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    Joined: Nov 2014
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    My 11 year old son is gifted in math (98-99th percentile in achievement and ability testing), but often misses problems due to poor organization, not writing out all the steps, misreads his own handwriting, laziness, etc. It's enough of a problem to prevent him from making A's in math despite his ability. His math teacher acknowledges his issues, but isn't concerned because he gets the concepts. Does anyone have any advice for how to deal with this? He's in an accelerated program and will start taking high school math classes in 7th grade. Obviously I want his GPA to reflect his ability.

    Are there tutors that specialize in this kind of issue (executive functioning?), or techniques I can use to help him aside from the obvious advice to line things up, check your work, etc?

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    AoPS did a lot to cure this problem for my DD12. She took Algebra A, and the combination of losing points for typing in the answer wrong the first time or two, but still having some points available no matter how many times she did it wrong before she got it, was motivating for her to start checking her work but not giving up on the class entirely. I think there were a couple of weeks where I sat with her while she was doing the homework and cued her to recheck if I saw her make a mistake, but I didn't have to do it for long at all. Obviously this is a YMMV thing, but that's what worked for us.

    ETA: Looking back, I think there were two stages, each lasting for a couple of weeks, that I used that helped DD get over this. The first was sitting with her and telling her to recheck as soon as she made a mistake. Then there was a stage where I would look at her answer with her and tell her whether it was OK to submit or she should go over all of her work again.

    Last edited by ElizabethN; 01/26/17 10:19 PM.
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    It really did help to have the feedback not be coming from me. That way, I could be the coach without having to also be the judge. AoPS is nice because the instructors and quite willing to tell you what's wrong with your solution when it's wrong, but they also are willing to give positive feedback unleavened with "yes but"s if it really is good. I think they have a good feel for the "right" amount of encouragement for kids.

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    Appleton, each of my kids went through an adjustment when they hit the stage where they really needed to start paying attention to neatness and writing down steps in order to not miss getting problems correct - it's often something that happens with kids at the time they move from math that is so easy they can do it in their head to math that requires keeping multi-steps straight. If that's what's up, for my kids the thing that ultimately worked was just to explain when they showed me their work or were frustrated over a test, but the key that motivated them to start writing all steps down, checking their work etc was to go through the experience of losing points due to not doing those things.

    I think it's interesting that you noted your ds is gifted in math. Is there any chance that he may have some of the same issues you've noted with math work in other subjects (issues with organizing his work, inability to read his handwriting, perceived laziness etc)?If so, he *might* be dealing with something beyond a stage of needing to learn to check his math work etc. I looked back at your previous posts and noticed that you mentioned dyslexia in your family, and that your ds has a gap in profile on earlier testing between verbal and non-verbal. I don't know anything about your ds other than what you've posted here, but if he seems to have consistently and significantly stronger non-verbal vs verbal ability scores over time and you're noticing what looks like these type of problems with academic work... there's the possibility he might be a 2e kid who's issue isn't obvious simply because his high ability allows him to compensate.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Perhaps it is a transitional problem, that's best case scenario. If I continue to work with him at home, hopefully it will click. I also wonder how much the teacher emphasizes organization while solving a problem. He'll have a new math teacher next year which should help clarify how big the problem is. Sometimes I am also irritated at the lack of space that is available for him to solve problems on daily work/tests, but that is something that he will continue to experience and needs to learn how to deal with.

    It's entirely possible that there's something going on with him, though I doubt it is dyslexia due to his excellent spelling ability. His fine motor and gross motor abilities are well below average. The handwriting doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with text, writing numbers correctly and lining things up seems to be more of an issue. He also spaces out sometimes, but it also capable of being engrossed in a task if it's interesting to him.

    In terms of verbal ability, he reads well (3 grades above level) and scores around 90th percentile on most achievement tests. So lower than math/nonverbal, but it's not a huge discrepancy. His writing ability is also good, he scored in the advanced range on his most recent state testing.

    I feel like his verbal expression is significantly worse than that, but of course that is not something that is tested. He's in a gifted magnet program, and it is obvious to me that the other kids are far better at expressing themselves than he is. I haven't been too worried about it as he does grow in that area every year.

    I don't know if that tells you anything. I don't feel like anything I've mentioned fits enough diagnostic criteria for anything I'm aware of. His biggest weaknesses are verbal expression, fine motor skills and neatness/organization. Strengths are memory, math and spatial abilities. He loves drawing things in sketchup (3D modeling program) and is quite good at competitive mental math.

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    What Portia and ElizabethN said.


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    Still struggling to find a solution to DS15. He can do the math, but gets lost in the later stages. Sloppiness and mistaking (flipping) + and - signs. Glazing over parenthesis and exponentials, etc. etc. etc. DS school thinks dropping DS from honors math is the answer. DS has been evaluated and I am just waiting for the written speech and language, OT and AT evaluations.

    Modmath is supposed to be a great app written by a dyslexic/dysgraphic, although my DSs schools are still resisting AT. Graph paper to keep numbers in the lines. Use of highlighters before beginning any problems, go through and highlight all the plus (blue) minus (pink) signs and exponents, to remind oneself to execute the correct operations. Thanks to aeh for the highlighter tip. Maybe an easier writing tool that glides better?

    For organization I ended up getting a backpack for DS that has endless pockets so there can be a place for everything. Color folders for paper. As a backup an iphone scanner app (genius scan or camscanner) to scan and convert any paper handout to pdf.

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    Originally Posted by Appleton
    His biggest weaknesses are verbal expression, fine motor skills and neatness/organization.
    Quote
    Sometimes I am also irritated at the lack of space that is available for him to solve problems on daily work/tests, but that is something that he will continue to experience and needs to learn how to deal with. [/quote[

    Originally Posted by Appleton
    I doubt it is dyslexia due to his excellent spelling ability. His fine motor and gross motor abilities are well below average.

    What you've written sounds like it *could* be dysgraphia - it might not be, but the observations you've made might fit. FWIW, dysgraphia and dyslexia, while they aren't the same challenge, do sometimes co-occur in the same family.

    Originally Posted by Appleton
    The handwriting doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with text, writing numbers correctly and lining things up seems to be more of an issue.

    The issue with lining thing up could be dysgraphia. There are also dysgraphics who write legibly, but handwriting is still an issue because of the effort required to produce it. If you haven't ever timed his handwriting it might be worth doing just to see whether or not he's writing at a pace that's similar to his grade level peers. One easy way to do this is to ask him to write the alphabe, upper and lower case for each letter, and time him. Calculate his rate in letters/minute and then google "letters per minute + grade 7" (or whatever grade he's in) - you'll find reference ranges to compare.

    Originally Posted by Appleton
    He also spaces out sometimes, but it also capable of being engrossed in a task if it's interesting to him.

    My ds seemed to do this to (still does sometimes) - the spacing out happened when he couldn't do the task he was faced with. The cause and effect relationship isn't obvious at all with kids who have an LD. I'd start paying close attention to the tasks that he seems to space out during - if you look closely over a period of time you might notice commonalities that will give you insight into what's really going on. For instance, when my ds was in elementary school he could write sometimes and would stare off into space when he was supposed to be writing at other times. When we looked into the actual assignments, he was able to write when asked a question that could be answered with factual information, but he was completely stumped by open-ended questions.

    [quote]His writing ability is also good, he scored in the advanced range on his most recent state testing.

    FWIW, my ds is severely dysgraphic and has an expressive language disorder. When he was in elementary school he could not answer an open-ended question or write a paragraph independently if his life depended on it. Yet he was still able to score in the advanced range on state writing testing. The key with understanding any type of test results is seeing what type of questions are asked and what type of response is required - our state testing focused on grammar and understanding context from reading. Those were two things my ds does very well with. There was an essay portion of the exam, but it was such a small part of the scoring that a total flop on it could still land a kid as "advanced" if they did well on the other categories.

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    I feel like his verbal expression is significantly worse than that, but of course that is not something that is tested.

    While they aren't routinely tested as part of classwork or state testing, if you have concerns you can request an evaluation by the school (or seek private testing. With concerns about verbal expression you might want to request that he be evaluated by an SLP and also request the TOWL (Test of Written Language). One thing that I didn't realize when my ds was young was that SLPs don't only work with people who have difficulty with pronunciation/etc, they also work with people who have difficulty with expressive language.

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    He's in a gifted magnet program, and it is obvious to me that the other kids are far better at expressing themselves than he is. I haven't been too worried about it as he does grow in that area every year.

    Growth every year is good, and students with LDs will often still grow academically even if their challenge isn't recognized, accommodated, or remediated. The downside to moving forward without a thorough understanding is that the growth the student experiences is limited, and they may also become very frustrated, particularly if they feel that the peers around them aren't struggling with the same issue or are progressing further. The other difficulty that will potentially come up with expressive language challenges is peer-related - as our kids move on through middle school and into high school, expressive language challenges can evolve into social skills challenges.

    Quote
    I don't feel like anything I've mentioned fits enough diagnostic criteria for anything I'm aware of.

    As parents we know our child better than anyone else, but we simply don't have all the answers. There's no reason to expect that you'd be able to figure out a diagnosis by looking at symptoms on your own. What you can do is gather all the data you can, previous testing, homework, classwork, your observations of struggles (where, what), developmental history - and take all of those, plus your ds, to either a private neuropsych or request an eval through the school. The professionals will have an opinion re diagnosis (or not) after they've had a chance to review all the data and observe your ds through testing.


    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Emma - thanks for some great specific ideas. Very helpful!

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    I feel like I posted this same thing last year. Somehow it seems to have improved for my daughter this year after moving into Algebra 1. It may be as polarbear said--she had to learn that she could not longer get away with shortcuts she used in previous years.


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