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    Joined: Nov 2012
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    Hello all,

    I've been reading widely on these forums since getting testing results for my DS7 in September. The cumulative wisdom has been most helpful. I'm hoping to tap that wisdom for assistance with a looming school decision.

    Briefly, DS7 (just turned 7) is in grade 2 at a highly regarded private school. He's always been ahead of the developmental curves and our first two years were excellent. Then we hit grade 1, or grade 1 hit us. After two weeks he asked me to talk to his teacher about how he could finish his work faster, which I did. She suggested ADHD without the H (I know, practicing w/o a licence!). To the pediatrician who said that's ridiculous, the only clinical issue is hypersensitivity. After two semesters of misery and much to/fro btwn the teacher and pediatrician, our child was describing himself as 'thinking too slowly' and saying he hated school. To the psychologist, who confirmed no 2E (although he has a few autism characteristics) and did testing.

    Test results: WISC-IV verbal comp 99.7 percentile; perceptual reasoning 94; working memory 97 & processing speed 47. GAI 97. WJ-III 130. All with the caveat from the tester that when he wasn't interested, he produced below ability. I gather that in some jurisdictions the 97 qualifies as gifted.

    Back to the school where, instead of happiness that he isn't ADHD, w/ or w/o letters, and appears to have a useful brain, they fret that he requires much one-on-one support to start and complete his work and isn't very interested in his classmates (his classmates aren't following Voyager's move into interstellar space or studying the hydrodynamics of tsunamis, but hey, that couldn't be a factor). The psychologist has intervened, but the school is making minimal efforts to accommodate his slow writing speed (they've put him in a remedial writing class) and none to enrich. My pleas that if he isn't challenged his disengagement will only get worse fall on deaf ears. DS7, while happier than grade 1, appears to be participating even less and really only goes to school because he has to.

    The looming decision: the school has a specialized program for LD students that's one-on-one. They'd like to put him there next year. He's not conventionally LD (the gap btwn PS & everything else could be called a written output disorder) and it only arises because he doesn't do his work w/o a teacher at his side prodding him. Part of me thinks my sensitive perfectionist who does so much better in very small groups would be happier there, but most of me thinks he would benefit more from learning how to learn even when the work is desperately boring. That part of me is also slightly cranky that the school is throwing in the towel without making any apparent efforts over 1 year and 3 months to engage my child.

    So...any thoughts/suggestions/advice on how to navigate this decision in a way that's best for my child would be gratefully received.

    Thanks.

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    FWIW, your ds sounds *very* much (and I do mean *VERY*!) like my ds at 7 years old (and through the first 2 years of elementary school. Even his teachers sound like the same set of teachers... and the WISC scatter is very very similar.

    So.... this is my take on it (my ds is now 13 and in 7th grade... and it's been a very long journey to get to this point. It's possible that none of this applies to your ds, but fwiw:

    Originally Posted by CoastalMom
    He's not conventionally LD (the gap btwn PS & everything else could be called a written output disorder) and it only arises because he doesn't do his work w/o a teacher at his side prodding him.

    Re the gap between PS & everything else "could be called a written output disorder. For my ds, it is a symptom of a very real written output disorder.. and what may seem like not much of a big deal in 2nd grade turned into a huge deal by the time he was in 4th grade. He is still, in 7th grade, years after we knew about that gap in PS and everything else, and after years of remediation, tutoring and accommodations, still struggling with a written output disorder. He's made a TON of progress, and he's a happy kid who's able to benefit from challenging academics at school - but he's still very much a student with a learning disorder who needs support with schoolwork at home and at school.

    I would have said (and did say) the exact same thing you've said about your child to describe my ds in 2nd grade: "he doesn't do his work w/o a teacher at his side prodding him." And he didn't. And when a teacher was at his side prodding him, the work he did do didn't match anything I knew he was capable of (it was clear from very early on that he is an EG/possibly PG child). So I was caught in this triangle of us (parents) constantly explaining away classroom behavior as gifted quirks/boredom/perfectionism/whatever, his teacher convinced he was either stupid, lazy, or severely ADHD, and my ds, who had no idea why he couldn't do what people were expecting him to do at school, was seeing other children complete their writing with no trouble, and eventually became so anxious over it all he was having severe panic attacks.

    No one was more suprised than me to hear a neuropsychologist explain that my ds had a disability - but he does. I wish he didn't, but he does.

    If I were back in your shoes today - I would consider the possibility that there is a writing challenge for your ds. There are things you can do to explore the possibility - I'll list them below. It's not the end of the world, but if he does, providing him only with extra enrichment and challenge isn't going to solve the problem, and chances are it might fall flat and backfire if he's going into a situation where he's expected to be able to write.

    This is what I'd suggest -

    * Have your ds take the TOWL (Test of Written Language) - this is a common test used to understand specific challenges with written language.

    * Consider having your ds evaluated by a Speech Language Pathologist. Chances are that you are thinking why do this? My ds' speech is a-ok... and yep, my ds' speech (verbal) is also a-ok - or so it seems, he's extremely verbal and can clearly speak at a way-ahead-of-age-level of comprehension... about things he knows about. The thing that was very subtle for our ds and passed our radar completely was he was very challenged with generating thought output in either speech or writing when he was faced with an abstract request. It showed up in writing first because there's no way to hide in the classroom... but after a few years when ds was a bit older and was starting to understand himself a bit better he started mentioning the same types of challenge with verbal expression. His initial SLP eval would never have qualified him for help at school, but it showed a large discrepancy in abilities similar to the WISC score, and the SLP who administered the test noted a significant increase in the time required to answer questions on that part of the test.

    * Even though your ds is in private school, you can request an IEP eligibility review through the public school and that would be one way to possibly get the TOWL or an SLP eval.

    * Consider having a private neuropsych evaluation - this type of evaluation includes ability/achievement testing + more. You didn't mention achievement testing, but if your ds has had either the WJ-III or WIAT achievement testing, it would be interesting to look for scatter in the scores vs the output format of individual subtests - does he score significantly lower on timed subtests? Or on subtests that require handwritten responses?

    * Google around for a list of dysgraphia symptoms and see if any of them fit your ds (what I'm getting at here isn't a challenge with knowing *what* to write but just with the physical act of handwriting, which could also make him a reluctant writer). Does your ds have an odd pencil grip? Does he rub his wrists or fingers or elbow after he's written for awhile? Does he seem to get physically tired from writing? Does he have uneven pencil pressure, break pencils, crumble up his papers while he writes? Does he have odd posture while he's writing, or hold his paper or head at an odd angle? Those can all be symptoms of dysgraphia, as well as letter reversals, uneven or erratic spacing of letters, difficulty with punctuation and spelling etc.

    Again, there are certainly kids here and elsewhere who have dips in processing speed and who don't have challenges with dysgraphia, writing, written expression, or school. But your ds is having difficulty producing written work at school without prodding, combined with his very large dip in processing speed - which leads me to suspect that it's at least worth looking into the possibility of a written expression LD.

    polarbear

    ps - forgot completely about the question in the title of your post - "extension or Special Ed".... jmo, gifted 2e kids need both - maybe not full-blown SPED qualification, but a child who has a challenge absolutely needs remediation and accommodation. I think most of the 2e parents I've known have found that you have to start with remediating the challenge in order for your child to then later be able to fully benefit from extension in their areas of strength. Absolutely provide your child with interesting, intellectually challenging experiences as much as you can starting early on, but when there's a time conflict between helping with the challenge or giving extra extension to build on areas of strength, sometimes in early elementary the extension has to take a back seat to getting remediation for the challenge. It's not as grim as that might seem - by really really focusing on remediating in elementary school, we gave our ds the chance to absolutely soar in his areas of strength now that he's past elementary school. One thing to remember is it's not just about the direct skills, but also about self-confidence and believing in your ability - and that's something that most 2e kids need the remediation in weak areas for every bit as much as the actual skills.


    Last edited by polarbear; 11/26/12 02:16 PM.
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    It sounds like that lower processing speed is producing some real issues at school. I'd want to know more about the specialized LD program that you mentioned. Will it nurture his strengths while working on his area of weakness? If it only focuses on weakness, you may find yourself worse off.

    Did the psychologist recommend any specific accommodations that the school is refusing to implement? Did the psychologist give you the subtest scores for processing speed? If one subtest is significantly lower, it may give clues about what is slowing him down and how to better give him extra support without having to go to the one-on-one LD program.

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    Polarbear, wonderful post.

    Originally Posted by CoastalMom
    The looming decision: the school has a specialized program for LD students that's one-on-one. They'd like to put him there next year. He's not conventionally LD (the gap btwn PS & everything else could be called a written output disorder) and it only arises because he doesn't do his work w/o a teacher at his side prodding him.

    I will just add that special education is a service, NOT a place. They should evaluate the educational needs of your particular child thoroughly, and then you and they should as a team determine the proper settings and services that will best suit the needs. It should not be an either-or decision; if it is, they're not doing their job.

    DeeDee

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    Thank you all - your responses are very helpful.

    Polarbear, our son had much anxiety in grade one about not being able to complete work to the extent the other children could and the work he did was so rudimentary compared to what we saw at home. Other kids have begun commenting on how slow he is to finish his work, which I'm sure isn't helping either his self esteem or his social life. Our psychologist has said the multiple SD's btwn his PS score and the others could be characterized as a written output disorder, but none of us has considered a speech issue. Like your son, he's extremely verbal and he often sounds more like an adult than a child. I'll try some abstract reasoning questions on him to see how he responds. Thanks for the tip, I wouldn't have considered that.

    We had the psych-ed done privately and do have the break downs. His overall WJ-III was 130 and his writing fluency was 106, while his writing samples score was 128. Story recall and understanding directions were the other low scores (100, 105 & 107). In the WISC-IV his scaled scores showed 8 for word reasoning, 8 for coding, 10 for picture completion, 11 for symbol search & 4 for cancellation. Everything else was 13-17.

    When he does write, his writing is lovely - very precise (too precise, he's a perfectionist and slows himself down erasing anything that's not exact) and his spelling is excellent. I suspect it's more about his hand not being able to keep up with his thoughts, but I'll read up on dysgraphia to be sure. I can handle any diagnosis and would rather have one and an action plan than this piece meal, some teachers get him some don't approach!

    Knute974, DeeDee & master of none, the specialized program is intended for LD's like dyslexia and costs considerably more than the standard tuition at the school. If I thought it were the answer I'd give up whatever I had to to pay for it in a heartbeat, but it really seems to put him into a box that doesn't fit him so that they have less work in the regular classroom. Which I am already paying for. In the program's defence, each child has a computer and the teachers work one on one with the students, so it is theoretically learner-centred. The kids join their grade for music & PE, but are separated for all academics.

    The remedial writing class I agreed to has him relearning the basic sight words and vowel sounds that he has known for eons. (he's a very strong reader). And he still writes less and more painfully slowly than the other students, even though he is way ahead of them with phonetics and spelling. I worry that that will make him feel even worse about his abilities than if he were writing just as slowly but with regular content.

    The psychologist recommended he dictate his work so that he can show what he really knows and start to feel successful in school, again. She said he should only be expected to write when writing is the point of the exercise. It is being done a bit, but really only for things like math tests. He's still expected to write a lot and is marked for knowledge on his written output. The psychologist also recommended that he use computers more, and that doesn't seem to be happening at all. DS has a fairly rigid personality and has apparently begun to respond by simply refusing to do some work. His report card just arrived and I'm quite sure it must be for someone else's child!!

    Thank you all, I'm somewhat encouraged and much more informed!

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    Last edited by momosam; 12/07/12 11:50 AM.
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    Originally Posted by momosam
    @polarbear, I don't want to hijack this thread, but I was looking for threads where you talk specifically about the work your DS has done with the SLP. Thinking this is a route we need to explore. THANKS!

    Mo

    Hi momosam! Just wanted to let you know I saw this - do you have some specific questions or want to know what our SLP has worked through with our ds?

    I'm on my way to a meeting this morning but will be happy to answer your questions re what we've done later this weekend - let me know what you're looking for smile

    polarbear


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