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    Originally Posted by Dottie
    Given her age, and her current scores, I think she would do quite well with a full skip. If you are lucky, that would suffice for the duration. My oldest is in a similar situation as a high school junior. She missed the cut by less than a month, and the best thing we ever did was early start her. If your daughter is on board, I would probably pursue that track, given the preschool support/etc. And while she would only be "high" not outstanding in 2nd (next year), keep in mind that she's very likely to "catch up" at an accelerated pace, and be back solidly at the top in due time. If you are lucky, this won't happen until late elementary when it's easier for a bright kid to find peers, be enriched, etc.

    I agree with Cricket2 that ability (IQ) testing is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's truly necessary given her history. You know she's bright, you had the preschool pulling for her, and she really barely misses the cut. FWIW, we early started our daughter without those scores in place. (We did have her ability tested later through the school, which helped prove our case in hindsight, but we really did know what we were doing there at the start!)

    How does your daughter feel about this possibility? Unfortunately once you do start school, their thoughts have to be factored in. We were fortunate in that we started DD early in preschool, and while it was a fight on my end, DD then was really unaware of any special accommodations. Now that your daughter is IN school, you have to consider her point of view. Again though, if she's on board, I think it's a great idea. I don't always say that about skips, particularly without cognitive data, but I think she has a lot in place to make this a good idea, including her gender. Not to stereotype, but it is less "frowned upon" for a female child (says the mom who boldly did it for both genders!)

    Best wishes!


    She is on board. We have asked her. I don't think she'd have any problem with skipping the grade and I do feel it would be better for her to have to work a little bit to earn a good grade rather than already knowing it. Her work quality has gone down b/c I think she is bored. I also have to really push her to do the little homework she gets, while she would gladly work for hours on challenging material. I think b/c they are coloring shetts and write the letter/number practice pages she is annoyed by them almost if that makes sense.

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    Originally Posted by landofthelost
    Thank you for the link and the break down. The chart is dated 2008, but it is just showing fall and spring scores for KDG thru 8th. Maybe since she took the test December they still consider it fall, though I'm not sure why.
    You have to scroll way down. Appendix A starts on page 127 of the report and that's where reading norms start. It will have K-11th grade reading fall followed by reading mid-year and reading end of year. Language usage starts next and then math.

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    Using MAP test to advance kid is a bit risky. My DS8 has MAP scores 2-3 grade above consistently since first grade. There are actually a few kids perform at his level, and the school does have flexible grouping as well as gifted program to accommodate. Except the fact that DS math skill leaped way into 99 percentile for 8th grade in last year's MAP test. That caught attention from the new principal and he initiated to move DS from 3rd grade to 7th grade math class.

    FWIW, kids with good mental strength would eventually outrun others including some of the early birds. And early advancement might expose some weak links in the mental development.

    Last edited by erich; 01/27/11 07:42 PM.
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    Originally Posted by erich
    Using MAP test to advance kid is a bit risky.
    This note made me realize that I am rather cautious with skips which is probably why I may be coming across here as more hesitant than others. It took a lot of data and convincing from dd12's school to get us to agree to skip her. I wouldn't have done it early on and with just MAPs scores. We had IQ, MAPS, ITBS, Explore, SRI Lexile, DORA, DIBELS, Acuity, WJ-III, and had her teachers fill out the IAS and I still wasn't absolutely sure. That's not to say that this much data is needed! I just may be overly cautious, though, and I'd venture to guess that if Dottie thinks a skip is a good idea, it may well be! We are on the other side of the age cut-off with both of our kids as well so perhaps more caution is warranted in a situation like my family's where looking at skipping a child who is already young for grade.

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    Originally Posted by erich
    That caught attention from the new principal and he initiated to move DS from 3rd grade to 7th grade math class.
    My guess is that no test in the world is sufficient to predict what would happen when you put a 3rd grader into 7th grade math. At a certain point you just have to be willing to try and see. Erich, it sounds like you have a wonderful school system with a bunch of really advanced kids to keep your child company - good!

    We ask the schools to be flexible all the time, so I think it's ok to ask ourselves to be flexible as well.

    So how is it going for your DS in 7th grade math?How long since the move? My son was full skipped (missed 5th) and Math accelerated (into prealgebra) at the same time, and he had to undo the extra subject acceleration. The next year he did the class over and did very well. Socially the decel wasn't a big deal, although we were worried.

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    I would be open to more testing and have even asked about it. The district has never even heard of the IAS. They do SAGES testing though(not familar with it will have to research it). I spoke with the principal for K and she feels my dd is a good candidate for a grade skip b/c of her test results so far and b/c she is so close to the age cut off. She said she did speak with the Super. and the curricululm coordiantor and they feel that a K-2 skip would be difficult as a lot of social growth happens in 1st grade. I would respect their views more if I felt they did something to evaluate my dd. I feel as they just made this decision based on some guideline they have in place not based on her. I also am annoyed since they told us in Nov. that it was too late in the year to grade skip, but made it sound like it would be a good idea if her test results were high enough for a skip after this year was completed. I feel as though they told us something just to make us go away. The principal herself said " the bar has been set very low for dd. That even next year it would be difficult to provide her with the appropriate curriculum inside the regular classroom." I am not in the frame of mind where are grade skip is the only option, but after seeing how little they are doing with her and how it is changing her behavior I am at a loss of what else to do. I can enrich her at home and send her to weekend programs, but that doesn't change that she spends 6 hours a day doing work that isn't a challenge to her and that really frustrates her. Her school day is 1 hour longer next year and I feel as though she is starting to view school as a punishment. The personality difference after she comes out of her Saturday enrichment class really makes me realize how much she enjoys being challenged and being able to be creative.

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    My DS was similar last year to your DD. He was in K last year with an early November birthday - 36 days after cutoff.

    His fall MAPS were Reading 172 and Math 189. He was in all day kinder where in our district only 1/2 day is required. So, he was able to go to 1st grade for reading and some of the other parts of the day were more enriching because of the extra time. We did not request and the school did not advance him for math (we probably should have). His spring MAPS were 203 reading and math was 196. This indicated to me that when he was nearer to his actual level in curriculum, his growth was amazing. I did not think to grade skip him last year because after much advocacy from both my husband and I, the school was actually working with us and trying to provide him some challenge and he loved Kindergarten and was very happy. Looking back, and knowing what I now know about 1st grade, he could have easily skipped K altogether, but I do think it had a benefit for him as it was his first real year of structured school and that took a little getting used to for him.

    This year (1st grade) he goes to 3rd grade for reading and 2nd grade for math (again through our advocacy). His fall MAPS for this year were 206 reading and 217 math (his math was summer growth) Based on these fall MAP numbers, the prinicipal requested that the school be allowed to do congitive and achievement testing to make sure the MAP numbers were accurate and they also did the IAS.

    After the results of the IQ/Achievement tests and the IAS, we considered a mid year skip this year, but DS (and DH for that matter) were not sold on it but he (they) realize now that he knows the 2nd grade curriculum (already) and so he will likely go to the 3rd grade next year.

    This is the path we have taken and by no means is it the path for everyone. But, I think you will see similar growth in your DD if she is provided more appropriate curriculum and your DD will need something more than what she is getting now either through subject acceleration/enrichment or through whole grade acceleration. And, I think she should get it at school (i.e. it is not OK for them to say they will have trouble providing her with the appropriate curriculum - they need to be part of coming up with a plan for her or at a minimum not block your plan for her). My DS has been bored too but his boredom leads to him being disruputive (chatty, coming up with creative ways to entertain himself, singing in class, etc.) so it has been in the schools best interest in some ways to keep him challenged.

    Good luck. I hope you can get the school to come around on these issues.


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    Originally Posted by Deonne
    My DS was similar last year to your DD. He was in K last year with an early November birthday - 36 days after cutoff.

    His fall MAPS were Reading 172 and Math 189. He was in all day kinder where in our district only 1/2 day is required. So, he was able to go to 1st grade for reading and some of the other parts of the day were more enriching because of the extra time. We did not request and the school did not advance him for math (we probably should have). His spring MAPS were 203 reading and math was 196. This indicated to me that when he was nearer to his actual level in curriculum, his growth was amazing. I did not think to grade skip him last year because after much advocacy from both my husband and I, the school was actually working with us and trying to provide him some challenge and he loved Kindergarten and was very happy. Looking back, and knowing what I now know about 1st grade, he could have easily skipped K altogether, but I do think it had a benefit for him as it was his first real year of structured school and that took a little getting used to for him.

    This year (1st grade) he goes to 3rd grade for reading and 2nd grade for math (again through our advocacy). His fall MAPS for this year were 206 reading and 217 math (his math was summer growth) Based on these fall MAP numbers, the prinicipal requested that the school be allowed to do congitive and achievement testing to make sure the MAP numbers were accurate and they also did the IAS.

    After the results of the IQ/Achievement tests and the IAS, we considered a mid year skip this year, but DS (and DH for that matter) were not sold on it but he (they) realize now that he knows the 2nd grade curriculum (already) and so he will likely go to the 3rd grade next year.

    This is the path we have taken and by no means is it the path for everyone. But, I think you will see similar growth in your DD if she is provided more appropriate curriculum and your DD will need something more than what she is getting now either through subject acceleration/enrichment or through whole grade acceleration. And, I think she should get it at school (i.e. it is not OK for them to say they will have trouble providing her with the appropriate curriculum - they need to be part of coming up with a plan for her or at a minimum not block your plan for her). My DS has been bored too but his boredom leads to him being disruputive (chatty, coming up with creative ways to entertain himself, singing in class, etc.) so it has been in the schools best interest in some ways to keep him challenged.

    Good luck. I hope you can get the school to come around on these issues.



    Thank you for your response. It sounds like the district you are in is doing some wonderful things with your ds. If they would be open to ideas like those I would be very excited.

    I did speak with the curriculum director today who is setting up another meeting for this coming Thursday. She would like the principal, teacher, school psychologist and us to sit down and come up with goals for her. She said through her observations it is clear she needs more enrichment than what the teacher is providing.

    She was against any testing b/c she feels she is too young to do them. She did know about IAS and said they do use it as a way to evaluate children for the gifted program in 3rd grade and that again ds was too young for that evaluation.

    She said that she hopes we can come up with a plan that will make us all happy and help to enrich my dd. That they again would prefer to come up with a plan that works without a grade skip as she feels the educational gaps can be significant and may impact her in the future. Her exact words were "something she misses out on now may not be noticed until she goes as far as Algebra and could hinder her future success". I am by no means a math expert, but I highly doubt any lesson she'd miss in 1st grade could somehow impact her future algebra score, but again I am no expert. I just hope the would at least be open to her going to 2nd for math as that is the area she is scoring the highest.

    I just hope that the outcome is much better after this meeting. The last one we felt good when we left, but it has been 7 weeks of days with dd in class and she has brought home 1 sheet of homework that was modified to be challenging and she wrote in the journal once that we sent in at their request. I just feel very discouraged about everything right now. It is nice to have this place to read what others have done and that many have successful outcomes. It makes me hopeful that if we continue to stay on top of the situation, come up with good options that the school with work with us and help make her school experience what it should be.

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    Originally Posted by landofthelost
    That they again would prefer to come up with a plan that works without a grade skip as she feels the educational gaps can be significant and may impact her in the future. Her exact words were "something she misses out on now may not be noticed until she goes as far as Algebra and could hinder her future success". I am by no means a math expert, but I highly doubt any lesson she'd miss in 1st grade could somehow impact her future algebra score, but again I am no expert. I just hope the would at least be open to her going to 2nd for math as that is the area she is scoring the highest.
    That sounds like total baloney to me. Math is my dd12's weakest subject. Pre-skip she was scoring btwn the 92nd to 97th percentile on grade level math achievement tests (ITBS and MAPS). She was in the 99th for everything else and remained in the 99th for everything else even right after skipping. Two and a half years after skipping 5th grade (including, of course, 5th grade math), her in grade math achievement scores are around the 94th percentile -- still not her strongest area, but she's not having any trouble.

    My kids are much older and I would be shocked if anything she missed in early elementary math would impact her later. That sounds like something coming from someone who wants to scare you into following her advice. I was told by the principal at the neighborhood elementary when we enrolled dd12 to start K shortly before her 5th bd something similar -- that we might not see the ramifications of her being younger for years and years but that it would impact her later years down the line where she would struggle academically and we would wish that we had waited to start her when she was older (which was obviously not the case).

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    Originally Posted by landofthelost
    She was against any testing b/c she feels she is too young to do them. She did know about IAS and said they do use it as a way to evaluate children for the gifted program in 3rd grade and that again ds was too young for that evaluation.
    If you can get your hands on a copy of the IAS manual and read through it, I think that might be helpful. Perhaps ask the curriculum specialist. Certianly send and email thanking her for her time and 'following up.' Here is a possible way to 'ask the right question' that might help get the ball rolling. Weirdly, if a key player is 'against acceleration' then they will act like it's impossible, right up to the minute before they change their mind. Then it was all their idea. It's a good time to take a deep breath.

    Dear So and So,
    I'm so looking forward to the next meeting, and I'm so pleased that you are clear that my child needs more than what she is currently getting. I had a few parts that I think I could have misunderstood, perhaps you could clear them up before the meeting.
    1) You mentioned that my child is too young to use the IAS, is that correct? If so, can you show me where the Manual shows that he is too young?
    2) You mentioned that my child is too young to benifit from testing, is that correct? If so, which tests do you typically use, and can you explain in more detail this idea?

    You mention that of course gaps can be detrimental to a child. On the other hand, there is also possible detriment to a child's developing work ethic and love of learning by not providing a good fit educational environment that is much more difficult to remedite than Algebra. My spouse and I are perfectly willing to sign a paper that we will be responsible for any problem that gaps cause our child.

    The positive effects of grade skips have been well documented (see http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Resources/Policy_Guidelines/
    and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nation_Deceived

    and that we should be sure not to take any workable alternative off the table without carefully studying our child's educational needs.

    Thanks again for your attention and caring,
    .....



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