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    #9707 - 02/26/08 11:20 AM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: Dottie]
    bianc850a Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/02/07
    Posts: 312
    Loc: California
    Kriston,

    In a way, I think PG verbal kids have it even harder than children that are PG in math.

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    #9709 - 02/26/08 11:23 AM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: bianc850a]
    bianc850a Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/02/07
    Posts: 312
    Loc: California
    Questions,

    Have you tried to have his school substitute their math with the CTY/EPGY math? I believe it is possible. Then maybe he can use that hour to do extra projects?

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    #9710 - 02/26/08 11:24 AM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: Kriston]
    kcab Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/02/07
    Posts: 1603
    Loc: Sparta, apparently
    Thinking about this - one direction I was going was to think of math as a tool, so that would mean that at each grade level the school intends to teach the student how to use some subset of math tools.

    If not accelerated, then that means the child gets to use the same set of tools as standard at that grade level.

    If so, then it seems to me the only way to deal effectively would be to let the child use the tool (or do something else altogether), instead of continuing to practice with it while classmates reach some level of mastery. Maybe the Challenge Math and AoPS programs help with this (they look interesting anyway!), or maybe it means doing science experiments. Seems like it would have to be different, not just differentiated.

    I don't know if it's possible, I think it would be difficult.

    Reading seems like an easier area to manage. I guess one problem is that teachers need to assign and provide feedback on work at the level that challenges the student. But, if they were able to do that it doesn't seem like it would be so difficult to ask for more from a student in the language arts areas.

    just jumping in half-baked...
    _________________________
    kcab

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    #9711 - 02/26/08 11:30 AM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: bianc850a]
    questions Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/24/07
    Posts: 864
    Thanks, Bianca - I went to edit the last post and deleted it by accident. That is what I'm going to try. They won't do it on their own, but because he has an IEP, I might be able to get him distance learning computer time to deal with his in class frustration (DS is very unhappy with the distraction and daily discipline and lectures directed to a few disruptive children in his class. His teachers told us he is distracted by what's going on in the classroom and he complains bitterly about the same thing, saying he can't hear himself think. We're exploring the distance learning as an accommodation so that he has some "quiet time" where he won't notice as much what's going on around him and therefore, will have a respite from his discomfort in the classroom.)


    Edited by questions (02/26/08 11:32 AM)
    Edit Reason: fix typo

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    #9715 - 02/26/08 11:53 AM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: bianc850a]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    Originally Posted By: bianc850a
    Kriston,

    In a way, I think PG verbal kids have it even harder than children that are PG in math.


    Interesting. Why do you think that?

    I think the schools tend to do more for HG+ mathy kids, tend to be more willing to grade-skip and/or subject accelerate them, etc. But if we're talking about keeping the child in the age-group instead of grade skipping or subject accelerating, then I think the PG verbal kids probably "starve" less than the PG math kids. It's easier to read a book alone after school than it is to teach yourself math alone after school.

    Heck, I was a GT verbal kid, and I remember being bored in class and reading the teacher's guide that was on her desk before she shooed me away. She gave me harder work after that, as you can imagine...But there was something at my reading level in the room. There wasn't anything for my mathy GT friend to do but be bored!
    _________________________
    Kriston
    Mom to DS13 and DS10

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    #9717 - 02/26/08 12:02 PM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: Kriston]
    Texas Summer Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/01/06
    Posts: 216
    Loc: Texas
    Kriston,
    My intention was not to imply that we should hold kids back. That is why we are using ALEKS. I am just suggesting spending more time on problem solving rather than rushing into algebra (although many algebraic concepts are taught prior to formally teaching algebra).

    There are two components to mathematics. The first is learning the language of math, things like arithmetic and the mechanics of higher level math. I call these things "tools." The second is problem solving. I don't think I truly understood problem solving until I got to college and began working on a degree in engineering.

    Historically in America our math curriculum has focused on learning the "tools" of math. There was not enough focus on the application of the tools and understanding the system behind the operations. For example a lot of emphasis is put on having kids learn their math facts while less is put on having them understand the foundations of the operations. Many students know that 3x4 = 12 but do not understand that concept of multiplication. As a result we have fallen behind other countries like China.

    Good applications of problem solving involve having a student decide what tools to use. Often times there are several different tools that can be used to solve a problem. For instance when my dd was in 1st grade she often used multiplication to solve the problems that her classmates solved using addition. Both solutions were correct, my dd just had more tools available from which to choose.

    Also many hands-on activities used in the elementary school can be applied at a higher level. I observed my dd's math class last week. The class was working on basic fraction concepts (which my dd had already mastered). My dd decided to use her manipulatives to work on improper fractions and mixed numbers.

    I highly recommend getting one of Ed Zaccaro's books. He really helped me see the value in higher level problem solving for elementary students. Our district uses his materials for 3rd-5th grade advanced math students.

    I am just beginning my research into the math competitions. I am working with my dd's GT specialist on starting an afterschool math club next year. I think we are going to use Math Olympiad but I still need to do some research.

    I also like to see an interdisciplinary approach applied to teaching math. Showing math in the context of the world. If your child likes science there is so much math application available. I teach a Zome geometry class at our local PG co-op. I try to bring science, engineering, history, art, etc. into the lessons.

    Summer


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    #9718 - 02/26/08 12:06 PM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: Kriston]
    bianc850a Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/02/07
    Posts: 312
    Loc: California
    I think that HG verbal kids probably do ok. As you said, there is always something at their level to read in the classroom, library, or home. However, a PG gifted verbal kid who is no longer satisfied with appropriate level reading material but that perhaps would like to create some of his/her own (writing a book, poem etc. may have a hard time getting a teacher to teach him/her the tools they need to do so. I just think there is a clearer path for math than there is for literature.


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    #9720 - 02/26/08 12:10 PM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: Dottie]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    Originally Posted By: Dottie
    This used to get good reviews, though it's been years since I've looked at their stuff....

    http://web.mac.com/jdotyleo/iWeb/Jon%20Doty/Sunshine%20Math%20(K-8).html

    Surely there's a lot of overlap between "enrichment" and "acceleration" in those early years.


    Hmmm. This looks a lot like the regular Singapore Workbooks, not even the hard stuff. The 3rd grade has word problems, patterns...some combo problems that would be a bit more thought-provoking, but I guess I don't think that asking the child to set up the problem (instead of saying "here's the problem: 10+25= ?) really constitutes deeper.

    Kangaroo Math is harder, I think. But I'm still not sure I think even that's really deeper. Does harder = deeper? Or is there more to it than that?
    _________________________
    Kriston
    Mom to DS13 and DS10

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    #9721 - 02/26/08 12:10 PM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: questions]
    Texas Summer Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/01/06
    Posts: 216
    Loc: Texas
    Originally Posted By: questions
    Is Aleks more in depth at grade level than EPGY or CTY?


    ALEKS is much less expensive than EPGY or CTY. I have heard good things about EPGY and CTY but have not ever seriously considered them because of the price. ALEKS teaches what I call the tools of math. It allows a students to go at his/her own pace. They offer a free trial if you want to give it a try. The Ed Zacarro books offer the problem solving depth. I think the best bang for your buck is ALEKS in conjunction with an appropriate Ed Zacarro workbook.

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    #9723 - 02/26/08 12:21 PM Re: EG/PG and not accelerated? [Re: Texas Summer]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    Originally Posted By: Texas Summer
    Kriston,
    My intention was not to imply that we should hold kids back. That is why we are using ALEKS. I am just suggesting spending more time on problem solving rather than rushing into algebra (although many algebraic concepts are taught prior to formally teaching algebra).


    Oh, of course! I didn't mean to insinuate that you want to hold the kids back! I think this is a common debate in GT ed, and I know it's one I'm having with myself. I don't think either of us is talking about holding them back. It's a philopsophical debate about approach, that's all. smile

    Originally Posted By: Texas Summer
    There are two components to mathematics. The first is learning the language of math, things like arithmetic and the mechanics of higher level math. I call these things "tools." The second is problem solving. I don't think I truly understood problem solving until I got to college and began working on a degree in engineering.

    Historically in America our math curriculum has focused on learning the "tools" of math. There was not enough focus on the application of the tools and understanding the system behind the operations. For example a lot of emphasis is put on having kids learn their math facts while less is put on having them understand the foundations of the operations. Many students know that 3x4 = 12 but do not understand that concept of multiplication. As a result we have fallen behind other countries like China.


    Hmmm. Maybe this is the root of my problem: I think my DS6 has a pretty good grasp of the problem solving skills even though he doesn't yet have all the "tools." If he's backwards from a typical American schoolchild, then my perception of this discussion may be skewed. This is helpful...

    Originally Posted By: Texas Summer
    I highly recommend getting one of Ed Zaccaro's books. He really helped me see the value in higher level problem solving for elementary students. Our district uses his materials for 3rd-5th grade advanced math students.


    We've mostly been pretty happy with Singapore Math and "Murderous Maths," a new addition to our curriculum from British Scholastic books. Since problem-solving is DS6's strength, I'm not sure we need more of this. But I'll certainly look at it. It never hurts to look. laugh

    Thanks for your response. It helped me.
    _________________________
    Kriston
    Mom to DS13 and DS10

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