Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Natl Merit Scholars as High School indicator

Thanks, chenchuan. That's helpful.

Mominsac- if I had to choose, I'd think about some other metrics
1) If they offer AP classes, how many do they offer, and do the classes fit my child's interests?
2) How do the students do on the AP exams -what percentage of the grades are "passing" (or better yet, what percentage are "5s")?
3) Does the school offer arts, sports, clubs, etc. that interest my child?
4) What is the average SAT score (or middle 50%)?
5) How do the students fare in college placement? How is their guidance/college counseling department?

Some of this info may be available on the school profile, which is often on the school's website. I've been able to find some data for basic comparisons in our area using just the schools' profiles. Good luck with the decision.

Assuming demographics are fairly equal...

I think it has to do with what the kids come in with. So in a district where there are a lot at one high school and less at others, a lot of National Merit semifinalists/finalists probably means there is some draw for the gifted/high ability/highly motivated students.

In a district with only one high school, in my opinion, a lot of National Merit semifinalists/finalists means that the district is doing a good job with it's gifted/high ability/highly motivated students *before* they get to high school.

A case in point: We live in one of two top ranked districts (in terms of state test scores) in our state. The two districts have almost identical demographics, including number of students in the high school (each district has a single high school). One district consistently has 10-15 National Merit semifinalists/finalists and the other has less than five. Last year there was one. The district with the 10-15 National Merit semifinalists/finalists just happens to have a gifted program that starts in elementary school. The other district not only doesn't have a gifted program, it actively stonewalls any attempt at acceleration.

When my older daughter was about to enter high school, we have a choice of IB or AP school. I did a lot work to try to compare them with pros and cons, etc. I was not able to arrive a clear cut winner.

My daughter then 'shadowed' in both schools, following a HS senior for one day to various classes. Her decision came quickly after that. Not so much because of IB or AP. One has newer campus, shadow program was well organized and it was sunny day. The other one has an older campus, shadow program was a mess and it was a raining, miserable day. So guess what her choice is.

I finally had a chance to check online...thank you, everyone, for sharing your thoughts and observations! My OP had many issues embedded - NMSP as indicator, IB vs. AP, gifted vs high achievement � so I appreciate the various thoughts.

Twomoose, thanks for offering some key questions for me to consider:

Of the two local HSs we would consider both in same district, HS w/AP (12 offered), HS w/IB:

1) IB school has clearly higher average SATs, but again, as with the NMSP finalists, this may be more a function of its magnate status attracting the area higher achieving kids.
2) Socioeconomically, the IB school is more diverse, as it offers plenty of non-IB programs that may be considered lower end of the academic spectrum, the neighborhood is very mixed, and the IB is a magnate attracting high-achievers from wide tri-county area.
3) I should look at the AP scores, and better understand the college placements for both HSs (are such info public?). I only know anecdotally: �colleges only choose certain number of kids from each HS, so harder to get into choice colleges if one attended IB HS with its concentration of highly motivated achievers�, �despite all the work, xyz student doing IB didn�t get into any choice schools�, �xyz student at the AP school still got into some top schools etc so didn�t matter if he/she didn�t go the IB route� etc etc....

In addition:
1) I�ve been on the e-mail distributions for both HSs monthly newsletter, to get a �pulse� of what goes on in both high schools � the IB HS seems more active in offering additional academic services, related to college, etc....
2) The IB HS has more academic club offerings (debate, science olympiad, sci Bowl, History Bowl, etc etc the list goes on.) The AP HS, unfortunately, not as many.
3) The AP HS (for that matter other HSs in the area including privates in the area), with its more homogenous and advantaged student population, has more team sport offerings, but the two sports of our interests, swimming and tennis, the IB HS has decent teams. (both DDs swim year-around at club level, so not sure if it will matter to them greatly or not whether the HS team is good or not...)
4) IB HS has a far superior arts/studio arts program (which is one of my DDs passion), but IB Art seems like a LOT of work. (great if you don�t have the other courseload!) From what I gather, the AP HS has very little Art offering.
5) I�ve also heard that the IB curriculum is more humanistic and less science/math oriented, but in our �Local� region, the IB HS has the stronger science/math program producing the science award-winning type students. In fact, I called the AP HS to inquire about their math program since I noted they had no math offerings beyond Calculus BC, and my DDs would be on track to complete that by their Junior year.....I was told by the guidance counselor that they highly recommended students to re-take Algebra 2 in HS (!)

So, these are the information specific to our local HSs that I�m grappling with right now....that's why I was interested in hearing others observation about the correlation between the HS programs and NMSP finalists, knowing that, of course, specifics of the situation will impact the outcome...

I welcome any other correlation observations. thanks!

Kai, this is very interesting showing some correlation between gifted education and NMSP results..Our District has a very good gifted program, identifying the top students starting in 2nd and offering self-contained GATE classes at 3 of the district elementary schools. The program and teachers have been excellent. Many of those kids feed into the IB middle school, and probably 1/2 of those kids feed into the IB HS.

adhoc, I hear this alot regarding the IB curriculum, and is my biggest concern...

CFK � I agree with you, that is one positive about the AP route (in our local situation anyway), since we would eventually hit a wall at the HS and so we would have to seek local university or cc courses. I don�t think one would have that flexibility with the IB.

chenchuan, thanks for your reference to CC links. I have looked at those IB vs AP debate with interest. So I am curious, which did your daughter choose, and any revelations looking back at the decision?

Hi mominsac,

My older daughter went to the public school that offers AP classes. It turns out to be a good fit for her. She came out as the school valedictorian with 11 APs under her belt (plus several college classes). However, she did not try to get college credits for this AP classes except place out of foreign language requirement.

chenchuan,
That's a fantastic success story and congratulations! It truly worked out for your daughter. 11 AP classes sounds like a lot, plus college classes - I presume she must have worked very hard!

I'm also inclined, at least for now, to look at the IB vs. AP, purely from the angle of their academic content and merit, college/life preparation, and flexibility -- not for the objective of gaining college credits.

Back to our specific situation, I would be inclined to choose the HS with more NMSP finalists if it was not IB. Because it is IB, I need to weigh the IB vs AP little more, given that IB is a total curriculum program with specific requirements...

Thanks mominsac for kind words.

By judging the two schools in our school district which offers IB and AP with metrics like average SAT score, number of NMS semi-finalists, number of kids go on to UC Berkeley, the number of kids go on to Ives + Stanford + MIT, the two programs are pretty evenly matched. You can find successful stories to back up either side. Admitted that it is very small sample pool but I did not see any evidence to support that IB is far superior than AP.

The discrepancy of NMS semi-finalists that you saw in your school district's two schools is probably due to student self-selection. More often than not is that good students make good schools rather than the other way around.