Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Loss of self esteem in EG girl almost 10

I am very concerned about my DD who was confident, self assured and described as a leader in her class till this year. Now she says there is nothing good about her, she has no confidence. In her abilities academically or socially. She is on a cluster group in her class, but the others are MG, or simply high achievers.

She has also started to develop physically too, ahead of most of the other girls.

I am beginning to think a grade skip may help, but what if it lowers her self esteem further?

Any btdt?


Thanks

Steph

Is she trying to do her self-acculization? In other words is she trying to refine herself to gain her own self respect, a higher level (gifted issue) need. Or is she trying to gain respect of others, a necessary for survival base need. (sometimes tough for gifted ) They're both important, but it helps to know which it is.

Skim this for details:
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html

Because if it's #1 you can talk to her about friendship skills, make a list of things you feel happy after you've done them that day. Find at least one kid who likes to do each thing on the list. That's how you make friends.

If it's #2 you have to learn reflective listening/questioning skills to help her refine the things she likes about life because she's trying to figure out what she wants to be.

So says me, the lady behind the keyboard who's baby's aren't even that old yet.
(that means I'm just guessing)

MON makes an excellent point.
What about the work being given to the cluster group...if it doesn't. Give her a chance to feel afraid and then overcome that feel that she can't do the work it is hard to develop self confidence. See the chapter in Battle Cry of the Tiger Mother called Cadenza and mentally subtract the yelling.

Would a grade skip fit the bill? It sure might help. What grade is she in and what grade do kids go to a new building in your particular system. Is there a cluster group in the next grade up and if so what are those kids and their curriculum like?

How are do you defining EG? Is she way beyond DYS cut offs?
How did the Parents meeting go?
Love and more. Love
Grinity

Thanks, she tested 141 on the SB5. She is in year 5 but doing year 8 math through distance education and online. She has no reason to have low academic self esteem as she is the top student in math and reading.

Is this perfectionism? She is beyond the cluster group. Next year up is same school, new building. One HG girl in cluster she likes.

DD is not keen to skip. She wants to belong in her age group peer group. Says she wants to be with kids her own age.

Don't think there is bullying involved. She is liked by everyone, kind and gentle. Even befriended downes syndrome girl in the class.

This lack of academic and social self esteem seems to be baseless to anyone but her. Is she realizing she is different? Will she start to underachieve to fit in?

Writing is her "weakness" and she describes herself as "terrible" at it. Yet I know she is one of the best writers in the class, just not so far beyond like she is in math.

My gut feeling is it is time to skip, but how do I convince her? Principal has said she can skip at any time.

Am meeting in 1 week with teacher, as gifted co ordinator away ATM, and I want her present. I also want to know what it is I want for DD.

I don't want daughter saying there is nothing good about her, nothing to like, and nothing to look forward to in the future! She even said she has noticed her "lifeline " on her palm is cut short, which concerns her . The troubles of the world concern her.

What to do?

Steph
Steph

It sounds like the existential depression in gifted described here:
http://www.sengifted.org/articles_counseling/Webb_ExistentialDepressionInGiftedIndividuals.shtml

P.S. This book has more info how existential depression is tied to Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration and advice that may help.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=0910707898

Are you able to have her tell you specifically, during some calm moments, and crying is ok too, what it is she thinks she is terrible at? What did she think she was "able" to do? Did she think she was able to do something perfectly? Is it that writing includes lots of editing and that reveals a lot of "imperfection" -- even though that is part of the process?

Just some thoughts, because if she can recognize her own feelings, it will useful for the rest of her life. If she can recognize what she is afraid of, what steps she can take to slowly get better at something, etc etc

Best wishes to you and your DD,

Inky, terrific links-- that is what I was thinking about, as well, between this thread and the other one about "parenting crossroads" also about a girl about this age.


Middle school is just awful for girls (in general terms) and being different in ANY way only makes it more excruciating. Unfortunately, we can't always choose to be like everyone else:

only in what manner we are radically different.

What makes her feel most comfortable in her own skin, in other words?

{{hugs}}




That really resonates with me. I'm not sure that I know the underlying psychology there, but this sounds painfully similar to things that my own DD11 began saying about three years ago when she entered middle school. It truly doesn't seem to be "perfectionism" though it can sure look like it. DD's standards seem to be pretty idiosyncratic and variable, and it is the kind of thing that she says about not just academic work-- but ANYTHING that isn't going well (by her standards). It doesn't seem to respond to anything external, but my gut says that it is rooted in her self-perceptions and in her burgeoning recognition of how her asynchrony impacts her ability to acheive the way she would like.

Non-GT ed folks have said that "working on the weakness" to "bring it up the level of the rest" is the answer, and GT experts seem to feel that fighting asynchrony is pointless and leads to profound problems. I have no idea who (if either) is correct, or if THEY even know why some kids do this. My gut says that neither one of those answers it right for my own DD. Is it a girl thing?? I really wish that I knew.

I do think that it feeds underacheivement-- it's as though I am holding my breath as I watch DD walk closer and closer to the edge of the cliff there, or something. I can just sense it lurking there.

Former underacheiver extraordinaire, here. My rationale was something like this: If I fail (to meet my goal) after really trying my best, then I will be forced to admit that I'm not as smart as I want to believe that I am. Ergo, I will not try very hard. That way, sure, the results won't be great-- but I won't have risked anything personally, either, and therefore I can escape emotional damage by shrugging off the results with "Yeah, but I could have done so much better..."

I repeatedly set myself up for failure, and then I was never unpleasantly surprised, if that makes sense. (Yes, I know-- but an "irrational" sort of sense!) This all started in about middle school, with a move in the middle of the school year. It began as a means of 'hiding' in plain sight as a response to being different. I didn't WANT to have any 'extra' attention drawn to me by teachers, and I certainly didn't want to give something my all only to fall short. I hated rejection-- so I decided to beat the whole darned world to the punch. I quit trying for excellence and vanished into the shadows. That downward spiral went other places later on (including a whopping case of imposter syndrome), but no need to go there.

_________________

That's probably considerably OT, but I think it is worth mentioning that MOST female students who are homeschooled are pulled OUT of awful middle grade situations. (gr 5-9)

If it were me (and it isn't), I might be tempted to try distance education options or homeschool for a few years if the skip doesn't seem like the right thing to do. (And it might not be.)

To me this sounds exactly like perfectionism. How do you see it as different?

Sounds like she is engaging in a lot of self-criticism.

If she has a social network of supportive friends in her current classes then having to start all over might be further destabilizing, if she is verging on actual depression. Is she enjoying her usual fun activities? Wanting to go do things with her friends? Her usual self in other ways? Is her negativity limited to academic type subjects or is she feeling negative about a lot of aspects of life?

The parent teacher conference sounds like a great start. If that doesn't seem to shed light on it then perhaps a visit with a counselor, psychologist etc who may have experience with girls in puberty, get some sense of how seriously to take her comments, etc.

Polly

It isn't baseless to have low self esteem if one is way past ones peers. The fact that she is placed in a group that looks dumb to her means to her that people believe she is dumb. It takes a lot of maturity to accept that we may feel normal to ourselves but that doesn't make it so.

There is a real danger she will do dunb down.

As far how to convinse her....so many ways. From bribary (pony anyone) to asking her what she would do in your situation to talking more about what ot is she likes about being with her agemates to arranging a fun playdate with the older HG girl. She may need you to play the heavy and insist that she do at least a trial so she can compare. You can say that the Principle wants it if the Princip is willing. You can ask her to visualize all the boring homework that shell never have to do. Check for class trips or rituals that she may have been looking forward to for a long time.

In the end she knows that the point of school includes learning with peers and that a skip is one way to get that.

Best Wishes
Grinity

Well, I say that it isn't because we do occasionally see more classic perfectionism in action-- spinning and spinning with an assignment or task and tinkering endlessly because it "isn't quite right yet" etc. All-or-nothing mentality regarding results, etc. (Anything less than a perfect score becomes "I failed" and that kind of thing.)

This business of judging one's self by ones weaknesses-- and not very objectively at that-- is a different kind of thing. It's apparently a self-image issue, but it isn't related to DATA at all. Perfectionism is data-driven... at least what we have seen seems to be; that is, a 98% score means "I should have tried harder... I was almost there" and having to apply herself to a research paper means "I must be really stupid, because this is REALLY hard..."

Does that help?

Inky thanks, there is definitely some existential depression here! She has said she thinks life is difficult, disappointing and doesn't quite see how she will fit in.

But, outside of school all is great. She is multi-talented, playing piano, violin and French horn. She plays tennis, basketball, and learns hip hop dance outside school and loves them all. But it seems she has almost lost her identity.

Maybe Grinity you are right. She is in the wrong group. She is way ahead of them. Due to the multiage structure of the school, the older hg girl was in her class last year, and they loved working together and "competing". But this year she has gone and there is no competitionfor her academically.

I have mentioned the trial idea of a skip with her and she was less negative than just simply skipping. Otherwise maybe subject acceleration in language arts to be with the hg girl at least part time? In math my DD is way ahead of her .

DD doesn't want the skip as she feels her chances of being voted into a leadership position next year will be less! She has also been with several of her classmates for 6 years now, and relationships are very important to her.

I believe there are several issues at play here, including all the above and perfectionism. But I do not want her dumbing down to fit in!

Thanks all

Steph

This may be hormones. My daughter began this process early. Even though she is younger than the others in her class, she was one of the first to go through puberty.

She is thirteen now and is finally showing signs of settling down.

I would not skip her to a higher grade. She should probably stay put. Placing her with Middle Schoolers is "feeding her to the lions".

This has been way tougher than I imagined.

So much of what happens with girls is under the radar, but the teacher may be able to give you another view of what's going on.

I think it is always a gift to give kids a chance to see someone "professional" to help with their problems. If you find the right person, it can help with the current issue. And it helps our children see that it is ok to ask for help. It's a good life lesson.

If your child is involved with activities outside of school (teams, casts, clubs) see if you can help her cultivate friendships in those circles. I have found that if you are "out" with your group at school, it is helpful to have another group to pal around with.

Hang in there. This is hard.

Since subject accelerations or trials are availble give then a try. Think of it like introducing solid food...make changes slowly and observe and be ready to try something else. I believe that if the academics fit then the social is likely to follow but remember that even ND kids have good years and bad years socially and that is valuable life experience too.

I'm a little worried about all of the afterschool activities but I do know kids who thrive at that pace. But her activities are ones that can foster tremendous competition if done that way. Perhaps try to encourage her to move in the direction of a mixture of competitive and exploratory activities? Creating a student led school newpaper or building or creating anything or cooking or spirituality or service projects or dog training all might help get her to see live in a more ...sometimes u win sometimes u lose but u always learn something frame of mind

Love and more love
Grinity

Yes, perhaps it isn't important but I define perfectionism much more broadly. Sure, the 98% on the test and I suck is part of it. But, I think we can also see perfectionism in other areas. That can be in failure to accurately give yourself credit for good characteristics or good deeds. It can be having unrealistic expectations for yourself and other people.

Perhaps the distinctions aren't important but it might be worthwhile for the original poster to take a quick read of a few articles about perfectionism just in case understanding that may give some ideas for helping her daughter through this period.

I have a 10 year old EG girl. Actually have the opposite situation right now as my daughter is developing self esteem for the first time.

Still, I think I have a few thoughts -

1. 10 year old girls can be moody and go through funks. At least consider this possibility.

2. Miraca Gross's book on exceptionally gifted children taught me a lot. One chapter went into self esteem and pointed out the obvious: there are different aspects of self esteem. Social, academic, etc.

By looking at it as a more complex issue, maybe you can get a better feel for what is causing this. Perfectionism can certain cause issues, but social interactions can cause different kinds of issues. Different spectrums.

(If you haven't read Miraca Gross's book - it is boring. However, I felt like it was worth a read because it covers EG kids in a really thorough way.)

3. My son periodically had horrible fits of lack of self esteem. Weird as it sounds, we discovered that removing eggs from his diet changed him completely. I don't know if it was an allergy, stomach upset, or what. I just know that if he comes home from school crying for any reason, it is a sure bet that he had something with eggs in it (cake, cookies, brownies) at a party.

4. Can't remember the name of the book, but a psych a few years ago recommended a book on self esteem for me to read regarding my daughter Barbie. The key point of the whole book was that self esteem comes from facing a challenge, working hard, and experiencing success.

It is easy to think that a gifted child has good self esteem because they have experience so much success and are confident in their abilities. However, if they have never faced and challenge and worked hard to accomplish success, they don't really have the whole picture. It takes all three pieces to get there.

It isn't easy to provide an EG kids with the chance to overcome a real challenge, but it is critical to ensuring that really do have good self esteem. For my son this year, it was learning a musical instrument. No award for academics ever really mattered to him because it all came so easy. Practicing daily to hit the low notes on his euphonium did something the science contest couldn't.

5. When I was young, everyone thought I had great self esteem. I didn't. Perfectionism. Do read up on this.

My mom always told me that she just wanted me to 'try my best'. I always knew that I could have tried harder, so I never gave myself credit. I felt horrible about myself.

Only as an adult, when I was finally challenged, when I had to work my butt off to achieve something - only then did I give myself credit.

That said - a PT conference definitely doesn't hurt. A little extra girl time (not necessarily talking about this) doesn't hurt. Both have the possibilities of helping.

However, understanding perfectionism, understanding true self esteem, understanding the complexity of self esteem, and looking for underlying trends (food, certain times of month, whatever) -- all of that helps too.

Good luck.
Mary

This is such a helpful discussion for me, as well. So much of what you said seems SO right, Mary. Thank you for mentioning that sense of empowerment related to mastering authentic challenges.

I think that is truly it. <nods>

I also wanted to thank Stephanie for mentioning her feeling that this is related somehow to a sense of identity in a very basic way. This seems to be what we have also observed; further even than perfectionism (which is, no question, it's own problem), this is a global translation of the conclusions. "Well, if I'm not 'smart' then what/who AM I, really?"

DD definitely makes statements that lead us to think that her entire self-image is fairly skewed sometimes. It's very alarming-- if it were body image, you'd say "eating disorder." Instantly.

I do think that the Living with Intensity book would be very helpful to the OP.

This is such an interesting discussion as I look back on my own childhood and think about the future for my dd9.

I posted this on another thread, but thought it might be appropriate here too.

I have no idea how relevant this might be or if this will resonate with anyone re: girls and their friends, but as I contemplate my dd navigating the world of middle school cliques this struck me:
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=133871975

GROSS: You have a couple of lines about cliques. Would you read that for us?

Ms. PEARSON: This is Petra reflecting on the fact that she has recently been admitted to queen bee Jillian's group with mixed consequences.

(Reading) You chose the kind of friends you wanted because you hoped you could be like them and not like you. To improve your image, you made yourself more stupid and less kind. As the months passed, the tradeoff for belonging started to feel too great, the shutting down of some vital part of yourself just so you could be included on the shopping trip into town, not have to sit on your own at lunch or have someone to walk home with.

Now, among friends, you are often lonelier than you had been before. The hierarchy of girls was so much more brutal than that of boys. The boys battled for supremacy out on the pitch, and after, they showered away the harm. The girls played dirtier. For girls, it was never just a game.

I too would recommend the Living with Intensity book, I've just finished it and it was probably one of the most useful books I have read regarding giftedness. It covers pretty much everything that has been discussed here - perfectionism, selfhood, self esteem. The Gross book is good too - if a little dry, as mentioned.

I can really relate to the comments so far about authentic challenges. I think it is so hard for girls to really find a sense of themselves in those middle years, especially for gifted kids. The more highly gifted, the harder it is I suspect. Trying to fit in, combined with still not having adequate challenge, even with grade skips, makes it hard to find a) find opportunities for challenge in the first place and b) find a space place where you can engage in authentic challenge and still feel safe.

Good luck and I hope you're looking after yourself too. It's awful to watch someone you love go through something like this.

Some of this discussion is prompting me to consider my daughter's behaviors through lenses that I had not previously considered.

One question occurs to me in light of that.

I don't think that my DD has ever felt as though she truly fit in with any particular peer group. It hasn't ever seemed to bother her much, however-- she seemed perfectly capable of finding common ground with anyone, and just enjoying those relationships with others for what they could offer, rather than fretting about what was missing. We as parents have been pretty sanguine about her emotional needs since there didn't seem to be any real problems on that front, in spite of a lack of deeper connections with peers (of any kind).

It seems to me, though, that perhaps in the last few years, it is sinking in more forcefully that she really IS an outsider-- everywhere. As a girl, maybe adolescence is the trigger for that realization suddenly mattering to her where it didn't until now. For girls, the social part of adolescence is so hard.

Hmm. Thank you so much for suggesting the book. I've reserved it and will read it this week.

HK, your DD sounds an awful lot like mine right down to the epic power struggles -lol.

It never seemed to be a big issue to my DD, not truly having a fit with the kids at school. But as she got older, things started to go downhill, her grades dropped, she found fewer people she cared to hang around and she just became more and more withdrawn and difficult. By high-school, she had only one friend who was somewhat of a gifted outsider herself.

We were lucky enough to have found a summer camp for gifted kids (through DUKE TIP) early on, and both my DDs went every year, it wasn't until about age 13 that I started to realize what a very different and much happier child my dd was during camp than during the rest of the year. I mentioned the camp to my DDs quirky friend's mom and that year she sent her daughter too. Her daughter (14) said that that week at camp was the first time in her life that she ever really felt normal and she realized there were actually others like her out there, people who really got her.

I think the week at camp every year was like going to the home planet for reaffirmation/sanity check and it was something that maybe helped with getting through the rest of the school year where they were the odd ducks.

Unfortunately, the camp director passed away and the camp shut down a few years ago. If I ever win the lottery, I plan to start a gifted summer camp like that one, it was such a god send for my girls.