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    Joined: May 2007
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    I've been reading this list for months and enjoyed learning from all of you. I have one child finishing K who were identified as GT this year.

    So to those of you with more experience, how much does this school stuff matter? I know every situation is different, but we found it extremely frustrating dealing with the school this year and we're afraid to put ourselves permanently in a district dependent on them to create something meaningful for our kids.

    Thanks in advance. Still feeling a bit overwhelmed trying to get my head around this issue.



    Last edited by gratified3; 08/12/12 03:21 PM.
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    acs Offline
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    Each situation is so different, you just don't know. As I have said several times (you can read my other posts), we have had a great experience in a mediocre (based on test-scores, class size etc) public school with very limited GT options. We have hand-picked each teacher every year and have chosen flexible, energetic teachers who see each child as a snowflake (absolutely unique and should be taught that way). In fifth grade his teacher has him on pre-algebra B and is doing late HS/college reading assignments, while the other kids do 5th grade curriculum. She gives me no trouble if I "need" to take him out of school for family travel or fiddle contests or whatever--she doesn't make him make up work etc. He is very happy there, particpates in student council, sports, and has lots of friends from a variety of backgrounds and with a variety of abilities. The school has recently suggested skipping him up to 7th and DS flatly refused--I like my class and I really want to stay with them. He'll be taking 8th grade honors math next year and we are still working on the details of the other stuff, but I am very optimistic.

    I have a friend with a child in a large school district with a special gifted track. Those kids get assigned to the gifted classroom each year at their school. Initially I was very jealous of their situation. But there is just one classroom and just one GT teacher for each grade. My friend has been frustrated because sometimes that teacher isn't very good, but she has to accept that teacher or drop out of the GT program. They have the kids doing work a grade or two above level and do more exploration, but, honestly, I do not think that the kids have nearly the freedom and flexibility that we have experienced in my son's school. I suspect that if my son were in that program he would not be able to work as far ahead as is able to now.

    As you can see, there are a lot of variables that you don't have much control over. Teachers who are not great with gifted kids can be found anywhere, even in gifted programs. So a program that looks good on paper is still only as good as its teachers. I probably would not choose a school or teacher until I had had a chance to really visit it and meet the teachers.

    I find that I frequently think back to the advice my mother gave me when I asked her a parenting question. She said cheerfully, "Well, I've tried it several ways, and I have found that no matter what you do it is usually wrong." Somehow, this has really helped me let go of trying to get everything right. We just do the best we can with what we have and then when it's not wrong, we celebrate!

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    ACS writes
    "In fifth grade his teacher has him on pre-algebra B and is doing late HS/college reading assignments,"

    Could you please write more about those reading assignments?
    Ania

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    Hi Jill.

    In hindsight:
    If we had the option of moving just about anywhere when our kids were starting out, I would have shopped for the best location to move. At the time, I would have thought relocation for a school as some form of hyper-parenting.

    The most important aspect, IMO, is the attitude of the administrators and resulting school culture. The best situation may have very little to do with state mandates and district funding. I think that subject and/or grade acceleration is more desirable than a gifted enrichment pull-out especially for highly + gifted.

    Good luck.

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    In the back of this book, Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind by Deborah L. Ruf

    there is a little table that talks about the kinds of schools and how they interact with the kind of gifted kids you may have. It's worth looking at. Is homeschooling an option? Does either of the locations allow one of the parents to stay home - that's sort of the only fail safe method.

    I agree with Ania that "blue collar" schools can do a much better job being flexable, and have seen it happen many times. By contrast, schools with gifted programs and coordinators can be very territorial and feel that their way meets the needs of all gifted students, when really it may be that 2E and HG/PG student's needs just aren't being met. I was told by one such that my child couldn't possibly have a high enough IQ score to justify a grade skip, and that in his old community kids like him were a dime-a-dozen.

    But after all that, I can say that I consider a good fit school to be essential to the family life you are going to want. Gifted charter schools can be wonderful, and I've heard lots of wonderful stories of happy families. I would visit the charter schools, look at the kids, see what the teachers are like in the full day programs. It can really be wonderful if it works. My personal situation is a private school, which doesn't specialize in gifted, that has gone all out for my DS10. I wouldn't have thought that the little boost from being in a smaller class size and a single grade skip would have been enought to justify the cost, but it has. Ruf's work has really helped me see that sometimes a little of accomidation go a long way.

    I've been reading Keys to Parenting the Gifted Child by Sylvia B. Rimm this week. She argues that Underachievment comes from one or both parents empowering the child in child-teacher interactions, and allowing the child to "get off the hook" from difficult learning situations. So you could concieve of getting yourself to a school setting you have confidence in as a way of building a healthly parent-teacher alliance that allows your child to face the hard stuff. (BTW - I thought that underachievement comes from having to do endless single digit addition worksheets when on is ready to learn multiplication.)

    One more idea is that the very nature of your relationship with your children is going to matter quite a bit. If you can manage the "of course MY children are going to do their grade times 10 minutes of homework per night, no matter what the teacher does or doesn't assign" then your children are protected from some of the worst kinds of underachievement. I didn't have to foresight to pull this off. I think I would have had to establish myself as a more "Authoritarian" Figure way back in the vegtable-eating days. If I had it to do over, I would have tried to find a few more rules I could put my heart and soul into, and fought harder over them. As it was, I was working outside the home, and wanted "my time" to be snuggly and sweet. I was also trying desperatly not to "infect" my child with Giftedness by "teaching" him too much that he'd have to endure being "re-taught" in school. Notice that I took complete responsibility for the school choosing not to educate my child? Back then I thought that Giftedness was somehow "my fault" and that if I "behaved" my son wouldn't "catch it." I had totally bought the argument that social development was the key thing and that intellectual development would take care of itself, perhaps at College. ((eyes rolling))

    Well - I don't know if this answers your question, but I wish you well!
    Trinity


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    acs Offline
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    Originally Posted by Ania
    ACS writes
    "In fifth grade his teacher has him on pre-algebra B and is doing late HS/college reading assignments,"

    Could you please write more about those reading assignments?
    Ania

    He doesn't have a set advanced curriculum. His teacher uses a standard 5th grade curriculum for the rest of the class that has a set theme for each month (sports, heritage etc). She then assigns DS books on that topic for him to read and do projects on. I don't remember every one, but some of the books he has read were on astronomy, Ellis Island, and an anthology of essays by the founding fathers; all were written for an adult audience. I think these are books that came from her personal library that she thought he would enjoy.

    After he has read the book, he usually is assigned a project. He has done posters, reports, and Powerpoint presentations. After reading the book on Ellis Island, he researched his own family history and interviewed his grandmother about her grandparents. His projects are usually integrated into what the rest of the class is doing. So his posters are up on the bulletin board and he presents his reports to the class. He loves to work independently, so it has gone really well. There are some days when the teacher doesn't have anything for him to do and then he just reads a book, which he is always happy to do.

    I had "warned" this teacher last spring that she would have DS this year and I happen to know she was thinking about him (and shopping for books, games, and puzzles) all summer so she would be ready. I think I have mentioned it before, but I'll say it again, we really could not have hoped for better teachers than DS has had.

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    Dear Jill,

    My advice (for what it's worth) is that I wouldn't make a move for schools entirely--for me it wouldn't outweigh the other considerations, especially for elementary school (perhaps moreso around high school). Good teachers can be hard to find any place, but some of the "better" schools/districts are overcrowded (my sister lives in NC and they have large classes, allowing for little individualized attention). I live in a "middle of nowhere" poor community and have lucked out with great, loving teachers who are eager to address individual needs and small classroom sizes. I would never have moved here if schools were part of the decision process. I guess I figured I'd supplement whatever they couldn't provide, especially now that online learning is so accessible. The social (and maybe sports or extracurricular activities/clubs) considerations come more into play in high school, at which point maybe one can re-evaluate.

    I have another sister who pays tons for private school for elementary school for her kids and I am so amazed that the money wouldn't be better spent either for the high school years or college fund, especially when there are good charter school options. Oh well--I like it that my kids have had to deal with kids from many different backgrounds while they're young in hopes that they will be more accepting as grownups (if they're sheltered so young and then faced with different people, wouldn't that be harder to deal with?)

    Good luck in your difficult decision!
    Cym

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    Originally Posted by gratified3
    I'm not sure which is more pitiful - that I actually want to hold my kids back from their own natural curiosity or that one year of a school system has led me to this state. But being where I am fills me with dread for the future and that's why we're struggling so much with a decision about moving.

    Hi Jill,
    I know! And a friend of mine, with a Middle Schooler who takes upper level Math at the local University said yesterday: "They say 'don't you care that you are ruining his chances to have a normal freshman year at our presdigious university? Don't you want him to live in a dorm and have a normal experience?' to which she thinks - Hey! I didn't make him this way? Am I supposed to ignore or deny what he is?

    So - Even if your baby was doing Calculus righ now, you might still run into people who think that you are loony for wanting him to have a school experience that fits his readiness level.

    I find that very interesting.

    I'm also chuckling about your "only one year" of school experience. Remember that you, too, most likely went to a bricks and mortar school, and remember what it was like for you, and for other kids who were "at the edges" of things in certian ways. KWIM?

    Warm Welcomes,
    Trinity


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    Originally Posted by gratified3
    separate pull-out whole day programming, or gifted charters, etc. I can work anywhere and likely find a better job than the one offer I have, but my husband would not be likely to find another great job somewhere else and might have to carve out something else.

    Jill,
    It's good that you spoke to the district. If all kids are gifted, then you are probably correct in your assumption that it's a roadblock of some kind. I remember when I lived in Pittsburgh, there was a general store, with a motto painted on the wall in giant letters,

    "If we don't have it, you don't need it!"

    It was very cute and nostalgic. For a store. In the middle of 100 other stores. Not in a school system!

    Did you get a chance to visit the seperate pull out whole day progaming school? I've just been reading "The joys and challenges of raising a gifted child" by Susan Golant, published in 1991 which is a real "Mom's eye view" of what it was like, and she has some lovely discriptions of the pluses and minuses of full day programs.

    How does your husband feel about passing up this job opportunity? What about the homeschooling option?
    Best Wishes,
    Trinity


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    Originally Posted by gratified3
    Hey Trinity. All these options are pretty far apart geographically, so I'm going to focus on job interviews in the next few months and then hopefully we'll be able to concentrate on a few school options. We keep discussing homeschooling as I can see that may be our best option at some point. But we both have careers and it would be quite difficult to manage.

    Sorry I dissapeared there, I had a lovely vacation, but missed all of this! OK, If you figure that your kids can learn 6 ours worth of school in about 45 minutes of adult attention, do you think that you can stagger your scheduals or hire a loving caretaker to do daycare, then drive to all the aftershool activities. I do believe that in the long run, you children's "ability to learn" would be stronger let to "play all day" than it would in a class room targeted for MG kids (1 in 50) , if they are PG (1 in 1,000) By analogy, if for some reason the school said that your normal 5th grader could only attend 2nd grade or stay home and play, which would you pick?

    ((And yes, when I say 'stay home and play', you would have to lock up your TV/video games/internet access until the weekends, or for all time - hey maybe that is the family compromise - you move for DH's job if he agrees to go media free!))

    Originally Posted by gratified3
    My husband doesn't want to pass on the job opportunity. I feel like no one location works for all of us. I can find a great job and great schools for our kids, but then he's stuck. We could go with great job for him, ok for me, but lousy school choices and I worry that I'd resent that if school options were a repeat of this year.

    What would help us most is trying to understand where our kids are in relation to the standard curriculum. It seems to me that how radically we alter their education depends on how radically different they are from their age mates, but how do we assess that? We thought testing would help, but it didn't. There are ceiling issues on current IQ tests that prevent any real understanding of where a kid is. I keep thinking that I would know how to deal with this if I knew where we are, but there's no good way to assess that. If one kid was really 1/100,000, then maybe we really ought to move somewhere for school options for him. But if he's really 1/1000, then maybe we can get by with public schools.


    I'll check out the book you mentioned. I think I'm idealizing the all day separate programs since they seem to address pacing, peers, and age issues while avoiding whole grade acceleration. I need some perspective on them so I stop thinking that would solve all our problems.
    Jill

    Stopping thinking that a single move will solve all your problems is a wonderful idea. Difficult but wonderful. Acceleration won't do it. Homeschooling won't do it. Special school are few and far between for the 1 in 1000 type kids.

    BTW, you are totally skewed in your hope that a 1 in 1000 kid will be likely to be well served in a typical public school. A 1 in 50 type kid is likely to suffer emotionally, socially and certianly will be forced to learn to underachieve. Davidson Young Scholar program starts up at that range, I think because of the IQ compression problems. If you haven't applied yet, do so right away. There is no such thing as a typical 1/1000 kid! The more rare one gets the wider the variety. It's been interesting to watch the Davidson Academy in Reno, which started last year. They are committed to serving the needs of the 1/1000 kid and beyond. I don't think that there has been a school for this group before.

    Now, a great school will move heaven and earth to hand pick the teachers and scramble the scheduals so that your kids can float around and take classes in different grades as needed, and you can find these great schools in every segment of society, but they are rare. It's even rare to find a group of school professionals who can notice the difference between a 1/50 kid and a 1/1000 kid. I know it seems weird, but run the numbers...it makes sense, a school with and average distribution of kids, and 100 kids per grade level will see one first grader in the 99.9% every ten years.

    Take a look at these descriptions of preschool behaviors to get an idea of what I mean. I think you just need to know that there are, normal, but unusual kids out there like yours.

    http://www.educationaloptions.com/levels_giftedness.htm

    http://www.educationaloptions.com/raising_gifted_children.htm

    http://www.educationaloptions.com/pg_child.htm

    The best way to help you understand where you children are compared to the standard curriculum is to spend some seat time in the local school where their agemates would be. Since it's summer, you can look on the school's website and see what their "scope and sequence" is. Or see if you can drop by and look at their textbooks?

    I wish you luck with your move. If you can take some time off to settle in and make your new home a home, I encourage you to do that. Work is so reinforcing, so orderly, so full of chances to be praised, so QuieT! Eitherway, Flylady.org is terrific for help in organizing moves. Every change has it's pluses and minuses. Looking for the silver lining is possible, but requires great flexibility.

    Finally, I would strongly suggest you read Losing our Minds by Deb Ruf. It helped me understand the continum of giftedness. Can you imagine if all people with intellectual handicaps were treated the same? It would be cruel! But do you really want a well behaved underachiever? What about their future? What about their faith and trust in adults? I'm not saying that they have to be optimally engaged every second, but they do have to see you try.

    Love and More Love,
    Trinity


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