Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Acceleration or not

Do you ever get more comfortable w/GT or do you always have this occasional nag that chirps - oh to be normal or happily bright?

We had dd #1 assessed last spring... after simply asking for special teacher selection at public school... we got the "sure your kid is special look." So, the post assessment counseling the guy was clear. K was not even an option and of, by the way, that great school district you moved for only offers pull-out so that won't work. Now, we did find a charter school (free but a really long drive) that offers self contained gifted classrooms. And, the skip went smooth as pie (minus her rough handwriting skills - she's still soring).

But here come the debate, along comes dd#2 who does not have that same first born self driven disposition... Her birthday is in jan so there maybe more fuss about acceleration than her december born sister. Last time we didn't see it coming - we knew she was ahead of everyone we knew but assumed in a bigger pond there would be others like her. But this time, we can't claim we are naive.... we can see it coming.

When I talked of dd#1 acceleration it freaked out everyone but was the right thing to do... With #2... it seems early k entrance, wait and skip k, wait for her to become an underachiever, or sell her to gypies. I'm not asking the nervous hens in the outside world, I'm asking here.

Outside of having the scores and ability... when do you know acceleration is a good fit. Does anyone have a highly gifted but (not profound 160+) who has a story to tell (especially for non-first born ... basically #1 is all the symterical/leadership etc. part of the gifted lists and #2 is all the humor/sensitive/creative side).

Sorry for being so wordy. By the way, #1 is home today and keeps interupting to point out she's finished another chapter of Addy (american girl) - she's just 6 (I know but i have no family outside this house so who else can i tell with a smile and not have talk behind my back that i'm a liar or a brag).

Thanks!

what's 2E (still new the lingo)? thanks, helpful.

2E = twice exceptional. A GT child with a possible learning disability or other known problem that can add to educational complexity.

Where is DD#2 "acadmically"? Does she attend pre-school? Is she engaged at preschool? Does she have friends her age or does she prefer older kids?

I have a son in first grade. We didn't know he was more than moderately gifted before kindergarten. He has a fall birthday, but I never thought of sending him early. And I actually still don't regret it. He is a very high energy kid, and our neighborhood all day kindergarten is more like 1st grade and really requires a bit of focus. He would have been a non-stop discipline problem a year early.

My point of all that is, another option is to do kindergarten (maybe even 1/2 day if you can do that) and skip to 2nd (as we should have but we had our sights set on another school we didn't get into, and no one does a grade skip around here) if she is currently happy and engaged with age mates. Kindergarten just seems to be a bit more flexible and less dry than first, and then you can make the skip after to 2nd.

And I'm sorry you got the "I'm sure your kid is special" look. I have to say, I'm quite sick of that look and attitude. I wonder if teachers/administrators get that many parents coming in looking for GT programming or acceleration for their kids that really shouldn't have it? I find that hard to believe.

My DS will be 7 in March. We had him tested in the spring before kindergarten would have started for him. I used the Iowa Acceleration Manual as a guide. I scoured A Nation Deceived, Genius Denied and other resources about educational planning for GT kids. We advocated for him to skip K. We eventually got that and then last year he was again subject accelerated in math. So this year he is 2nd grade but goes to 3rd for math. It has been working pretty well this year - although the acceleration hasn't solved the problem of boredom and slow paced curriculum. But at least he is getting new topics to learn some of the time!

MrWiggly is not profoundly gifted. More like the 130s IQ. He also has some of the "bothersome" characteristics of GT such as perfectionism, high sensitivity, emotionality and stubbornness. He is also very social. There have been bumps and our journey is far from over. But I would do the acceleration all over. I'm now thinking about how we can meet his needs even better next year, which may mean curriculum differentiation or further subject acceleration. Hope that personal story helps some.

Ditto everything she said about my DS6.5, only his BD is in spring so he was one of the youngest in his grade (in an area the loves to red-shirt boys). It all still applies.


I second this, too. DS6 was very happy in half-day, not highly academic K, but was miserable in all-day, "learn to read" 1st grade. I'm glad he had 2 years of preschool and was in the K he was in. I wish we'd skipped 1st grade entirely and gone straight to 2nd.

FWIW...

And, yes, to answer your first question, kickball, sometimes I think wistfully of the smooth-sailing educational track I had assumed my child would have, and I mourn. I think it's only natural. But then I sigh and go back to real life! <shrug> It's all we can do, no?

My ds5 is a spring birthday, so we never really thought about early entrance; he probably could have done that, but we honestly didn't think he was *that* gifted. though. Now we're looking for a skip to second in the fall, though the school is dragging its heels (have to email the principal today, actually ... ).

I did exactly what dajohnson60 did -- I read, read, read about the options. I also went right out and bought the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual to see where ds would fall. I read (and still am reading!) all information I can find on gifted kids and learning styles.

Everything I'm seeing is pointing toward a skip for my ds5 -- including my own view of him. He's more sensitive and certainly more scatterbrained than he is on task; though he tested borderline EG/PG, his teachers are seeing him as spacey and tuned out. Well, sure -- he learned to read almost 3 years ago and they're teaching letter sounds! But even with his scatterbrained tendencies, it's clear that the K curriculum is nowhere near where he is, and I seriously want to prevent "slacker syndrome" from setting in. That's why we're pursuing a skip.


Agreed that this might be a good option. Probably what we should have gone for with ds5. Ah, hindsight ...

Anyway, I recommend you get a copy of the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual (these can be found on Amazon) and see what you think. The "A Nation Deceived" report is also great reading. And have you checked out Hoagies' gifted site yet? Certainly worth a look and a goldmine of information.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

Mia

Can we form a support group for "wish we'd done half-day K and skipped 1st altogether?"

It seems to be a common theme, no?

Hi,

Our dd13 was early entranced to K at very good private pre-school, then made to repeat K rather than enter 1st with the public school because they consider themselves more rigorous than other schools. We tried to reverse this poor decision for two years before we finally gave up and transferred our daughter to the local Catholic school where our son had been early entranced.

Although, we had tried to have our daughter grade advanced at PS, we really did not pursue it for the private school as we believe their curriculum really is more advanced than the PS, but she was offered the grade advance anyway.

It has turned out very well for her. She fell into a class of bright students where high achievement is the social expectation and she has had to work for her success. She was very happy socially at PS with age mates, but has been more challenged by her current peers.

Her personality is such that she will give exactly what is expected in school, no more and no less. Even though she would have been fine socially and received good grades whether or not she skipped 2nd, she is best served by a classroom where the bar is high and she has someone to chase.

Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual -

now I'm wondering if I really have seen this... does it address behavioral, social, or learning styles components. Again, the academic piece... her WSPPI is another 2 wks off (but thus the returned obsession on this)... but if I use her sister as a comparative... I only see #2 at or above #1 just without the easy first-born stero-type behavior. #1 falls between 3 and 4 deviations (I can't seem to make a clear guess on Ruf) above on wsppi so highly but not profoundly.

The IAS deals with it all, including sibling issues and height (so as to put off the adminstrators who think only stiltwalking kids can skip!).

I want in! Kindergarten's format just seemed to lend itself better to kids at many places. And our K teacher was fantastic. He really looked at each kid individually and tried to take them from there. And he was male! Not everyone gets a male kindergarten teacher.

Tommorow we are going to a local GT homeschool/afterschool resource fair which should be quite interesting!

OOOOOOOOOOOH! My eyes are always bigger than my calendar at those things!

And of course you're in the support group! You're a charter member, dear!

I am actually trying to advocate for my son to skip K and go right to 1st. He is a December birthday though. I also work full time and need a full day solution (including after-school care which starts in most programs for children in 1st grade).

I need the support group too, even though we are trying to do it a little differently.

It all depends on the K and the kid. My DS loves to be focused on a task and finish it. His K is very chaotic (K-otic?) and they switch tasks every 10 mins. or so. The other kids cannot stay on task and are always bugging DS. Going to first grade would a huge improvement in this situation for him! I really hope it works out.

My son skipped K and went right into 1st grade. He had began removing himself from circle time in pre-school a couple of years earlier, so he would not have liked K.

LOL! Maybe you guys should form your own group and we can all get together for team thumb-wrestling competitions.

That's the part I'm still wrestling with... So I mean I get it that skipping k made sense since 1st is still smooth sailing... but if #2 comes in the high 140s too... does that mean entering K at 4.5 is right (I know you aren't a crystal ball but my parents have passed away and I lack anyone without vested/self-motivatations to ask). I know I sound like look at me... but really is it that uncommon... I wish I could look at someone else a few years up and go - oh that's possible... but most stuff I've seen (which is not exhaustive yet) is geared at 125-135 or 160+ and since she wasn't reading at 2 the later doesn't give me a clear picture. Sorry, I'm moving into obsession mode. Know that it is because for long-term education I'm debating selling a house we built (ok the builder people did the actual building :-) to get into a school district that is self contained gifted - then I wonder... am I overreacting is she really so different.

Have you read Deborah Ruf's book "Losing Our Minds"? It's what put it all in perspective for me. It isn't everyone's favorite book, but it was absolutely indispensible for helping me get over my "GT denial" and understand just what was up with my DS6.

She deals with all levels of GT, from "vanilla" GT to PG, so it might be a good place to start...

Be careful though---the more I read that book and saw the characteristics of my son and his corresponding level the more worried I became.

LOL! Yes, there is that moment of "Holy doo-doo! I didn't sign on for THIS!"

"He's got to be MG...He's got to be MG..."

Ah, that GT denial!

Now Dottie can I ask, are you kids in a traditional public school or any traditional style school? Sorry playing catch up.

And I think Losing our minds sounds like a next read if I need to get out of denial... where I think I've been trying to get back to since assessing last year. I'm telling you I'm up for that k-something reader for downloads... I get on benders like this i want to run to the bookstore right now (well not literally i might drop a cupcake or something).

Ok going back to put this is - and maybe this is like when 1st time parents say they aren't wound to tight because they are too close to see... I've read the stats 99.9/1 in a 1,000 but is that such a big step from the 1-100 like is the kid who gets an 88% on a math test so much different than the 90% one is an A one a B but so different or am I apples and oranges here.

btw does the private message light always flash... clicked it a few times claims their is a message but darned it anything is in the box.

As far as the message box--it's always flashing for me.

I stopped paying attention to it and then a few days ago I found I had two messages from last month. Sorry to those who sent me one--I have now replied.

My private message light always flashes too. I just run my cursor over it and if it says 1 then I know I have no private messages. 2 or more means an actual message.

Hi Kickball,

I'll quickly jump in with my quick response based on our situation. (Those of you who know me can just skip this post as I fear I am starting to sound like a broken record ;-) )

My DS is in the 140+ crowd and could easily have been skipped from an academic standpoint and I totally agree with Dottie that many kids whose scores are lower than that would do fine academically with a skip, so I doubt that you need to worry about that aspect.

For us the decision to not skip was based on the fact that DS really loved school, loved his class, was adaptable, is an extrovert etc. He did not want to skip and his school (which is mediocre by all outward standards) has bent over backwards to accomdate him in his classroom. Now in 6th he goes he takes algebra with the honors 8th graders and is in a very small gifted class for English.

Watching these boards I think many of us have decided that mediocre public schools without great reputaions may be more willing to accomodate HG+ kids than schools that are outwardly doing better and may be prone to smugness. DS's teachers have usually expressed concern that they are not able to do enough for him and come to me for help and ideas. Meanwhile many parents who have kids in "good" schools are having to jump up and down and shout and still no one seems to notice. So I guess I'm saying be cautious about moving schools based on reputation, becasue sometimes the ones with good reputations are the worst fit for HG kids. KWIM?

I concur. Apparently our school system--one of the few "good" ones in our area--has a 40% GT rate. So when they say "All our kids are GT," they really mean it (or think they do...).

They don't grade skip, they don't subject accelerate, they don't do well at differentiation in general...aside from the one-hour-a-week pullout for math (and only math) that doesn't start until 3rd grade, I can't see that they do much!

Reasons why we're HSing...

I'd take a less-good school system that gave a you-know-what about my child's needs any day!

Hi Kickball!
When I hear the chirping, I go back and re-read this excellent article, which wasn't written for GT kids, but for parents of special needs kids -

http://www.our-kids.org/Archives/Holland.html

I think you have gotten great advice. What has school and social interactions been like for your DD#2 so far? Sounds like your DD#1's school is a treasure. What do they say?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Agreed, but I think you've just offered up a third option that's different from the two being discussed: the "good" school or the "not-so-good" school, both options catering to the general public, not just to GT kids.

A gifted school with individualized instruction AND true peers might even be the ideal situation for nearly all of these kids! Certainly it's high on the list of favorable situations. Unfortunately, it's not an option that most people have access to.

Here's something to consider - would DD2 do K at the charter school? Given what you have seen of DD2, and the worked given to DD1 in the various grades, what grade do you think matches DD2's readiness? If DD2 is at or above DD1, do you think she could tolerate the gifted classroom without the gradeskip.

I don't think that gradeskips are only for kids who 'look' gifted, I think they are even more important for kids who don't have that 'built in work ethic.' Most important is to match the program and the kid. Where will she be most likely to find 'peers?'

I want to second that 'IQ's over 160' means you are reading books that don't use the currently availible tests. I think parents of girls have to be especially careful to place their daughters in situations where the child get used to pushing herself - so many girls are good at reading Adult expectations, and molding themselves to meet whatever the expectations are around them.

Best Wishes and remember...It's a process,
Grinity

I think the key here about "accelerate or not?" is that it is a decision that is unique to each child and each situation. When I talked to someone at Dr. Ruf's by email, she stated that Dr. Ruf typically recommends enrolling the kid in K and then skipping 1st. Her rationale, I believe, was that the K experience is helpful for the socialization and what our school staff called "learning how to be in school." Then, 2nd grade tends to be an opportunity for all the first graders to catch up to each other and be prepared for 3rd (?) so that a GT kid can easily skip 1st and get it all in 2nd when it's presented at a faster pace (more of a review for everyone else?). Seems logical to me, but it would have never worked for my son.

Like someone else said (sorry, I've lost who it was!) - my son would NOT have liked K. He was already acting out in preschool and needed the structure of "real learning" in first grade. Although, about 6 weeks into first grade he did tell me that he was done with first grade and wanted to know when 2nd grade would be starting!!!

We don't have options for schooling - one rural school, no private ones nearby and none that we could afford anyway. Moving is out right now. Homeschooling is out right now. So, acceleration in the small school that has what I think is a non-challenging curriculum overall, is the best option for us. Like the article on Hoagies says, you just have to weigh all the options against what your child needs and then make the decision to go with the "least worst option" for education. And then next year you do it all over again!!!

Kickball,
I agree with what everyone says about each child being different and having to look at their maturity level. I think another difference I've noticed just in my family (GT sibs, although we didn't know it, GT nieces and nephews now)is that GT boys seem to be more challenging than GT girls in school. Please let me know if any of you disagree with this - it's just my own personal observation. Anyway, if you see my posting "just starting out" I'm having difficulty with my DD4's Montessori school not wanting to enter her into K early. Her B-day is Jan. also. I'm looking into other options and I'll let you know how that works out. I can tell you our Pub. school has a Jan. 1st deadline for consideration for early entrance, but we may try to bend the rules - also looking at a Catholic school.

As for the "good" district vs. "bad" district. I've witnessed the same things. My doctor's son attended one of the top 5 districts in the area and was very poorly served as GT. They cater to the middle-of the-roaders. They don't do well with anyone who differs from the norm in either direction. The reason they get good reputations is mostly because of achievement testing scores which caters to white, middle class, typically developing kids and ultimately tells you nothing of the district's true worth. My nephew goes to VERY poor rural school and the teachers are bending over backwards to accomodate/challenge him. My niece (same district) had a teacher recently ask her to bring in different works of art she's created b/c she suspects she's artistically gifted. It takes a great teacher to notice that! It also depends greatly upon the individual teachers. I teach in a district with 5000 teachers, some brilliant, some glorified babysitters.

(Sorry I have such a tendency to ramble -as many of you have said, I can't talk to anyone else about these things and I get excited to communicate with people I can relate to.)

Anyway, I'll let you know how things work out for us and anything that works/doesn't work along the way.

Hi CFK-- I agree that The HG gifted friendly school can be a good option, but those programs are few and far between. Where we live it really is not an option so I didn't think about it.

I think it is really important to make a distinction between programs that are truly HG+ friendly (like the one your son is in) and programs that are "just" gifted programs. Many gifted programs put kids in classes that run the curriculum a year ahead. That's all. We had a chance to put DS in one of those and chose to keep him in a regular class. His teachers were willing to give him college level reading materials in his regular mixed-ability classroom, but the "gifted" classroom insisted that all the kids were doing the same thing (and the teacher in the gifted class wasn't nearly as good as the one he had.)

Regardless of what is on paper, you need to observe the school and the teachers, and see if it really will accomodate your child's needs. Don't trust the brochure!

Good Point ACS,
Spending a few hours observing the possible future placement is a wonderful way to
a) get to know the teacher
b) see what the rest of the kids are like
c) see what happens to children who are 'different.'
d) check out the availible learning materials,and if the children actually use them
e) Look at how much time the children are working independently, how much time in small goups, perhaps leveled groups, how much time alone.
f) How much noise/clutter/touching/quiet sitting/movement is going on, and will that suit the child?

Of course each particular group of children has it's own flavor, but it's much more reliable that what the schools write on their websites. Even if the website sounds wonderful, remember that somehow,the exact same words that we use here, are used by the schools to mean totally different things. Most particularly: "We differentiate the classroom instruction and materials to challenge every learner." Could be great - but unlikely. Ranks up there with "I will love you forever." as words to judge by a history of actions, not by what one hopes they mean. ((Humor Alert))

Smiles,
Grinity

Kickball, have you actually found a district that has a self contained gifted program? That is worth checking out. Those programs can work for highly gifted kids but as so many others have said there are a number of factors to consider. I have to share my story about schools just to give a different perspective.

After the birth of my youngest dd we began the search for a bigger house. My oldest dd was in preschool. We live in one of the best school districts in the state. I told the realtor to look anywhere in the district except where the houses were zoned to school "X" - the "worst" school in our district. We purchased our house in a nice neighborhood where I could walk my children to school once they started. During this time I began to realize that my dd was extremely bright. In preschool it became apparent that a regular school situation simply would not work for her. At the very least she would have to be accelerated. I was reading the community paper one day and found an article about a new Spanish immersion program in the district. Of course the program was housed at school "X". This sounded like a terrific option for my dd so I enrolled her in the program. Now I drive her several miles to school each day rather than walk her to our neighborood school. God has such a sense of humor. (I had also once said that I would never live in the city in which I live. I should learn not to do that!)

I have found that this terrible school (Title I with 70% of the students on free and reduced lunch) has been a terrific place for my child to be educated. Last year I particpated on a district-wide committee to improve elementary GT services. I went in excited about making improvements only to discover that the services my dd receives at the "worst" school in the district were better than most of the other "exemplary" schools. Many of the schools do not even have differentiated reading groups so all the students in the class read the same books. In our school, all the teachers are required to have differentiated reading groups. It is ironic that some of the methods needed to help the slower learners actually benifit the advanced learners.

I have also discovered that "in general" you have more dedicated teachers working in the Title I schools. Teachers who are willing to work to meet individual students needs. It is definitely a calling. You also have a lower student-to-teacher ratio. My dd's class has a limit of 18 students. Most of the other classes in the school have 15 or less students. Title I schools are also eligible for a lot of grant money to get things like technology and other programs.

Things are not always as they appear on the surface. Sometimes it is worth a closer look.

Summer

Yes, I read that same passage aloud to DH when I saw it. I think my teeth were literally chattering with fear!

I think it's also why I resisted bringing out the baby book to check real dates for so long, though I didn't realize at the time that I was resisting. I was really terrified to think that DS6 was one of those kids. If I just eyeballed it, I could persuade myself that he might be a level 3 kid. Somehow that seemed more managable.

People who think we're all about the glamour or prestige or bragging rights or whatever of having one of these kids just has no idea! Ugh!

What??? Now that's really scary thought. Is it too early for a drink?

BTW I cried when I first read Ruf's book. DH was proud, but I completely freaked out. How about a nice level 2 child with a subject or two in 3, wouldn't that be nice?

Posting at the same time Now that's what I am talking about!

May be DS3 could fit this profile? I don't think he is where DS5 is, but when I looked at the milestone list at the old DYS application, I had to admit that DS3 did better on them than DS5. He doesn't have his drive and intensity though. I can still hope, right? I am in quite a denial when it comes to DS3. The poor kid had to start reading at 2 before I was willing to admit that perhaps he may be gifted too.

Pass me the bottle, LMom! I was still counting on DD3.5 to be my 2/3. Not looking good. She read a couple early readers this past week and starting writing her best friends names.

"My early college concern is more financial in nature. We purchased the pre-paid college tuition programs from our state when our children were born. The plan only allows the the child to enter college three years earlier than originally predicted due to age. DS11 is up by two years already, we don't have too much more room without factoring in a gap year or something."

I've always thought it would be fun to backpack around Europe with my girls for a year or two if they graduated from school early and let them go to college "on time"
"Unschool" them if you will.
However, just because I think that would be super awesome, doesn't mean they will!!

Incog

Why don't you beef up the summer learning and we'll plan to meet up in Paris in September!!!!!!

Incog

Maybe because I read the Ruf book when DS was 11 and I could see that he could do college work already, that quote actually validated my experience and helped me relax.

DS is 12 and has ACT scores higher than those of entering freshman at the regional liberal arts college where DH teaches. I'm still trying to make sense of that! So, it is clear that he could take college classes--in fact, since we are friends with the registrar (and he would get free tuition), it would actually be EASY.

And yet I don't think college at 12 is suited to his personality. He actually thrives being around 6th graders, playing dodge ball, and making bodily function jokes. (So do the frat kids at the college, but I'm really not ready for that!) He has not yet reached a level of academic curiosity that teachers, DH and I cannot meet his need. I know that there are a lot of kids who feel driven to learn in a certain subject or set of subjects beyond the level that parents/school are prepared to teach. And college makes sense for them.

Partly because DS's interests match our own (so we can meet his needs) and partly because he is curious but not driven, he is not yet ready for college. But I am grateful that we will have a college option when we need it.

Umm Dottie - I'm counting on my fingers, but assuming no further subject acceleration for your DS, at what age will he run out of HS Math? Maybe a CC math class or Online Collegel level Math isn't such a terrible thing for a young teen to be doing?

((standing by with the Defibrulator))
Maybe those School Admins are correct in assuming that we Moms of Gifted Kids can't count????

Love and More Love,
Grinity

((Big Grin))
She'll change her mind as the years go by....
Grinity

It makes me glad that DS3 isn't reading yet. (Though he is writing, if that makes any sense...I think there was someone else who had that some sort of weirdness with their child. CFK, was it you? Can't remember.)

Though I think my worries about 2E with him negate any sighs of relief I might have from his lack of early reading...

<taking two or three swigs before passing the bottle>

Oh, and I would TOTALLY do the gap year thing if my DSs were to finish early. We'll go bum around Europe, sleeping in hostels and seeing the sights, for a year or three.

That's my idea of heaven! Maybe with the HSing foundation, I'll get lucky and it will be their idea of heaven, too.

Ok. I'm trying to read all and reply in one... but this I'll forget. In our state, the state gives districts the "right" to turn you away at jan 1... but it is left to each district. we can petition our district... dd#1 was a dec bday so we only had to apply not petition just to get the form but we'll see as #2 is jan 2.

Kriston,

DD5 prefered to write before read. It didn't mean she couldn't read, just that SHE wasn't ready to.

Incog

So let me get this straight... If #2 falls anywhere between 3-4 deviations over like #1, academically we're probably good. K seems liked but not so big on 1. I should read Ruf but it will make me nuts. I'm freaking out about early entrance to K and now you have me thinking about future skips and college at 12 (are you trying to kill me?). Pretty schools aren't all they seem, sniff out title 1. We are super lucky because 2 quasi-local districts do have self contained gifted classrooms 2-8th grades. And should be thankful to be attending an all gifted charter school. And clearly based on stories and reactions... this isn't ever going to actually get easy.

F-bomb.

Well. Good to know. Rats. #2 and #3 finished in bath with dad which means I'm running out of time.

Uh... I'll address rest in another post - sorry.

Oh, the scope on options is that #1's all gifted charter offers a K program but it is all day. and i think selfishly I'm not ready for all day at 4.5 and I'm not sure she'd want to give up playtime for all day (but she'd have lunch and recess with #1 which would be huge - but less time to bond w/#3). Here's hoping she actually sits for her assessment. If the draw-a-person was actually valid she'd be a 200 :-) Crap. Now everyone is crying upstairs. God love my dh but he has the post bath parenting skills of a tomato.

Wow! Deja vous. I have wet kids running circles around me right now because their father can't see to find pajamas.

My DD3 doesn't really know the whole alphabet either (I don't think). But she has a bunch of sight words and has pieced together some shorter books. And DS7 did not "read" until kindy and now has overtaken his entire class in reading. There were lots of readers in his kindergarten class. He was approaching the top of his class by mid year. But for him, I really think it was he just didn't want to read until he hit about 3rd grade level. And he never said "I can read" until he could read where he wanted to read. We read much more involved stories when he was pre-school age - james and the giant peach, etc etc etc.

DS read signs from age two, but no early readers, ever. He started on Narnia books by 5. I just don't think he cared to spend his time reading books that were not intellectually engaging. That and he hated to sit still.

It was most likely me. Complete normal for us. LOL DS5 memorized hundreds of words when he was 2 and used to type them on the computer over and over. He also used to take books with simple words and type the words. May be that's why he is such a good speller

DS3 never did this, so we were taken aback once he started reading. I recovered quite fast saying that we will see if he would be able to read chapter books when he is 3. Some people (read me) just cannot be helped, you know. BTW He says that he doesn't want to read chapter books yet, so here you go

kickkball,
Seems like you are on the right track. Perhaps local K if you can find a 'non-academic' half day program (with or without early enterance,) and then skip first to Gifted Magnet for 2nd.

Good luck with the wet children - I just turned over my clean, wet one to DH for the last leg into sleep. Luck for me, DH is great at quiet creeping, as DS sleeps with 'both ears open.'

Don't worry about College at 11. My son is Ruf level III (I think - can't remember that well) and tests at 3rd SD, and seems to be well on track with College at a young 17. Of course he may take a college class over the summer or one in the evening to keep the challenge level right, but I think that if you can accomidate when they are young, and teach good work ethic, you will have more choices at age 11. I like the trip to Europe Gap year idea!

Some kids do college locally at 11, and then 'sleep away college' at 17 - the point is to meet their needs, and not get too hung up on 'what it looks like.' Serious involvement in Music or Dance can eat up a lot of time (did I say that aloud?)and is great for teaching many life lessons.

The key thing is, that no matter what you do, you do not have to do it alone, or amoung people who think you are nuts.

And maybe it's a good time to remember what pleasures these dear children are - I have friends who say that they find spending so much time with their own children to be boring. I felt like I finally came home after my DS was born. I know, I'm not supposed to be using him to fill my needs for decent conversation - but I seriously was in Gifted Denial and didn't set up my life in such a way that a portion of my social life was spent with 'likeminded' women - that's why I'm here so much, but I'm fixing it in real life too!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Aha! Thanks for jogging my memory. I knew it was somebody with a letter-heavy name! I just forgot which specific letter. <grin>

"F-bomb."

LOL, yep, that was me about 2.5 months ago. I'm now on "Crappiness runs in a circular motion ...."

:-D

HAHAHAHAHAH ... crappiness runs in circular motion!!!!! Oh great!

Let's step back and clarify so I can reliquish my decision process to you :-)

You suggest half-day K now and maybe skip 1. But to clarify, if I send #2 who is 4.5 to K we already going (very) early entrance with a Jan 19th birthday. So I don't see turning around and skipping 1 or is the suggestion to keep her in a pre-school program for the 08-09 year and go to gifted all day K instead of skipping into 1st? Make sense.

At least, i think I'm gaining more appreciation for the school. i should be more thankful that I have an all inclusive option that is free (minus gas and the siter we hire for me to pick up during nap time) regardless of its location. to have a charter school you know - failing district and this one has all the "glories" in the community that come with a severally economically depressed neighborhood.

also thanks for being so generous with your time. i wish you could have seen the shrink reacting to me after the assessments - you know ho with goes with the first.... I totally back peddled about why I wanted it done... and he kept saying come on, you had to know. and many of you understand - if not all - that you just might not. these kids are the only ones i've watched grow... we've picked up friends along the way but not enough to say my kid is different from all not just a few. I remember seeing a kindergarten goals sheet when I was looking for a 4 year old pre-school program and thinking, you are kidding right. you doesn't know their abcs and 123s, etc.

Also thanks to the post w personal experience to say our 99.9 is different than the 98/99th. It helps now making decisions and it will help as we make decisions that have to serve our whole family not just one child. Two weeks we'' know about #2 but we have to be careful not to trap ourselves into a perfect decision that only serves gt if #3 doesn't fall in or so high. she's only a year and a half. uh, course she seems to know half the alphabet so I didn't claim to be smacked out of denial yet.

How did it take me a year to check out this part of the davidson site!

Oh, as for dh and the bath - explain to me how he didn't notice that the 6 yr old who showered vs the 2 in the bath - came out with the same bun in her hair she went in with... think it out babe do you think that head is actually clean. oh well, we'll go with the 80% rule on that!

Ok acs - that does actually sound like DS. He could identify signs, etc from a young age (I don't remember when!), but at the time I definitely thought all toddlers could do that.

But didn't care to read until he could read something more involved like that. He was a very active preschooler! He will focus for hours on "his" projects though.

Hmmm...Is it perhaps semi-normal for GT kids to write before they read? It seems like several of these kids did.

GT or not, I think most kids can write before they can read - if we qualify writing as copying or writing sight word. this we did, but if you mean write bunches of stuff they didn't ask me to write out first or copy from a book not here. Both started writing their names around 2.5 and writing copycat stuff closer to 3. our problem is we are paying a price for letting them teach themselves... I don't know if the 6yr will ever make letters according to rules. hopefully it won't impact learning cursive?

my dd was reading chapter books at 3 (self tought to read) but did not learn to write until they started school in 1st grade (6 yrs).

Writing, far more than reading, seems to be how DS3 is learning his letters. He had no interest in letters whatsoever until he started writing. Now he says, "Mommy, I want to write ____."

I show him how to make the letters he doesn't already know, and he's off to the races.

Ds5's writing is still atrocious, and he taught himself to read at 3. Even now he hardly ever writes. I don't know which is more "normal" ... or if there even is a "not normal," really, for order of learning reading/writing.

Well, it *seems* "not normal" to me that he's writing before he's reading. It's certainly different than the order of things that everyone in my personal experience has progressed through. (Not that that matters, mind you. )

I mean, it's not that he's scribbling and calling it writing. That seems like something most kids do. He pretty much never did that. One day he just decided he was ready to write, and he said "How do you make an E?" Immediately he started making lovely Es that look like Es. He can sign his name very legibly. He drew a picture for his friend and wrote the friend's name on it. He loves to write. But he can't read a single word yet except his name, and he's not reliable about that.

He's a perfectionist--it's clear already--so maybe he's just the all or nothing kind of kid, and it's easier to write a letter for him now than it would be for him to read a WHOLE story or even a whole word.

Dunno. I just know it seems bass-ackwards to me. More evidence to make me wonder if this kid is just ND, is GT but just different than child #1, or 2E. <shrug> That's why I wondered how common it was.

Thanks Kickball,
The key question is this, how does DD react to the 'baby work' in the preschool she is in now? If she is 99.9 then GT school with some level of full skip sounds good, and your third child can enjoy the same school without the skips if he falls into the 97-99 range.

As for the Full K next year v. half-day local K this year, totally depends on your needs, and how she reacts socially to being with agemates in a school or preschool environment. She may need to be with older children next year in the local half-day K for social reasons, or the preschool, with it's less academic orrientation may be perfect. If you can post some about her personality, and how she does in playdates, etc, or when olders sister's friends come over to play, we'll try to help you think about it - but I do think you have a good handle on the key parts of a workable program.

Smiles,
Grinity

Kriston, I guess you'll know soon enough whether you get DS tested our not!! C-Dog did somewhat the same thing as DS. She said she could not read, but she was really saying she did not want to read. She is quite an actress and even had me convinced. Big bad mommy trying to make the little girl read!

In kindergarten, the kids that were reading seemed to get some type of "special attention" in DD's eyes. Her reading then exploded. Of course I didn't know it at the time, but in hindsight, it was clear. She isn't going to do anything she doesn't want to and is smart enought to know simply claiming she can't do it gets her out of it.
I'm not saying that is what's going on with your son. Maybe, maybe not.
I just think if a child can write words, there is a good chance they could read those same words if they wanted to. Unless of course there is some sort of twice exceptionality going on.
Also, we didn't think DD5 was smart as compared to big sister. DD5 is 99.6 vs. DD8 99.9. Yes, there is acually quite a difference between the two. However, DD5 is STILL 99.6. She still has severe needs we need to address educationally. Her needs seemed more downplayed compared to big sister's. But, and a BIG BUTT, We were comparing her to big sister, not her normal group of peers. See what I mean?

Incog

Hmmm ... ds's reading did seem to really hop when the crosswords and word searches came out for the reading kids in his kindergarten class ... DD3 is much more willing to show her stuff than DS is. DS had horrible small motor skills before kindergarten. He could write in big block caps after 4, but it was always accompanied by much whining.

Exactly! And that's exactly what I wonder about. But I haven't followed up with a specialist yet for a couple of reasons. 1) I think they'll think I'm crazy to take my DS3 to a doctor because he can't yet read, and 2) just when I was ready to make an appointment (no matter what they thought of me!), he started writing all of a sudden and very well. That said to me that maybe I'm just being a nervous nellie and he's just developing differently.

But I can't get past how weird it seems to me for a kid to write before reading, which is why I wondered how common that is, if it indicates a 2E issue or if it's just another developmental path?

I think it all comes to what you define as a reading. Reading to me is the ability to read words you haven't seen before. You know it's not "just" an ability to memorize lots of words. DS5 could "read" the words he remembered, but to me it wasn't reading. KWIM? When DS3 started sounding out words we didn't really believe him. We thought he had memorized how to sound out a few words. Once he got to the point of "And what does ... mean?" we finally agreed that yes, he may be really reading.

What happens if you write down a word he writes often enough and ask him to read it?

I agree with that definition. Memorization alone isn't reading. Check.



I don't know that I've tried that. I will do so tonight. (They're playing by themselves, and there's no way I'm interrupting that!!! )

I will say that he has never spontaneously read anything but his name. Nothing. He rarely even IDs letters unless prompted to, and then he gets as many wrong as he gets right. I haven't tried to see if he can write more letters than he can read. I rather doubt it, but it would be a horse race for sure.

I agree too, but DD5 also learned to read by memorization. Meaning, she doesn't use phonics, but memorizes the word to read later and knows the context.
This was confusing for me because DD8 started reading soon after she knew all the alphabet sounds and can still sound out words and pronounce them right, even if she doesnt' know what it means.
She did well on that psuedowords portion of the WIAT.
DD5, however, didn't really jump on the phonics bandwagon. Someone suggested to me I make flashcards of the Dolch sight words. She quickly memorized those and that's when she began to read at all.
It basically comes down to the fact that their brains work differently and they process differently.
Try the dolch sight words on flashcards. It's one word at a time as opposed to seeing a page with a bunch of words which can be a bit intimidating, ESPECIALLY to a very precocious youngster, IMO.

OTOH: "He rarely even IDs letters unless prompted to,"

if he does have a 2E, I think it's hard to figure that out now, but what do I know. Maybe Debbie has a better idea about that.
Maybe he's just not into learning how to read now. You said 3? At three they are so elusive! You like: Free to be you and me? My DD5 when she was 3: "Free to be me, me, me and it's all about me!! It's not like his mother is stubborn or independent thinking or anything, right?


I

ROFL! I don't know WHAT you're talking about? And I'll continue to stubbornly and independently cling to that denial! tee-hee-hee!

I haven't tried sight words with him. I'll do that.

Seriously, I've hardly "taught" DS3 anything, since I never really had to teach DS6 anything. Even potty training, what I did wasn't appearing to have much effect with DS6 (then just 3yo). I sent him to grandma's house and he came home trained! I was so nervous about training DS3 because I had no clue what I was doing. It worked out fine...mostly because he followed DS6's lead!

I read to DS3 all the time, point out words, have him try to sound things out...but it's not his thing yet. He's more interested than he was a few months ago, but he's still not nearly as into it as his big brother was when he was 2, and DS3 is nearly 4.

I've just been patient, figuring he'll get there when he gets there. Now I'm wondering if it's a failure of imagination on my part. I just haven't appealed to him where he is.

Of course, that assumes I know where he is...or can figure it out...

I'm telling you Kriston!!!!!!!! You are like my twin family!!!!!!! It's freaking me out!!!!!!!!!

DS6 is DD8
DS3 is DD5

Don't forget, both my girls are 99%. Gosh, I really hope I don't have to type that out one more time.
The second ones like to hide and are stubborn like their moms!

I

ROFL!

I'm glad you're there ahead of me so you can keep feeding me the answers. I swear, I feel so clueless with #2!

Shall we set up the kids? DS6 likes older girls, I know. DS3 is in the "I hate girls" phase, but when he gets past that, I suspect he'll like older women, too.

We could share PG grandkids! :p

How fun! If DS3 "hates girls" he'll probably still love C-Dog. She rolls with the boys just as well as with the girls!
We'll have to set up DS6 and DD8 down the road. Right now she is just "tooooo mature" for boys, she is just "so" over it!
Although, you as a mother-in-law would be an exciting prospect for any young lady your son chooses down the road. You should see my train wreck of a monster-in-law.
OMG
I never thought I was crazy mom..........until now! Planning........8yo...........wedding...........I'm losing it!

I

#2's personality... let's just say the pages in the books about emotional excitabilities are almost worn out in this house. I like to describe her as passionate. Ask for a hug and you'll get a kiss... but when she is mad... (apple/tree so i can't complain). her emotional outburst exceed any physical pain cries. her imagination village is amazing but sometimes hard for her to pull out and hear... At pre-school she is doing well with others has some issues not talking when the teacher is but apparently it is worst during "alpha bear" "hi i'm the letter b" (you know where I'm going). I think she'd love k - but the k program at #1's school is all day and doesn't involve freeplay or really play. If it was halfday... but all day of that - maybe she'd be ok but I'd fear I was stealing playtime from her she'll never get back. What I don't know is if she was offered a challenge how she would respond... she writes well (as much as little kids do)... her reading is only ... i have no idea like 70% of a dr. suess maybe... I don't knwo what kids do in K. I've only seen at #1's school and i don't go in often enough to get a clue. i figure i'll go observe some like i did with 1st grades last year. we do need a handwriting camp here though #1's is well not according to the "how-to". should have given her a guide to follow years ago.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I literally snorted when I read this!

You're not crazy--I'm the one who brought up marrying off our kids. (Though you do like me, so there is THAT obvious problem for you to overcome...)

<snort>

Oh, boy, do I hear you on that! That's DS3 to a tee!

We are right there with you! DD3 (#2) is absolutely wearing us out in this arena! She came out of preschool heaving and sobbing today like the world is coming to an end. Because she couldn't get her hat on right.

OMG!!! I do NOT want to set your DD3 and my DS3 up, kimck! The genetics there for the poor grandkids would be AWFUL! That's DS3 EXACTLY! Oh, the wailing, the sorrow...

Sound and fury, signifying NOTHING!

ROFL! You're right! Let's keep these 2 apart. Non-stop drama fest.

Sadly, I think I was exactly this type of child growing up.

See, I wasn't and neither was DH. We are both very practical people.

How did this little genetic wrench get thrown in our works!?!

(I say that, but I wouldn't trade the positive aspects of his passionate nature for anything: his contagious, wild laughter, his loving kisses and cuddles that last forever, his imagination, etc. He's such a fun kid...when I don't feel like wringing his neck! LOL!)

My dd after a frustrating temper tantrum (4 yrs old)

dd: "I hate you" "I wish you were not my mother" "you are the worst mother ever" etc. etc etc. (trying to get a reaction from me)

me: I actually had to laugh. It was funny...

dd: YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO LAUGH (wailing her heart out)... MOTHER'S ARE SUPPOSED TO CRY WHEN THEIR CHILDREN TELL THEM THEY HATE THEM...


I think GT kids just are much more passionate....

Oh Bianc - I am laughing hysterically! That is definitely our world with DD3.5. Similar mind games go on daily around here! Passionate totally nails it. The imagination and wild laughter, etc etc etc. Every day is a rollarcoaster.

DS is a totally level headed practical kid.

Awwww...So funny!



Not my DS6. He has his moments, of course. He's not a robot. But he's the most logical, practical kid ever.

For a logical, practical mom, this worked just great.

And I am nothing if not logical and practical. My DH--who is an engineer, mind you, so he's not Mr. Passionate Emotions himself!--says that I am "only 1s and 0s." He's right. And my mom, who is quite emotional, simply cannot have a disagreement with me. I ask for her reasons, and she can't tell me. If she can enumerate some reasons, I address them logically, and she doesn't know how to argue back to that. It's like we speak different languages. She just has to stop talking to me because I drive her crazy.

So I just don't do drama like my DS3 does. Totally foreign to me!