Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Ability vs achievement scores

Does anyone know how IQ tests and achievement scores compare? My son's WJ-III achievement scores show 99th% or better on 10 subtests (>99.9 on 4). But when he was tested with the SBV his nonverbal was 98th% and verbal was 84th, giving him a full scale at 95%. The examiner did then use "select subtests" of the WPPSI for verbal skills as she didn't think the SBV captured his verbal skills. She didn't give numbers but said that he scored from above average to very superior on these subtests.
I'm wondering whether I should apply for YS - we could really use the help and support, but I wonder if he is at that profoundly gifted level or not. His initial achievement scores and some behaviors make me think so, but then the IQ scores don't reflect it. Is that possible? Do you think I should go ahead and apply?

Any chance the IQ scores aren't accurate? Example - he was sick that day or fed up because the achievement tests came first and he was tired?

Honestly, I would apply - whether you get in or not, the act of filling out the app was very useful for my DH and me.

Mary

How does he do on above level tests, such as the talent searches? They are usuallly pretty cheap, and intended to give this kind of info.
Best Wishes,
Trinity

I think he did well on the day of testing. No real concerns. He was 5 years 2 months for the IQ testing and had never had school at all, so the examiner felt that the SBV got too difficult too quickly for him. That's why she used the WPPSI subtests.
He actually did do an above level test at the same time as the SBV. They used an end of first grade level test (CTP from ERB) for "high achieving first graders" and he scored in the 7th% for listening comprehension and 9th% for math skills. The examiner emphasized how the test used was two years ahead of his grade level. He had not yet entered kindergarten - we had him tested to advocate for early first grade entry - which we got. But she had to discontinue the reading comprehension test as he couldn't complete the first items.
I was thinking about just applying - but guess I am worried about him not being appropriate. Nothing lost in trying though, huh?!

Debbie, how long did all this testing take? Was it all done on the same day? I think that can make a difference in results, too, if the testing is extensive and the child gets tired.

But I have the exact same concerns as you. My daughter, not quite 6 yrs old now, scored in the 99.9th percentile on the Woodc*ck-Johnson Reading Mastery test when she was 5 yrs. 4 mos. old. We are going to apply to the YS program with these scores plus portfolio, but I worry that when it comes to the IQ testing she will fall short of the 99.9th percentile and it will be a lot of effort for nothing.

When I read through Ruf's "levels of giftedness," DD definitely fits the Level 3 characteristics. She also fits some Level 4 characteristics but not overwhelmingly, like with the Level 3, so it's hard to assess. I guess eventually we will have to do the IQ testing and find out.

Did your examiner feel that the results were accurate for your son?

Debbie,
I encourage you to apply to YSP. They may so no,or not for now. You've got nothing to loose. I also encourage you to post to us here for any support you need either way. Hoagiesgifted.org is a wonderful resource also.
For what it's worth, Galaxy Girl, my son did get accepted to YSP, and I would place him at a Ruf Level 3. That is very gifted, indeed.
Best Wishes,
Trinity

Trinity, thanks for the info about your son and Ruf's Level 3--that is encouraging! How long has your son been in the YSP?

When DS was tested they did the SBV on the first day, then we went back for the out-of-level on the next day. I do think that the testing was done well and we are happy with the report and how the pshychologist took all things into consideration. She specifically states that looking just at his FSIQ score does not accurately represent his abilities. She also told us that we should retest when he is 7-8 years old as the scores tend to equalize (NV and V scores) and she thinks his IQ scores will come up across the board.
When I look at Ruf's Levels, he seems to have all the characteristics of Level 2, some of 3 and even a few in 4. I don't see the intensity in his processing that I think seems to be characteristic, yet his emotions and sensitivities can be right up there! And he just learns so spontaneously.
I have felt like you, Galaxy Girl, that I don't really want to do all the work associated with the application if he isn't even qualified. but I guess there's only one way to find out. I have started the application and was actually surprised by how much I could put down - hadn't really looked at all the stuff from the baby book and put it together for the "big picture." And I did call and talk to a family consultant at DI who encouraged me to apply as well. She said they would consider all aspects of the child even though the test scores are important.

I like the idea of including a portfolio of his work, maybe even a short video of him, even though we have his test scores. Thanks for the encouragement and input.

One thing that has me hesitate lately is DS seeming to have "slowed down" in his learning. He has a difficult time with being wrong and he is now spending a lot of time doing easy stuff. He's in first grade (5y 7 m, we got early entry based on the tests), but the work here at the beginning of the year is STILL too easy. He mastered all this at least a year ago. And I just don't know how to keep him "turned on to learning." Hence my desire to apply to YS and get some help from experts. We are also starting to see some anxiety and perhaps peer relation issues at school. I don't want to create problems, but am concerned about how things might develop. I've always felt that proactive is better than reactive!

Thanks again for the advice and support. Sorry this is long - glad to have someone to "listen!"

Debbie,
My experience is that it take quite a lot for a kid to sit in school all day long "not learning" and trying to be good. Keep working on the application, but I wouldn't wait for YSP on it's white horse, but would assume that you can do a lot of advocacy for him yourself. Have you considered another grade-skip? Single subject accelteration? Afterschooling? Have you read anything by Sylvia Rimm on Perfectionism (not wanting to be wrong) or Wienbrenner on "Teaching gifted kids in the regular classroom?" That book talks extensivly about curriculum compacting, which you can bring to the school and advocate for. Basically if you know that he mastered all this material one year ago, then you (should) know that you MUST do something to change the situation.

Keep posting to this forum, asking question and writing about what you are feeling. I, too, live with the idea that I "created" this problem to give myself something to do. Then just last week an IRL girlfriend, who isn't at all involved with Gifted, sat me down and wanted to know if I've noticed that my kid is a Genius or something, and shouldn't I be doing something to get him an appropriate education? LOLOLOLOL

But it was very useful and moving experience for me. It energised me to ask our new private school for a grade-skip, they are interviewing DS10 now. I never even mentioned YSP to this particular school - OTOH the support I've gotten from YSP and YSP parents over the last 1.5 years has gotten it "into me." Let's get "it" into you, Debbie!


What's your relationship like with the teacher? A good teaher can make things wonderful for a child. He or She is the place to start. I'd read the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual to help understand all those tests, and Roger's Re-forming gifted education for ideas and charts.

Smiles -
Trinity

I would like to pass on this path that I found on Hoagies Gifted Ed Page. It contains a graph that apparently shows a correlation between the scores that gifted kids received on previous I.Q. tests and the scores they received on the new tests. Of particular interest is that the Stanford-Binet V scores are significantly lower than the earlier tests as well as the new WISCIV.

My DS10 who I would put at level 4 on the Ruf scale had scored exactly the spread that is cited on this graph between his SB4 at 6years and the SB5 at 10years. The examiner stated this has been the norm in his experience with the SB5.

Debbie,

This may explain why your son scored lower than expected-mine certainly did. I�m sure the Davidson team is already aware of this issue, but you may consider the WISC instead if you are looking for a higher score. The examiner warned us of the lower scores in advance, but I opted for it anyway because the SB has more math reasoning which I wanted him tested for.
v/r
Diana

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm