Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy I need a book on gifted perfectionists!

I am at my wits end w/ DS almost 8. This is his 2nd year HSing. His perfectionistic tendencies are driving me insane...along with his clothes chewing, clothes sucking. What books would you recommend for learning more about dealing with perfectionism?

Thanks,
Dazey

Is clothes chewing/sucking a sign of perfectionism? My ds6 does this and it drives us crazy. Sorry I'm not too much help...

Both of mine do the clothes chewing thing, and it drives me crazy. I don't think it has anything to do with perfectionism - DD is anything but a perfectionist. Kids just do annoying things

Dazy -
I'd look into OverExcitabilities. My son would go through collar chewing phases - I tried to give him acceptable substitutes - and got a few for myself as well. Is chewing gum an option?

For my son it always helped to pull back on the scary TV shows.

Of course, I'll recommend 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook.' by Lisa Bravo and Howard Glasser. Really great for those Intense kids learning to handle their strong feelings in health ways.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

We are attempting to hack our way through the jungle undergrowth of perfectionism with our DD (11, nearly 12);

while Living with Intensity and Misdiagnosis/Dual Diagnosis are both really really good tools, and I recommend both...

I also encourage anyone dealing with perfectionism to do some additional digging about when to get professional help.

With the inwardly-directed, performance avoidant variety (self-handicapping, underachievement, procrastination are red flags here), getting help may be essential, since most of the time that particular constellation of factors doesn't respond well to anything but CBT in the hands of a pro.

Most of the leverage that we as parents have for managing the problem are double-edged swords that also have the potential to make the problem WORSE instead of better.

{{hugs}}

(You might look at the last few pages of my thread "Deterioration" re: my daughter for more references and tools. Lots of people had wonderful advice. )

Hoagies has a nice list: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/perfectionism.htm

I would recommend this one: Freeing Our Families From Perfectionism

Thanks for the recommendations! I will definitely look into them. I don't know if clothes chewing/sucking is related to perfectionism, it's just that both things are driving me crazy.

Here is an example. He is doing a dictation. Granted, it is a difficult one with lots of dialogue. I show it to him beforehand, we discuss it, etc. I give the dictation. This is from Bravewriter. He keeps asking if there is a quotation or if the em dash is inside or outside the quotations etc. I answer his questions. At one point, all the kids are talking at once and DS asks a question and I just tell him to use his best judgement and we'll correct at the end. Then the wailing, high-pitched scream, tears starts. Then he starts blabbering about how he hates to get things wrong and why can't I just tell him so that he doesn't get it wrong. I try to calmly explain to him that part of learning is getting things wrong. Everyone gets something wrong everyday. This happens every single day - especially about math. He will completely shut down if he gets a problem wrong. At times he is so upset I have to send him to his room to calm down. For the first time he has hit something that he didn't get instantly....the standard algorithm for multi-digit multiplication and I think this has been the catalyst for all this behavior getting worse. It's always been there but has been much worse the past few months. Once he calms down, he gets the answer so the material is not too far above him.

Dazey

I think I will try chewing gum and I hope to find one of those stress relieving balls. I think he would like that and needs something to do w/ his hands.

My oldest went through something similar when I brought him home after 2nd grade. It took about 7 months until we hit material that was new and he didn't grasp instantaneously. He shut down for about 3months. After never getting anything wrong in school for K-2, not knowing something really hit him in the ol' self-esteem department. He came through it just fine and is now OK w/ getting things wrong, and having to put forth a bit of effort.

I think my middle son is going through something similar but he's doing it quite LOUDLY ie the whining, shreaking, tears, crying....I can. not. deal. with that. Can we say excitabilities anyone? I guess the apples don't fall to far from the tree. With a 5th grader and 4yr old, I guess I have just less patience to deal with it.

....Dazey (going look in the closet to find more patience).

Dazy,
I want to start with saying that I get all teary reading your description, because it's clear to me that you are a very dedicated mom, in a situation that is very painful. I've been there myself, and it takes a truckload of nobility of spirit to go through what you are willing to go through. Reversing Underachievement is difficult, painful and takes rather a long time. It's pretty much only you who can stick in there with your son in this junction, but I am confident that you will eventually get to your goal, and I'm so proud of you for getting yourself into this mess. What you are doing for your son is a very big deal, that just plain isn't asked of most parents. Your love for your son is clearly evident. You will win this one, it will just take time.

Here are some thought I have about making the journey easier, but remember that I am not at your house, and living through it first hand. These ideas are not meant to criticize your parenting in any way - only to offer you some 'outside the box' ideas, because I'm getting the picture that life inside the current box isn't fun right now. I did have access to these ideas, and DS14 and I still got through this period, just exposure to the 'non-instant' learning part of the readiness level will do the job eventually. I'm just hoping that these ideas will get you through more quickly and less isolated than I went through.

You can change your role in this dance, Dazey. You can have a rule against 'multiple questions.' When he asks the same question for the 2nd time, you can require that he make a flashcard to refer to, or you can make him one to add to his rule collection. I've seen little notebooks made of 3 x 5 cards all spiral bound together. You could have rule books for different topics, grammar, math, etc. You could insist that he write it down the first time.

Then when he heads to 'over and over land' do not allow him to 'dance' with you about it. Point to the note card pile, and when he finds the correct one, express genuine excitement: "You handled your strong feelings well. You wanted to know the answer, and you found it!" That way you are feeding him attention (our strongest reinforcer) and relationship when he is problem-solving instead of hissy fit-ing. (More along these lines in the Transforming Workbook.) If your son melts down all the way, that is just to be expected since he is just starting to overcome his bad habits of deeply believing that work should be effortless. For example:This is a perfect example of the messy, noisy process of reversing underachievement. He needs to do this for a while, and then things will improve. You are absolutely correct in how you judge the level. The only way I got through this was to repeat over and over: 'Would I rather he go through this now, or when he is off by himself in College like it happened for me?'

So the way I see the world, there are two kinds of tantrums. Wailing, high-pitched scream and tears may be just the natural stress relievers of being in a very painful situation. Your son has learned for whatever reason that who he IS is the guy who learns everything easily, and it's going to take some tears before he gets things sorted out. Or, the screams and wailing can be a way that when he is feeling very very vulnerable, that he makes sure to get your attention, even if it's the calm explanation. He knows that you hate it underneath, he can feel your pulse rise. He doesn't need you to explain for the 57th time that 'everyone makes mistakes.' Your options here and to send him to his room earlier in the process, or just tell him to put his head down for a moment to gather his reserves, or walk out of the room for 1 minutes. You aren't 'punishing him' for tantruming, but you don't have to reinforce him either, see? Pretty much words or any emotions from you are going to add fuel to the fire. Expecting him to 'take a minute' shows that you have very high expectations indeed.

Would I try to communicate the message that everyone makes mistakes? Sure, anytime I saw him make a mistake and handle it well, I'd make a great big happy fuss over it. I'd do the same whenever I made a mistake and handle it well, too. Gifties usually believe that if we give the right bit of information at the critical moment that other will change their behavior - others including teachers, partners and offspring. This is very rare. People change their behavior when their heart tells them too, or when their environment changes in such a way that the wanted behavior brings rich and interesting rewards, but the unwanted behavior results in boring time away from the fun.

It's hard to believe that a big dramatic scene can be a positive reinforcer, after all, it is so unpleasant. And yet, how different, physiologically, is fear from excitement?

Hope that helps,

Grinity

LOL Grinity, I would never take anything you say as criticism. I'm all ears! It's been a tough year HSing all 3. Just for some back story as I've not been here for a bit....we put our house on the market Feb-March 2010 which meant lots of cleaning, moving things into storage, painting, keeping the house spic and span while HSing for showings. All this done by me as DH works 12-13hrs/day. And then near daily drives to look at potential houses and not finding anything....oh the stress. Found the not-so-perfect house (really wanted that dedicated HS room) on the perfect property. Got a buyer for our house and into contract on the new. Spent the summer dealing w/ new house construction and contractors. New house not ready, need to close on the old house, pack the old house all by myself, move everything into garage of new house while awaiting inspection, live in a hotel for 1.5weeks....move from garage into the new house, school started 2 weeks later. And then weekends filled w/ hours and hours of yardwork and now two boys on travel soccer. I have. not. stopped since last February.

On a brighter note, I started exercising daily in November (I'm a P90X grad!) and I cured my insomnia which has plagued me for years. So, believe it or not, I now have more patience than before. At least when DS10 went through this, he did it quietly.

Ironically, you may recall this is the same son who developed a near phobia about school due to the noise level in the cafeteria in Kindergarten. He is the loudest one in the family. He's my happy, bubbly, always singing and dancing and moving and shrieking around the house, never ever sitting still unless he's reading child. The whole gist of getting a new house was to give me some space to have quiet for me while giving them the space to be loud boys. We are currently finishing the basement so that will be their refuge to rough house and shriek to their hearts content. They can't do it upstairs right now b/c it sounds like a herd of buffalo coming down on my head. So we'll get there......slowly.

Fortunately, there is nothing ahead of him in math for the rest of the year that is difficult or daunting so he'll be able to cruise into the end of the year and we can play fun math games over the summer to work on confidence and joy.

I'll never forget the look on DS10s face when he got something wrong in math for the first time when we were HSing - we had finally hit new information. His face fell, I saw the tears well up in his eyes. People just don't understand how dangerous it is for some kids not to be challenged. I was/am thankful to be able to deal with this now when there are no repercussions as opposed to high school or college.

Ironically, I've had insomnia for two days, hence my long windedness today.

Dazey (looking forward to a break in 1.5weeks when the inlaws are here)

yes, I should remember to remark when he does handle making a mistake well. He makes mistakes in soccer but that doesn't bother him. OH believe me, I model making mistakes all the time and point them out to the boys....even when I don't want to (make a mistake that is). My mental math skills are lacking.

((Jaw dropping on floor - makes an interesting noise!))
Wow - good for you on all that! I'm amazed you have on unfried neuron left. I hope that basement gets finished quickly!

I have heard that some noise-sensitive kids are very noisy ((I think I'm one of those)) I'm wondering if he needs his own ipod on in the background so he can get the audio stim he needs without having to produce it all himself. Of course he'll probably sing along, so pick something you like - or classical without words?

But I don't understand howcome Math is going to be boring all the rest of the year? Can you graduate him early? Doesn't homeschooling mean that you can chose the curriculum yourself?

((perplexed brow wrinkle))
Grinity

I do think I need to try and nip it in the bud earlier. I do think part of the shriek is just his way of relieving stress. He does it all. the. time. for. many. different. occasions.

I should add, it's also not just when he gets it wrong....if he just looks at the page and thinks it's "hard" he can start wailing. Once he calms down enough to listen, he flies through it with no issues. It's this mental hurdle to get over first.

I use Rightstart Math. Typically, how RS works is that it gives you something meaty.....then allows time for the brain to process by totally switching gears to geometry. For example, yesterday was patterns in numbers. He'll still have 4-5 multi-digit multiplication problems to do each day for a few days but the main topic will be something different. It actually moves into division which the way RS teaches up to this point, is pretty effortless. We've already done those lessons however out of order so next it'll be data analysis, polygons, congruency, scaling and fractions - none of which will send him over the edge and will be a welcome relief, I think, from multiplication. So it's not that it'll be boring, it'll just be different.

Dazey (just as confuzed as ever)

Ok - I get it now. That does sound interesting, but less threatening.
Great to hear from you Dazey! Cheers for you!
Grinity

WEll, today was MUCH better. I was calm and all smiles. I gave him lots of physical contact which he requires. SO much so at times I have to ask him for my space. When he saw the multiplication problems he immediately began to engage in his dance. I said, "Count to 10 and take a deep breathe." we're going to do it together. He did 4 problems correctly and missed the last one b/c he said 6x6=12. We had lots of noise and being silly but it was a much nicer time.

Yippee!