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    #184921 03/14/14 05:13 PM
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    DS8 is PG and an autodidact.

    He's also intensely independent. He sees everyone as a peer and resists presumed authority by any adult (including mom and dad) as unreasonable and unfair.

    Like some teenagers, he values his personal freedom over his desire to please others.

    Has anyone else experienced this with young PG kids and if so, have you found effective techniques to be a more effective parent (and teacher)?

    As I write this and use the teenager analogy, I think it might help to take him on more camping trips and other outdoor adventures. These are situations where a child's natural dependence on adults rises rapidly to the surface.

    Any ideas would be appreciated!


    DS10 (DYS, homeschooled)
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    Reasoning, discussions of fairness, explanation of onus under the law and the option of withholding of a commodity my ds finds highly valuable that is inarguably my right to withhold: my attention.

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    Originally Posted by Zen Scanner
    Reasoning, discussions of fairness, explanation of onus under the law and the option of withholding of a commodity my ds finds highly valuable that is inarguably my right to withhold: my attention.

    Zen,

    These are great suggestions!

    The challenge is that DS8 can entertain himself for a seemingly unlimited period of time. He loves attention, but he loves self-determination even more.

    Also, he learns from everything I do and has already learned that he can withhold his own attention from me. I don't want it to turn into a battle of who can ignore whom the longest.


    DS10 (DYS, homeschooled)
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    DD8 is also intensely independent. I sometimes feel like I am living through the teenage years, now, too. She has never had a full IQ test, but the abbreviated test she has had gave numbers above the DYS minimum.

    DD can entertain herself for very long periods of time (and was always extremely creative and never bored when amusing herself on time outs).

    DD prefers her independence over her desire to please others.

    I do not have any suggestions, but I, too, feel as though I could use some ideas about how to be more effective with such an independent young child.

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    Well, some aspects of being a child are seriously limiting in terms of self-sufficiency and autonomy.

    After all, no matter how mature a PG child might be, they really do not possess the wisdom that ONLY comes with experiences. Mostly experiences that we wish we hadn't had-- if you see my point.

    So ask yourself whether or not such a child could truly (for example) be entirely self-sufficient if lost on the subway... solicited by a child-predator... without cash and with no way home...

    Can s/he cook and clean and pay bills for him/herself? Can s/he plan and budget for a home improvement project? Tell you how to maintain a car properly?

    Kids need parents-- even PG ones who are autodidacts need them. Why? Because they are still children, in spite of the huge vocabulary and stunning ability to acquire information. Information and understanding isn't the same thing as good judgment.

    This is where things like "NO, I won't stop playing video games and go to bed" comes from. Now, they may be right that they can function (minimally) at school just fine and never have their grades slip a bit with only 2-5 hours of sleep... but OTHER things would be problematic, and it's not good for development or social skills, certainly.

    Kids are also much more self-centered than they will be when they are older. Ergo, it's unwise to hand them the reins when they basically make all of their decisions as little dictators.

    THAT aspect of things is where "NO. You do not have the right to treat your parents as household servants" comes from. wink

    Negotiate away-- by all means, in fact. But do remember that "Because I'm your Mom/Dad" is a completely valid reason for some things that they simply lack the life experience or maturity to understand. I quit talking at that point with my DD, and she's been like this since she was about four, too.

    She gets it from me, btw. blush


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Please accept my apologies as I have posted this resource previously therefore to some it may seem redundant and not freshly tailored to the question posed... and yet the book A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children can be so valuable.

    One point in the book is that children are always motivated, however they may not be motivated toward the things which parents may wish they would be.

    Keeping up with what currently motivates a child and dealing in the child's currency may help parents guide their children.

    Because these kiddos may find schooling to be intellectually restrictive, they may be interested to get on with life beyond school. Although it may seem years away, parents may wish to look ahead into things like gap year programs, dual enrollment, and/or early college. Being prepared to help kiddos get their educational needs met when those needs may be outside the norm may be one way for parents to remain relevant and respected, and for the children to "just be kids" (that is, to be able to rely on adults). Possibly similar to the camping scenario mentioned by another poster?

    These powerhouse kiddos may need and appreciate explanations on how the world works: how processes and procedures work in different organizations. This may help them see the value of certain rules. Having the information they require may help them plan their time, behavior, and studies to attain their goals. Essentially working to empower and guide them, not contain them, may be a beneficial approach.

    Their questions may be along the lines of, "I can see it, but how do I get there from here?" For example, if s/he sees a judge and thinks s/he may want to be a judge someday... s/he may wish to visit a courtroom to see cases, and also learn the number of years of education required, the courses to be taken in college, what those courses consist of, how they relate to what s/he is learning now in elementary/middle/high school, etc. Parents may wish to be prepared to assist with researching college course catalogs.

    For parents looking ahead to help kiddos who need educational experiences beyond the norm, The Davidson database provides guidebooks: http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/Article/Davidson_Young_Scholars___Guidebooks_375.aspx

    Best wishes to all on this thread!

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    Something that has taught our son many life skills has been martial arts. He has learned so many things besides self-defense. He has learned seniority because belts are by rank. The longer, harder someone works, the higher they are ranked. Respect is earned. Every goal has steps to get there and builds upon the last. It's also not academic, so a PG kid can't blow through. It takes time, dedication and good coordination. It's just a suggestion that has worked well for us.


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    Originally Posted by SynapticStorm
    He's also intensely independent. He sees everyone as a peer and resists presumed authority by any adult (including mom and dad) as unreasonable and unfair.

    SynapticStorm, I have a 9 yr old dd who, although not PG, is profoundly intensely independent and fights authority from parents etc, seeing it as unreasonable and unfair. Although she is not an autodidact across-the-board she is possibly profoundly gifted in her ability to size up how to manipulate a situation with parents to simply make it seemingly impossible to deal with her smile

    So... fwiw, my advice isn't worth much as this is something we have struggled with for years and continue to struggle with in parenting her, but these are the things that have helped some:

    1) She will accept authority from the few people she chooses to - so we have her on a gymnastics team (her choice, and she loves it). Although she gets frustrated with them at times, she respects that her coaches are experts and will listen to what they say - and the cool thing about that is that on her gymnastics team (as well as on other sports teams as well as some group activity teams that my kids have participated in), the lessons taught and values that are talked about don't apply to just gymnastics, but to overall development and to life. So while she's at gymnastics she's also learning some life skills that are important at home and school and she's listening because she respects the authority of the coaches.

    2) Church and Sunday School. I am not talking about one specific faith here - from what I've seen and experienced all religions have at their core the same essential set of ideas and values re how we treat other human beings. For all the lessons that my child *won't* listen to at home, she listens at church. This doesn't translate directly into good behavior at home, but it gives us, as parents, a talking point from which to start when we need to address behavior issues - we can substitute "because your parent says" with "because this is what God wants us to do" or "this is what God teaches". I am sure it wouldn't work for every stubborn child out there, but it works (somewhat) for our dd.

    The key from our experience hasn't been so much having a gymnastics coach specifically or having God as our "go-to" as much as it is having some other authority figure, outside of parents, that our dd respects.

    The other thing that has helped us is to simply ignore (as best we can) when she is in full-on raging-against-parents meltdowns, and talk it through with her *later* when she is calm. She is a personality that relies on logic to understand the world - although it can be a very twisted convoluted logic. When we do talk to her and try to reason with her, we approach it through her way of looking at things - logic. So wait for calm, and meet her where she's at in terms of how she tries to make sense of the world.

    Quote
    Like some teenagers, he values his personal freedom over his desire to please others.

    Our dd values her personal *desires* over desire to please others. In some ways, I feel like it's a bit of a developmental delay. Most kids typically go through a phase at around 6-7 years old where they discover in a meaningful way that they are separate individuals from their parents and that the world doesn't revolve around themselves as center of the universe. With my dd, I feel that she's still coping with that phase of moving from being the center of her own universe to realizing other people also have perfectly reasonable needs, desires, feelings etc. This comes out the most when she's upset - that inability to understand that her actions impact others feelings etc.

    Quote
    As I write this and use the teenager analogy, I think it might help to take him on more camping trips and other outdoor adventures. These are situations where a child's natural dependence on adults rises rapidly to the surface.

    On the surface, I think this is a good idea. I have to chuckle though, because we are a family that camps a lot and does a lot of outdoor activities, and to be honest, for us, it's simply been one more place for dd to continue to prove that she doesn't need her parents for much of anything (in her mind lol). The one benefit to the outdoors however, is that when she screams in outrage, at least the neighbors don't have to listen wink

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    SynapticStorm, I have a 9 yr old dd who, although not PG, is profoundly intensely independent and fights authority from parents etc, seeing it as unreasonable and unfair. Although she is not an autodidact across-the-board she is possibly profoundly gifted in her ability to size up how to manipulate a situation with parents to simply make it seemingly impossible to deal with her smile

    So... fwiw, my advice isn't worth much as this is something we have struggled with for years and continue to struggle with in parenting her, but these are the things that have helped some:

    This is very helpful. Thank you, polarbear.

    It's a great relief to know that others face similar challenges.

    Last summer, we talked about each member of our extended family and DS8 identified expertise that each of them had from which he could learn. I think it was a good exercise and appeared to build respect for these individuals and others in general.

    Perhaps I can try something similar, but cover more common adult vs. child skills.

    It's hard for him to accept that experience alone makes someone a better decision maker. He has seen sufficient evidence in his life to know that isn't the case.

    The lesson he hasn't yet learned is that everyone has strengths and he can learn to identify and respect those strengths. This will make it easier to respect and follow the lead of others and will also allow him to organize and lead effectively himself.

    Last edited by SynapticStorm; 03/15/14 04:37 PM. Reason: minor typo

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    I use try to use humor as much as possible with our 2e/pg ds8. That helps.

    We're un/homeschooling our ds8 too. He resists our authority (mine and dh) and everyone else's authority (ie. any therapists, swimming teacher, etc.). Ds spends lots of time reading on his own or puttering about at home. He is a self-directed, self-motivated learner too.

    I'm very lucky because most of the therapists, who he's had, have had tons of experience in dealing with independent (not pg) kids like him who have physical issues (not cognitive ones!). I've been told numerous times not to push ds8 too much, but more to nudge him and try getting him to do things in a playful manner rather than in an authority style. They also have used humor as much as possible to get ds to cooperate. Ds8 doesn't want to swim and often resists anything physical because it's not always easy or fun for him to do (ie. he's got to put some effort and practice into it and isn't going to come automatically or naturally to him).

    I've recently picked up the book, Smart but Scattered, again in attempt to work more with ds8 and the executive skills that are lacking. This entails task initiation (doing things you don't necessarily want to do), planning things out, sequencing, time management, etc. All those kinds of things usually don't happen overnight or without parental involvement.

    I agree with HowlerKarma here that those skills need to be learnt and mastered for an 8-yr-old to become truly independent regardless if they're pg or not.

    Not sure if my ds8 has learned that EVERYONE has strengths and weaknesses and that he can learn to identity and respect those strengths either. My son has always considered himself a leader and never a follower. This also poses a problem for him with playdates or other times when the situation should be more give and take from both parties. But I am working on him being a temporary follower and letting others have a turn being a leader. Not easy.


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