Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Re-take WISC-IV? Newbie post.

Hello & thanks, in advance, for any advice to this newbie. Apologies for long post.

DS2 was given WISC-IV at school in spring 2010. He was 10 yrs, 5 mos. Testing occurred in sessions over approx 3 weeks and school psych administered.

During the testing period (and for entire year), DS was the subject of bullying, likely due to his young age when compared to classmates. He had originally been grade-skipped from K-1 (at the school�s strong recommendation), but was never given an IQ test nor put in the GT program over the years, despite superior class performance & consistent MAP scores of 98/99% in both reading & math. While DS had many school friends until the end of 3rd grade, his 4th & 5th grade experiences were vastly different. While coping with these school pressures during the testing period, he was also faced with the potentially serious illness of a sibling. It was an extremely intense time in our household and in his young life.

The school psych gave our DS2 a 134 GAI, using his VCI of 144 and his PRI of 117. I do not think he was given the other sections of the WISC IV or, if he was, those sections did not appear on the report. At the time, our school district�s GT cut-off was 130 and I was told more than once that DS �barely made it� into the program since his IQ is �just� 134. This year, our district has raised the GT criteria to 133 and there is serious talk of making it 135, due to budget cuts impacting resources.

So here�s my question: Given that DS was in such a stressful environment last year, both at home and school, and since he is borderline-gifted by our district�s guidelines, should we have him re-tested privately this spring, after the one-year waiting period has passed? Paying for a private test would be difficult but we�re willing to do it if there is a decent chance he could score high enough to stay in the program. My impression was that the district�s testing was rather on-the-fly and DS was removed from class whenever the psych had time for him, so perhaps another setting would yield different results?

This year is going much better for DS. Everyone is healthy & we kept DS in 5th grade to align with children his own age. He is much happier now and has made several friends. He continued on to 6th grade math, where he performs at the top of the class (per his teacher) and bullying has stopped because DS is in advanced math & the bullies aren�t. The GT program has also made a huge difference because that teacher is putting forth so much effort to differentiate for him and make it an enjoyable, productive learning year. (He spends at least an hour a day with her, often two.) If he is not allowed in the program next year, it will be a real disappointment to him. He is only now regaining a positive self-esteem, so I�m also very concerned about how his removal from GT would impact that. And he loves everything about the GT program and the kids in it. He has finally found a place where he �fits.�

Any advice is welcome and appreciated. I suppose re-testing is a given, but cost is a significant factor right now, especially considering that he still might not make the cut-off if given a new test.

Given the discrepancy between the VCI and the PRI, and the fact that the coding and processing portions do not appear to have been administered, you might want to ask the school to assess for possible LDs. Ask in writing. They have to evaluate him. They will almost certainly re-administer the WISC-IV with the previously-omitted sections as part of the evaluation, and if you disagree with their findings, you can request a private evaluation at public expense, which they are obligated to provide unless they feel like taking you to court to prove that their evaluation is correct. BTW, you do not have to give them a reason why you believe that their evaluation is incorrect if you disagree with their findings.

You might find out that there are previously unidentified processing issues there when you get a complete eval, and you might find that there are not, but you and they will have a current and most likely more accurate picture of his functioning, which will certainly be helpful in determining the most appropriate placement for him. And you won't have had to pay for a private eval.

Edit: I firmly believe that that "appropriate placement" is in the gifted program, BTW...he has a VCI of 144, for crying out loud.

Thank you so much for the replies to my post! Here is the info on his WISC-IV report, if that is helpful:
Similarities - 16
Vocab - 19
Comprehension - 17
VCI - 144, 99.8% rank

Block Design - 12
Picture Concept - 12
Matrix Reasoning - 14
PRI 117, 87% rank

GAI - 134, 99% rank

So if his GAI is really 136, Dottie, then that would be great news. I'll have to try to figure out how you arrived at that. In seeing these subtest scores, do you still calculate 136?

I must admit that I was not focused on his scores aside from the fact that he could do the GT program and he has been so happy with it. I only revisited all this when I learned that our district may increase entry score beyond his level. Now I have much to learn & some decisions to make. He is such a happy person now and we'd like to keep it that way.

Whatever his VCI is, he won't be in the program if he doesn't meet the overall cut-off. And, generally, I get the impression that we are on the "outs" for pushing (however politely) to have him tested in the first place. We had to go to our district level before it happened, though we did go thru the proper channels for this. It took almost the entire school year to obtain approval for testing.

Dottie, we are in the Kansas City, KS area, USA.
Aculady, I had never really considered DS to have an LD, but that is food-for-thought. He does well at anything he undertakes and never has had any problems in the academic area of his school career - he was at the top of his class, even with the grade skip, but I may ask about that. I'm clearly not assertive enough in advocating for my kids, as I have learned through this experience

Again, my thanks for your time!

Dottie,

I agree that these scores alone are not screaming red flags, but there is a large discrepancy. If the school is looking to deny him access to a clearly appropriate gifted placement solely on the basis of his past testing,where a point or two could be the difference between getting much-needed services and not, I think it is worth it to investigate the possibility that there may be issues that depressed the lower of the scores, especially when doing so would allow him to retest under better personal circumstances without placing an undue financial burden on the family. I would not mention the latter points to the school. I'd just request an LD evaluation. But that is just my take on it.

Hi Jewel,

I'm new to this forum so can't give much in the way of advice BUT I had to post as my dd's (8) scores were so similar to your DS's:

SI 16
VO 19
CO 17
VCI > 144

BD 11
PCn 16
MR 12
PRI 119

GAI 138

I just wanted to say that we have had the possibility of a learning disability mentioned to us too (by the psych after testing last month). HOWEVER, on the recommendation of the psych we have consulted a gifted educational specialist and her first suggestion was for DD to have a 'developmental eye test', which apparently is very different from a regular assessment. She notes that if the eye test flags up a problem then that will very likely be the cause of such a discrepancy between the verbal and visual scores. We're visiting the optom mid Feb so I'll let you know how we get on. The other issue she mentioned was performance anxiety; DD appears to know that verbal is her strength and has gradually become more 'frightened' of other challenges, and consequently avoids them. Apparently she even ran away from the tester at various points. In effect she fears failure so it's easier not to attempt an answer if you're not 100% sure it is correct. Obviouslyy none of the above may be applicable for your DS, but I just thought I'd mention it in case it might be .
The other ladies in here are so helpful - they've been a godsend for me.
We're meeting with the school on Tuesday to try and sort DD's education to 'fit' her a little better. We've been advised all of her 'issues' have come about due to inadequate schooling. It got so bad she even tried to kill herself a year ago, and now, at eight, she cries for several hours every day. Heartbreaking

I so hope you get somewhere with the school situation. Be confident in your assertions - you know your child much better than any school principal or teacher. Easier said than done, I know - I am truly crap at advocating for DD! Listen to Grinity and Dottie, they're pro's at this .
Hang in there,
K xx

Hi Jewel
Welcome. I'm glad to hear that your family is healthy and less stressed. Dcotties news sounds great too.

Any clue as to why the school didn't put him in the gifted program right off the bat? Plain old predijuice? It just seems so odd.

Anyway I would ask the school to retest and also do achievement testing. If the numbers come back over 145 then I would encourage you to apply to the young scholars program.

Love and more love
Grinity

I appreciate the time everyone is taking to help me - Wow!

Dottie - Your observation that his GAI is 136, instead of 134, checks out with me. This would allow him to stay in the program if the bar moves up again! I cannot thank you enough. I'm just hoping there are no other errors in the report that would then skew back to the 134 (or lower). For example, if DS scored lower on one of the subtest scores and the psych simply made a type-o in listing the scores on the report. However, you rightly point out that there is no 134 GAI. I need to think about how to approach the school on this one. I haven't really set foot back in the office since last year - only the classrooms. Thoughts are welcome & appreciated. And, again, thank you for pointing out this important math error to me!!!!

Grinity - Our school does not begin GT until 3rd grade, but the students must be 8 to be tested and are ID'd by end of 2nd grade (something like that because the whole GT placement process is basically a mystery to the parents - very secretive). Since DS was 7 in 2nd grade (due to skip), it's possible that he was overlooked because he was not age-eligible for testing. However, his 2nd grade teacher did once tell me, "He's very smart, but I doubt he's gifted," so I (wrongly) assumed the case was closed. At the start of 3rd, the GT students are all put in one specific teacher's class and track together, so the other teachers are going to assume any GT students are already in the program (except new students).

Last year, a very kind mom with several GT children at school took me aside and told me that my son was obviously GT and that I needed to advocate for him. I barely knew this lady at the time, but she came out of the blue & was so kind (like all of you posters!). Over the year, I followed all the required steps with this lady's help. During the eval & testing process, the school firmly maintained that DS's grade skip was his "intervention" and no other "intervention" was needed. However, there are a few other students who have been grade-skipped (including a few of this nice lady's kids), it was interesting to note that all those students had been tested & ID'd as GT. (DS was never even tested.) The school insisted that his IEP include the disclaimer that his "intervention" had been grade-skipping. However, because DS received no GT support and had no GT peers in his classes, he wasn't really enjoying school that much (even advanced work is fairly easy for him) and he had fewer & fewer friends with the same interests. If this lady had not come forward to help me, having observed my son over the years, I'm convinced he would have simply repeated 5th grade with no GT support from the school. Or we likely would have had to send him to a private school ($$!), though our district is highly rated and generally out-paces the few private schools in the area.

In hindsight, I know that we've failed him as parents in this key area, but - at the time - I knew nothing about GT and thought the school would surely have ID'd him if there was reason to do so.

I have now signed up DS for Explore test, but he won't be able to take it until Jan 2012! I've also signed him up to take a CTY test, but have to schedule time at the testing center. The school sends home periodic notes to GT kids' parents, so I found out about these tests thru the school.

In all my reading/learning, I'm fairly convinced that DS13 is also GT. The school never ID'd him, either. MAP scores are same as DS2, he's in Duke TIP now (eligible to go to summer camps for ACT score last year but cost is prohibitive) and he took SAT yesterday. So he has done fine w/out GT program. However, it IS a wonderful program (once the child gets in) and it would have been a very nice opportunity for DS13.

Your thoughts/advice are welcome, too. I'm somewhat embarrassed to post because all my learning has shown some serious parental failure and we do actually try hard to be good parents.

Katebee - I'm just now seeing your post and really appreciate the insight! Your DD has obviously had a tough time and I feel for her & you. Your situation sounds more difficult than what we have faced and I do hope things will improve.

Thank you for taking the time to post and the developmental eye test is great info. Your DD's optometrist can administer this? DS has had regular eye check-ups thru the years (he's now over 11), so I wonder if an issue would be flagged in a normal eye exam? He is due for another check-up soon, so I can ask the Dr about that. Our school provided no insight regarding DS's scores, aside from some mentions that he just made the GT cut-off. That was brought up more than once in his IEP meeting, but no other insight. At that time, I didn't even know to ask about a wide variance in VCI & PRI scores.

The general wisdom about our school is "you have one card to play" in all the years you are there. Whether you have 1 child or 6, you still only have one card. So I know we've played our 1 card, but we still have a few children to go! I'm trying to tread very carefully while also keeping DS2's interests in-mind. At least he is doing very well this year, is challenged at math & via GT, and has friends. The hardest part for him was having virtually no friends because he's actually very social, enjoys sports, etc.

If you wouldn't mind posting or PM-ing me about what you thought of the eye development exam, I would appreciate it. And, again, thanks for responding to my post.

Like Dottie said, I'd totally agree that a grade skip doesn't take the place of GT placement. It should be in addition to GT placement for a child who needs more than the in-grade GT class.

In regard to your older ds, it is so easy to feel like we've missed things and failed them. From what I'm seeing with dd12 set to enter high school next year, a GT id isn't so important the older the child gets. Appropriate placement in AP or honors classes isn't always contingent on how the child is ided so much as how his achievement scores look. If your ds13 isn't unhappy or failing to learn, I would try to reassure yourself that you've done the best you could with the info you had at the time.

Jewel,

If your older boy is eligible for the Duke Summer programs, he is also eligible for the online and independent study programs, which are less expensive. It is also worth noting that substantial financial aid is available for all of these options if you apply early.