Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy NPR on struggle

I heard this on the radio this morning and thought it was interesting:

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/features/npr.php?id=164793058

Would love to know what others think.

That is a very interesting article/radio show segment!
I think Americans absolutely do think that a child's success is simply due to intelligence and not due to effort. I have heard it played the other way too- that in many Asian cultures, the parent thinks that every child can ace every test if they just try hard enough, not accounting for the role intelligence or learning disabilities, etc. plays in success. Probably the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes.

I liked the article. Thank you.

I've always thought this to be a necessary part of instruction, and I've used it with DS7 as much as possible. It's one of the reasons I'm probably going to use Art of Problem Solving with him soon.

I did enjoy the article, thanks.

What concerns me about my son is that he accomplishes so much without putting much effort into it. I worry that he's NOT learning to struggle. About a year ago, he took a belt test for martial arts and failed. I was actually glad that he failed so that he'd have to work to pass it the next time. I think sometimes gifted kids don't develop much of a work ethic because everything comes so easily to them.

When he was younger, it was easier to work with him and present him with activites to help him learn to work at something. As he has gotten older, though, it has gotten harder, both because of time contraints and because of his own attitudes and willingness to be directed by Mom.

Also, it is hard to praise him for things that he achieves without much effort. For example, at a recent piano competition, he earned a "superior" ranking. Even he said "I didn't work enough on this to get that ranking". So, how to praise for effort instead of accomplishment.

I can see a lot of sides to this story.


Yes, I agree completely. Here's an example of the two two extremes. But based on what I read, I wonder if the study was oversimplified.


Caveat: I'm not sure what they mean by "impossible." Impossible as in, "division by zero is impossible?" Or "it was a tensor calculus problem, which is effectively impossible for six-year-old kids?" Also, did anyone ask for help or look in classroom math books? Was this allowed? The article doesn't say.


If the American kids gave up just because they "hadn't had this," then maybe they gave up too easily. If the Japanese kids kept plugging away just because it's what you're supposed to do, then maybe they didn't know when to quit. But the article doesn't show the problem, so it's impossible to know if it was over their heads by just a bit, over their heads a lot, or was actually unsolvable. Giving up would be the correct strategy for a bunch of first graders presented with tensor calculus, whereas plugging away would have been appropriate if it had been a basic multiplication problem.

Example: I have a question that needs to be studied via statistical analysis. I think I know the overall answer, but I can't be sure, so I'm going to pay some statisticians at a local university to help me. I'm not giving up; I'm recognizing that sometimes it's better to consult people who have expertise that I don't. People do this all the time. So when do kids learn when to ask for help?

Alternatively, I once worked with a guy who would fold when he was presented with something outside his narrow comfort zone. This was very frustrating for the people around him.

Err. I seem to have my reviewer cap on today.

Repeating Iucounu's quote:

I completely agree with this. Like many children discussed here, DS found school to be quite easy.

When he showed an interest in chess, we encouraged it in part because this is an activity where we knew he would have to struggle. While strong for his age, he mostly plays adults at his skill level which means he ends up losing about half the time, which I think is good for him (even though he doesn't). His reward comes from eventually beating these opponents consistently, as his skills improve.

We also encourage him to play sports with other kids in the neighborhood, even though that is a distinct area of weakness for him (he inherited my lack of coordination!).

Thanks Val -
I agree that I would need to understand more about the study to conclude that the "impossible problem" study supports the idea that there are differences in persistence versus differences in other factors - like self-assertiveness.

But I do think that a few ideas are very worthy of consideration here... the one that I have been "struggling" with lately is, "what do I tell my child about her own abilities" and how might that explanation shape her future learning? Last week dd7 came home from school and asked where she got her ability from - mom or dad? She both assumed she had special ability and she assumed it was genetic. She has been asking me a lot of these types of questions lately so I am assuming it might be the hot topic on the playground. "You get your ability from your dad" vs. "you know so much because you love to read and you read a lot more than other kids" are two very different answers - both of them with quite a bit of truth to them. This is further complicated by the fact that I have one kid who is very typical in her ability...so I almost want to downplay the genetic part and emphasize the hard work and practice part for all.

I also like the idea (wearing my teacher hat now) of teaching students how to struggle - to reward struggle, to show how a student might struggle and then master a concept. I admit, that when I ask a question or have someone come to the front of the class I will call on the student that I think knows the correct answer... and, if a student gets it wrong, I fairly quickly call on another student instead of forcing someone to explain their thinking until they arrive at the right answer. I might re-think that. There is such value in that.

As for the idea that a very smart kid might not have enough opportunities to struggle - I have not found that. Even if school is a breeze, there are other struggles - with "managing emotions" as I like to call it in my house or with running (a particular challenge for my oldest). It might be helpful to conceptualize those things as opportunities to learn how to struggle.

mom123, I saw a reference here a few months ago for Carol Dweck's Mindset book that gets into some of this sort of issue. I found the book interesting if somewhat repetitive in her examples.

I saw things I was saying incidentally that would lead down that low drive path. I've tried to shift to words like potential and interest.

Thanks Zen - I'll check it out. What we tell our kids about themselves is so important in how they ultimately will come to view themselves. I would love for them to think of themselves as being smart - but seeing themselves as both smart and hardworking is probably even better.

I am not sure where I fall on the spectrum of having them think there are things that they are naturally good at and things they are not naturally good at vs. things they have worked at and things they must just work harder, for longer, at.

I doubt it. Kids test their self-perceptions against reality, and what you tell your children about themselves is more likely to affect how they view *you* in the long run.

I wonder why people think it is more pro-social to believe one's accomplishments are due to effort rather than ability. Believing the former can cause you to regard less-accomplished people as lazy.