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    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
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    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Eta: I was partially homeschooled, but I'm on the fence. I probably won't homeschool my kid's. But it's an option. My nephew will be homeschooled. Sorry Mrs. Jane Smith for derailing your thread with my own personal embarrassing train wreck here. *blushing brighter with a super embarrassed grin*


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    I just now tripped over my own tongue saying I don't believe the same as your core beliefs because you're a Christian and a homeschooler...

    Emm. I'm basically atheist and my kids aren't homeschooled.

    Think it's time to kill this thread. PM me if you have any other questions!

    smile

    Val

    Last edited by Val; 12/29/10 04:02 PM.
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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    Open mouth. Insert foot. Yuck! not again?

    Since this was my most recent fumble in front of the whole school I dug it back up just to post this great link about Shame and fear and connection. So, it's nothing like a piano lesson. http://giftedforlife.com/1506/but-im-not-good-enough/


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
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    I saw this on another list today. Seems to address a number of issues running through this thread.

    WSJ article on parenting called "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior"

    Last edited by kaibab; 01/08/11 08:44 AM.
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    Thank you for posting this. I particularly liked the summary:

    "There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.

    Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away."

    I also believe, and have posted my opinions, that with a more and more competitive world, you have to be more of a "Chinese" parent just to give your child options in the world.

    I push DD on pieces, when she is first learning, not insulting but strict and demanding. And when she can get over the hurdle and play it, she will go to the piano and play it and play it and loves to play it at the recital or concert (she has started to play concerts). But getting over the hurdle of learning a difficult piece almost kills me. There is usually a fight. But there was a fight on the skating rink last night. She has been wanting to "skate". I told her it was a difficult sport in NYC but I would teach her and she would have to cooperate with working on technique just like in piano or ballet or gymnastics. She got angry with me as I started to work with her. There was much falling (though she had her leg warmers pulled up over her knees and nylon pants over that). I told her that I fell so much during practice with just tights on before I could do a jump properly. But she got to the other side, the technique improved, she got excited at her improvement. But there was a tantrum, angry words (from her) before the mid-point.

    Now my child can do crossovers and a pretty good side stop and feels very proud of herself.

    Ren


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    WSJ article would be funny if it is not actually pretty accurate. I don't know whether to cry or to laugh.

    My daughter wrote an essay on the same topic in high school, echoing some of same observations. Here it is, for the kick.

    ========================

    How to be a perfect Chinese-American kid

    By Yiren L (age 14)

    THERE are many inside jokes circulating around the Chinese-American community, but one is particularly relevant, and in a way, bitterly funny.

    "To be a perfect Chinese-American kid," it goes, "you must score 2,400 on the SAT; apply to and be accepted by 27 colleges, all of them in the top parameters of the annual US News & World Report rankings; and win enough scholarships to pay for it. Have three hobbies: math, piano, and more math; love classical music and detest talking on the phone; and lastly, accept your parents' unfortunate fashion choices with enthusiasm."

    The joke reflects the fact that lofty aspirations have become a standard expectation, and of course, it reinforces the stereotype of the corkscrew glasses wearing, eternally studying, and no social life-ing Chinese American dork, who, to the dismay of his former tormentors, ends up becoming an Internet billionaire by the age of 25.

    It's a rather uglifying stereotype, except for the billionaire part. But as the saying goes, a stereotype isn't a stereotype if it is not at least partially true.

    It was back in the 1980s when Chinese-Americans first began entering elite institutions like Harvard, Princeton and Stanford in mammoth numbers that the mainstream USA realized the scope of their academic excellence.

    In other words, they noticed that "Hey, Chinese kids are really smart."

    Everyone from talk-show hosts to Popular Mechanics Magazine was fascinated by the supposedly new phenomenon. They tried to pinpoint its origins, bottle it, harness it, find that magical elixir that seemed to take every fresh off-the-boat Chinese immigrant and stuff his mailbox with big fat acceptance envelopes.

    It seemed like every family with a last name of Wong had three sons who were top of their class at Harvard, or three model daughters with perfect moon-pie faces and GPAs in the 5.0 range.

    Piano competitions became a wide swath of Asian territory, dominated by little musical prodigies with black hair and cheeky barrettes. California MATHCOUNTS state top-10 finals were inevitably dominated by 7th and 8th grade Chinese boys in bowl cuts and corduroys, scribbling answers to impossible math problems, their proud parents answering congratulations with the usual Chinese humility, "No, no, he's lazy, doesn't like to study at all, always wants to watch television, play with his friends."

    Of course, watching TV and hanging out with your buddies are two entirely unacceptable pastimes in the Chinese American culture, except under certain circumstances when you're watching a documentary about Napoleon Bonaparte on the History Channel, or studying for the Academic Decathlon.

    And then there's the unavoidable competition.

    The science test results are always succeeded by an interrogation regarding the scores of the top students in the class. Course grades are eagerly compared among anxious Chinese parents. "What about this girl," they ask. "How did she do?"

    Chinese-American kids are expected to maintain up-to-date records on everyone's SAT I, SAT II, and AP grades.

    An awful lot of articles have been written about the "infamous" Chinese-American overachievers. An awful lot of words have been spent denying it.

    You can debate endlessly about whether these seemingly impossible expectations actually help or hurt these Chinese kids. It's probably both.

    The pressure and the competition and the stereotypes are unavoidable as a Chinese American kid. It comes with the territory.

    I, for one, have learned to embrace it.

    No other parents are as supportive and dedicated when it comes to education as Chinese parents.

    No other culture gives more chances for inside jokes and hysterical anecdotes.

    And when you look at people like Jerry Yang, the founder of Yahoo, and Steve Chan, the founder of YouTube, or the legions of lawyers, scientists, doctors, and musicians, who made it alive through the gauntlet process, and who are living extraordinarily happy and successful lives, it's hard not to be convinced that maybe there's something right in Chinese-American parenting styles.


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    A business partner - 1st generation Chinese-American - forwarded me that article this morning, saying that it could have been written by either his mother... or his wife. While I don't know his mom that well, I do agree about his wife. And I know how my partner turned out. As did his kids. Wow.

    As I read the article, I alternated between shocked, amazed & horrified. I thought of this recent thread and thought a link to this article would be a nice little addition. Definitely makes me look like a gosh-darn little fairy god mother in comparison.

    I laughed out loud a couple of times while reading. First, when Chuan rattled off her checklist of things her children are *not* allowed to do:
    � attend a sleepover
    � have a playdate
    � be in a school play
    (I wonder how she reacted to the suicide in Dead Poets Society?)
    � watch TV or play computer games
    � choose their own extracurricular activities
    � get any grade less than an A
    � not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
    � play any instrument other than the piano or violin

    Ha! Just this week, DS violated just about every one of her rules, yet seems no worse for wear. Heck, he spent five hours playing in the woods yesterday, hunting for reptiles and insects and climbing trees. (The horror!)

    My second fit of laughter came at the end of the article... you wanna know how to really and truly cause fits & hair-pulling in a Chinese Mother?

    Simple.

    Just tell her that your profoundly-gifted 7yo learned "Little White Donkey" in about a week, practicing only 20 minutes per day, and only five days in that week... having easily spent more time than that playing computer games. And that he's the top of his class in everything *including* gym with very little, if any effort required... despite being grade-accelerated twice.

    I've never used the dreaded P.G. term with anyone in real life, and would certainly never rattle off DS's accomplishments like this, but I'd be more than happy to share with an Amy Chuan type any day, just to see the rage burn in her eyes. Although... I suppose I'd feel awfully sorry for what her kids would suffer as a result: "You know what that little Western boy does? Do you? Well, DO YOU!?!?!? GET BACK TO YOUR PIANO NOW!"

    I will admit, I've occasionally wondered what my son could accomplish if I forced hours upon hours of practice & homework... but I really & truly love it when he comes home from a day-long adventure in the woods that would make Calvin & Hobbes proud.


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    I graduated from Harvard Medical School with Honors. That was the first time I encountered "the perfect Asian student." On the one hand, these students were very organized and worked incredibly hard. On the other hand, many made mediocre or even poor doctors since they had rote-memorized many things, yet many were unable to apply the knowledge in the flexible fashion you need to be a great doctor.
    Now that I have kids, I do try to make sure they have their math facts down cold, "like the asian kids." Many of them do the rote-memorization Kumon prep, which we avoid, since I don't want my kids to lose that flexible thinking. FYI...

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    <My second fit of laughter came at the end of the article... you wanna know how to really and truly cause fits & hair-pulling in a Chinese Mother?

    Simple.

    Just tell her that your profoundly-gifted 7yo learned "Little White Donkey" in about a week, practicing only 20 minutes per day, and only five days in that week... having easily spent more time than that playing computer games. And that he's the top of his class in everything *including* gym with very little, if any effort required... despite being grade-accelerated twice.>

    The type of Chinese mother you seem to be imagining would simply reply, 'And think what he could accomplish if he actually put forth some effort!'

    I think you're missing one of the main points of the piece. It seems to me that at least one of the primary goals the (stereotypical) Chinese parents described in the article have for their children has both great moral virtue and great practical value: they want their kids to learn how to work hard, and learn the satisfaction, even joy, that comes of working hard at something.

    Though I'm a 'Western' parent, my approach to child-raising is very similar to what Amy Chua (not Chuan) describes. There are two main reasons:

    First, my son is a perfectionist. If he has trouble at the beginning of a learning process, he still, at age 11, tends to give up. I don't let him. So just yesterday, we had a scene at the piano that was similar to the one in Chua's article (though shorter and less intense). What would my son's approach to school, or topics he's interested in, or life in general, be if I hadn't started doing this years ago? I shudder to think.

    And the benefits, to him, of learning persistence do not stop at being able to stick with something difficult. When he masters something that he previously thought was impossible, he radiates joy. So there is a huge emotional payoff -- his self-esteem, to bring up a primary concern of (stereotypical) Western parents, is in much better shape than it would be if I had let him shy away from challenge.

    Second, everything came as easily to me when I was young as it seems to for your child. I don't remember having to work hard to earn great grades in school, or get high scores on standardized tests. As a result, I had a nasty shock in some college courses and in grad school when I was confronted with the necessity of really stretching my intellectual ability, whether in reading, seminar discussion or writing papers.

    There's also a more selfish reason why I approve of the Eastern approach -- I teach at my kids' school, which has families from over two dozen countries, including many from South and East Asia. Their children are a joy to teach: eager for challenge, with huge banks of prior knowledge and unending curiosity about the subject. They really keep me on my toes!


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    Dandy, I agree with hip about the shock when I learned the habit of not applying myself. I could still get through college math without the work but I didn't learn anything. Dandy, you are not doing your child any favors.

    DD is across the hall on a playdate now. I am not so strict that she cannot do it. But she did piano this morning and then ballet class, lunch and then finished her piano practice before playdate. She committed herself to this concert of contemporary composers and she is going to do the work (yes, she is only 6 but she was asked to perform and she said yes)

    I had a talk with DD at bed last night. I told her that dad and I are "mean" because we want her to have options when she is 20. We will make her practice piano, and apply herself in other areas and demand good manners (she went to a manners dinner at the Harvard club and I would do it again 4X a year) so that she can do anything she wants.

    My parents came from Europe after WW2 and all they had was their education to rebuild from scratch. Just like all the Jewish doctors after WW2 because those parents came with nothing and "drilled" it into their kids to get an education -- they were the Chinese parents a generation ago.

    I think if you come from a family where real difficulty or tragedy, like a war, has not hit your home and you have lost everything, then you can cater to an attitude that you are being cruel to your children. The question yet to be answered, who is really being cruel to their chilren? The "chinese" style parent that gives their child options (the option to do nothing and write poetry under a tree is always available after you are 21) or the parent who hopes that their graduate will somehow find his way and a job and out of your home before he reaches 30.

    Ren

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