posts: 71
    Thanks for the input Elizabeth! I appreciate it very much.

    Indigo, all very very helpful points. I forgot to note that my "pretty" and "beautiful" comments stem from the fact that, not only does DS have horrible handwriting/penmanship, it's pathologically bad. Years ago, Polarbear recommended that I seek an eval for him for dysgraphia based upon my description of his efforts. We talked ourselves out of that, which I am regretting. It's not that he's just sloppy but it's that his hands are physically incapable (it seems) of holding a pencil correctly and his hands sort of let loose and can't be kept in check. It's the same with any coloring or (sigh) map coloring (which they do a lot of). I thought MS would include more typing but that's not been the case yet.

    Your point is well-taken. I think the teachers look for "neat" work. His work will never look "neat" when handwritten.
    So I can't blame the teachers, really, if they receive his work, look at it, and just say ugh...I'll get to it later. We just have to deal with that part of it.

    OTOH, his orchestra evaluations call for 4-5 page typewritten analyses of his most recent performance and he has no problem with getting full credit for that. He's happy to spend the time putting in all the fancy graphics and cutouts of the score, etc. So, when the playing field is somewhat level...

    And, yes, trust me, I am ALWAYS on him about making him redo work when it's illegible. Ditto for algebra. Yes, indeed, I understand that it's all about showing work so, if he doesn't, he should get marked off. We make him redo his math homework all the time.

    Yes, those are all extremely helpful suggestions. I will implement those today with him. I like the idea of explaining how scientists need to be meticulous.

    He is working harder this year so I'm encouraged and try to emphasize that it's the effort that counts. He's sort of young for his grade as he won't turn 13 until right when 8th grade starts but I think his EF is showing signs of life. smile

    Thank you again!!!

    Thanks

    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 2,035
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 2,035
    Is it too late to get a dysgraphia assessment. If he could get accommodations to the pretty bit. Ds7 has a teacher who likes posters to have all the background filled in - it drives me crazy but I assume it is for tbe kids who are arty but not academic. It is also the only thing about her class that annoys me.

    For your son - can you see some other work? I think it is a fair to allocate 1 point out of 5 to apprearance but 2 and especially 3 is too much. I would be worried if pretty with mistakes in content was getting the same as great content but not pretty.

    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,390
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,390
    Another thing you could try over the summer, if he's up for it, is teaching him to use LaTeX or some other software for generating "pretty" math output. He probably wouldn't be able to use it for classwork, but it would allow him to turn in not only legible but lovely homework. (You might need to get permission from teachers to have the answers on a different page from the problems they hand out, but that wouldn't be a problem in my school. YMMV as always.)

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    [quote=OCJD]not only does DS have horrible handwriting/penmanship, it's pathologically bad. Years ago, Polarbear recommended that I seek an eval for him for dysgraphia based upon my description of his efforts. We talked ourselves out of that, which I am regretting. It's not that he's just sloppy but it's that his hands are physically incapable (it seems) of holding a pencil correctly and his hands sort of let loose and can't be kept in check. It's the same with any coloring or (sigh) map coloring (which they do a lot of). I thought MS would include more typing but that's not been the case yet.[quote]

    Sorry, I had to quote the polarbear part because it's not everyday I get to quote someone quoting me lol!

    Seriously, it's not too late to get that eval wink If you have the eval and there is a challenge with handwriting such as dysgraphia, you can get accommodations through a 504 plan... and those accommodations can include keyboarding and/or not having points taken off for sloppy handwriting. JMO, but if it is dysgraphia, there are reasons to get the diagnosis and get accommodations that go beyond just getting an accommodation to avoid penalizing for what looks like sloppy handwriting. Handwriting takes up all of a dysgraphic person's working memory - it's arduous. Think of what it might be like to use handwriting it if wasn't automatic - and then think about what it would feel like to have to redo written work to make it look neater when it's not automatic.

    Even it if's not dysgraphia, from your description of his pencil grip and not being able to keep it "in check" it sounds like a work with an OT on handwriting might be beneficial.

    Re the Science Olympiad - we didn't have that at my ds' school so I don't know anything about it, but if it's something your ds really wanted to participate in, and he's only been held out of it by one B+ that was due to handwriting, I'd advocate to get him into it. I know that may sound pushy and like you're attempting to get around rules... but that's the way things sometimes work in school districts. We see that a lot in our school district with parents advocating for kids who fall just below cut-offs for things like gifted programming... and parents actually are often successful in advocating. If you don't ask, it won't happen.

    And I agree that middle school is the place to learn that it's important to show your work in math and to make your work neat and legible... but if there's a challenge that's preventing handwriting from being legible, middle school is also a great time to find out exactly what's up - before the huge workload that comes with high school is on the horizon. Grades are also meaningful in a larger way once you get to high school because they'll go onto a college application. Middle school grades will fade away into distant memory in just a few short years and chances are no one outside your family and the Science Olympiad crew will ever see them. So - I wouldn't worry too much about his grades so far, I'd get an eval, and I'd advocate to get him into Science Olympiad.

    Re typing/keyboarding/computers in middle school - we've found that in our local schools, teachers are still requiring handwriting through high school in many instances. Having accommodations through either a 504 plan or an IEP is really the only way I think you can guarantee getting around handwriting classwork in most school districts.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    ps - my ds attended several CTY Intensive Studies summer courses in sciences and he *loved* them.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    I agree with puffin and polarbear on getting the dysgraphia eval, with puffin that "I would be worried if pretty with mistakes in content was getting the same as great content but not pretty", and with polarbear on considering advocacy. smile

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Middle school grades will fade away into distant memory in just a few short years...
    Unfortunately, this may be a false belief, as the U.S. Department of Education, in a factsheet dated July 2009, describes Statewide Longitudinal Data Systems which have been funded through grants since 2005:
    The Recovery Act competition requires that the data systems have the capacity to link preschool, K-12, and postsecondary education as well as workforce data. To receive State Fiscal Stabilization Funds, a state must provide an assurance that it will establish a longitudinal data system that includes the 12 elements described in the America COMPETES Act, and any data system developed with Statewide longitudinal data system funds must include at least these 12 elements. The elements are:

    1.An unique identifier for every student that does not permit a student to be individually identified (except as permitted by federal and state law);
    2.The school enrollment history, demographic characteristics, and program participation record of every student;
    3.Information on when a student enrolls, transfers, drops out, or graduates from a school;
    4.Students scores on tests required by the Elementary and Secondary Education Act;
    5.Information on students who are not tested, by grade and subject;
    6.Students scores on tests measuring whether they're ready for college;
    7.A way to identify teachers and to match teachers to their students;
    8.Information from students' transcripts, specifically courses taken and grades earned;
    9.Data on students' success in college, including whether they enrolled in remedial courses;
    10.Data on whether K-12 students are prepared to succeed in college;
    11.A system of auditing data for quality, validity, and reliability; and
    12.The ability to share data from preschool through postsecondary education data systems.

    ...These data systems will capture data on students from one grade to the next...
    emphasis added

    Joined: Mar 2016
    Posts: 9
    M
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    M
    Joined: Mar 2016
    Posts: 9
    Indigo said
    "understand that much of life is a competition (hopefully a friendly competition, but to a degree it is what we make it)"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Once you get a job and have a family, is much of life a competition? Mostly, it's collaboration - my company might have competitors but my job mostly revolves around collaboration with my fellow workers to get the job done. In my family, it mostly collaboration to get chores done and needs met. In my social life, it's to meet with friends and have a good time.


    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    Originally Posted by mpledger
    Indigo said
    "understand that much of life is a competition (hopefully a friendly competition, but to a degree it is what we make it)"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Once you get a job and have a family, is much of life a competition? Mostly, it's collaboration - my company might have competitors but my job mostly revolves around collaboration with my fellow workers to get the job done. In my family, it mostly collaboration to get chores done and needs met. In my social life, it's to meet with friends and have a good time.
    I stand by my comment, in the context in which it was given: advice to a 7th grader who, although apparently well-qualified, was not allowed to interview for a spot in the school's Science Olympiad team.

    mpledger, you changed the context significantly in applying the comment to the context of your life situation as a parent with secure employment. Obviously, a typical 7th grader would continue to encounter varying degrees of "competition" to get from his/her current life situation to yours... for example, this might include:
    - competition for participation in further school activities (Science Olympiad, try-outs for school play, sports teams, and other extracurricular activities),
    - earning the assignment of "1st chair" in band for one's particular musical instrument,
    - acceptance to a college with a selective admissions process,
    - qualifying for and receiving scholarships and awards,
    - building a social circle (including dating),
    - self-advocacy, negotiation, and/or "selling" an idea to influence a course of events, provide opportunity, or change an outcome
    - presenting opposing or rival ideas to innovate changes in research, policy, etc
    - managing one's time and financial budget in which one weighs competing wants and needs and determines priorities,
    - establishing one's career through a series of screenings and evaluations provided by applying for internships, engaging in job interviews vying for offers, promotions, etc.

    A 7th grader benefits by understanding that "much of life is a competition (hopefully a friendly competition, but to a degree it is what we make it)"... as this advice may help prepare the child to see that it is a near universal experience to "win some and lose some"... therefore to be resilient when one does not prevail... not to gloat when one does prevail... and to learn to be an effective decision-maker when faced with competing choices or alternatives.


    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    New, and you'd think I'd have a clue...
    by astronomama - 03/24/24 06:01 AM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    Son 2e, wide discrepancy between CogAT-Terranova
    by astronomama - 03/23/24 07:21 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5