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    #8761 02/13/08 09:22 AM
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    I hear there has been a new technical report issued by Harcourt Brace with a new norming sample for gifted(?). I believe it has something to do with a request from NAGC?
    Something to do with children scoring at 18 or 19 on two or more subtest earning more points.

    Does anyone(and by anyone I mean anyone but most especially Dottie?) know anything about this.

    Will this affect children taking the test going forward or is my child's test re-scored?

    Thanks,
    I

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    Interesting. Our DS8 earned two 19s and two 18s on the subtests. I wonder how this would impact the interpretation of his test report, given that it was written 3-4 months ago.

    Tara

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    Tara,

    If you have the raw scores, you can recalculate his final score. But if you don't have the raw scores, you can't do it with just the 18 or 19 numbers. Perhaps you could ask your tester to send you the numbers or you could ask him/her to recalculate the final score based on this update.


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    Dottie,
    Well my DS does have some 19's and we did have the raw scores,so I recalculated but his score didn't change at all.

    Agree with Dottie about the reserved issue on Vocab. I had encouraged him to stay focused and not share everything he was thinking--only later did I find out that he could have gotten more "bonus points" if he had given more detailed answers. I just didn't want him to talk the tester's ear off!

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    Hey everybody!

    DD8 had two 19's and one 18. I did shoot the tester an e-mail asking if this changed her score, but I figured I might get a quicker answer from you all on the board.
    Based on what you are saying it doesn't seem it would change her score, but I was never given a GAI score for her, just FSIQ.
    One of her topped out scores was in processing speed, the other two in the Perceptual Reasoning Index.
    I will post if I find out if it changes her score.
    This seems to be a good thing, though. I hope it clarifies things for those that are seemingly unmeasurable using that test.

    Dottie, that seemed surprising to me as well. None of them obtained a FSIQ of 150 or higher? That's odd. Has anyone obtained a 160 on the WISC-IV? I've read recent postings of about 150-152, I believe. Interesting............

    Incog

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    I kind of get what you are saying. So my question is, we all think of an extreme IQ score is anywhere above 155, or at least I do. Did anyone score there on the new WISC? If not, what is the new extreme score? is it 145?
    Do I care?
    Yes, because my DD8 FSIQ is 148 on WISC-IV and the school is going to say, "It's not like she has an IQ in the 150's or 160's or anything!"

    Let's get a perspective on what the scores for this test mean, so the educational system doesn't underestimate these kids' needs based on the old SB's number scale.
    And maybe someone has evidence that shows, yeah, those kids that were getting 170's on the SB are still getting 160 on WISC-IV, but I haven't seen it. On the contrary, the norming sample seems to indicate the number would come in lower.

    Does that make sense?

    Or am I borrowing trouble.

    Incog

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    Dottie, our posts cross, I am going to PM you with that info.

    Incog

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    So, did they score above 150, then?

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    Yes, but comparatively, what does that 150 score from WISC-IV mean? I know there's no perfect translation.
    But what does it do to that 1 in 1000, 1 in 10,000 way of putting things in perspective with the numbers?
    It can't be the same can it? Sounds like there are a lot less children that would score 160 on the WISC-IV as compared to previous tests.
    Yes? No?

    I

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    Am I annoying everyone yet?

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    don't think the WISC-IV can discern 1:1000 from 1:10,000 if that is what you are asking. I don't think it could before, and I don't think it can now, with this change.


    Yes, this is the question, thanks for answering.

    I

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    You're not annoying me! I'm reading every word with interest! I have no comments of my own to add, but I have great interest in the conversation.

    K-


    Kriston
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    I wonder if this Technical Report is related to this article http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/newiqtests.htm

    See recommendation 13.

    I wonder if they will be doing the same for the SB5, as well.

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    Good points, all.

    I feel that if the new norming study drastically changes how any previous WISC-IV scores are viewed, then the entire test should be revised. Maybe the new norming study should apply to a WISC-V so that there is no confusion.

    Can you see any of us explaining to some GT administrator, "my kid's 148 score really IS in the 99.9th percentile, because he took the test before a certain norming study was released"? Huh??

    Tara

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    I know. I was also wondering if any testers sort of slack off once they know that a kid has reached the top score for their age. Since it's never made a difference once you hit 19, why should they try for a higher raw score before the report was issued? Maybe that's cynical, but I did wonder.

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    Originally Posted by Dottie
    I wouldn't be surprised if they slacked off before that. Oh, little Johnny is twitching in his seat. He must be at the frustration point..."It's okay if you can't answer any more Johnny, you did quite well!"


    I know you moderated this in your later post, Dottie, but I just wanted to sneak in to say that I think this is the reason to be very clear about your goals for a test AND to see a tester experienced with GT testing.

    We informed our tester that we thought DS6 might be a Davidson candidate, so she knew to take him as far as he could go.

    Of course, if he hadn't had the achievement test scores first, we wouldn't have known to ask for this...and if you're testing to find out where the child is, you CAN'T really ask for this...

    There is a certain irony to it, I'll admit! smile frown


    Kriston
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    Originally Posted by Dottie
    The university psych couldn't even get his mind around the DYS requirements. He strongly felt the test couldn't discern that high.


    I strongly agree with him!

    ...and we've come back around to the start of this thread!

    <grin>


    Kriston
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    I wonder if the same thing will happen for the SB-5. My son had 4 of the 19s and one 18. Our tester did write in the report that my son had received higher raw scores than required for the 19 in two of the subtests and with a different test his scores might be higher.


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    OOOOOHHHHHHH WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

    I created a hot topic!!

    smile

    Incog

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    Girl-FRIEND! You are a hot topic!

    wink


    Kriston
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    Regarding the possibility that testers don't expect to see 19, so quit before they get there - it's a time honored idea in science that the preconcieved notions of the observer will effect what is observed, even with the best of intentions. ((This Confirmation Bias applys to us also - sadly))

    My son has had a few tests, and the problem I see is that it takes so long to get to the questions with the 17+ scores on them. I hear comments over and over about the process taking 3 times longer than they expected. And also the comment about he made more mistakes during the easy boring questions early on. I also got comments about him "not allowing" the tester to stop in what appeared to be an anxious way. Never thought that perhaps he was reading their social cues for him to stop, and reacting to keep them at it. Maybe 19s are for the stupporn and obnoxious? ((Sorry if you have compliant kids with 19, reader!))

    Makes me wonder if they had read the previous reports before they dove in...and if kids like him are being discriminated against in that they have to sit for three times longer than their agemates...KWIM?


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    This is all very interesting. My reports are probably squished into a corner of my desk somewhere, as I have taken them apart to copy for DITD and don't think I ever got around to stapling them back together. I was a thinking the other day that I should take more care with them. I have no idea if I ever was given a GAI for oldest ds, and I know they did not give me all the subtest info. My two middle kids do have GAIs well above that 150, so maybe their numbers will change.

    I have mixed feelings about this. I agree that it is a nice effort to discern the higher ability kids, but it also further muddies the waters as far as program cut offs and public perception goes. There are so many variables!

    What IS the real difference between a subtest score of 18 and a subtest score of 19? Why don't they throw out all the old tests and come up with something new?

    As an example of how hard it can be to know what a number means, a couple days ago, someone told me that their daughter had an IQ of 160. I asked her what instrument was used to test her, and the parent didn't actually know! The girl is a young adult now, and was tested before she could read, so it is quite possible that it was the LM. The implication for an SBLM score of 160 is vastly different from the implication of the same score on a Wechsler.






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    LOL, and if we armchair psychs are confused, the average layperson doesn't have a chance! Never mind apples to apples, we can't even talk apples to kumquats or bananas to passionfruit!

    I am looking at page one of the technical report. It looks like this boy had a full scale IQ of 158 with GAI of 160, and they changed these to 192 full scale and 208 GAI. I'm curious as to whether they are trying to make the scores line up with the old SBLM. I haven't looked through the whole report yet- do they include any data from the LM? I know that Linda Silverman likes the LM and I believe this boy came from her data. If I use my son's GAI (I still haven't looked for the subtest pages) and assume that it will change according to the table on page 16, then his new extended score is just a handful of points lower than his LM score.

    I told ds 11 his score a few years ago when he asked. Previously, I'd drawn a bell curve and explained where he is on that. We talked about different tests measuring slightly different skills and the idea of a test score being just a snapshot of performance on a given day. He would never talk about this stuff with his friends. DD hasn't really been curious yet, though of course she was aware that she scored high enough for DITD.

    Blah... have to go wash the dishes! Hey, BTW, I am deep cleaning the house for my Bright Minds Party on Monday night. If anyone wants to order (they do all those cool critical thinking workbooks, Greek and Latin roots, and more, for preschool through high school) please send me a pm with your email. I can send you to my Bright Minds rep's web site, and you can mention that it's for my party. I'll pick up your shipping costs.

    Shameless, I know, but I am starting to get desperate! I have only two confirmed guests and a handful of maybes. I never should have planned this for the winter- nobody wants to go out at night! I really love the products though, and my kids do too.

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    Dottie,
    Time to go brew a nice cup of herbal tea, find a quiet spot (I know 3 kids...) and read anything not related to gifted, education or legislation for at least 30 minutes. smile

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    Hi, Dottie,

    I know you love this stuff, and I've been busy and away from the action over here. So I looked at the report and I have all the raw and scaled scores for DS. The thing is, I don't know which ones to include in any recalculation. For instance, there are subtests in parentheses. I know those are optional. Do they go into the calculation? (information and word reasoning in vci and picture completion in PRI)

    I know they don't go into the calculation of the GAI - that's just the sum of similarities, vocabulary, comprehension, block design (just one of the two, right?), picutre concepts and matrix reasoning. I don't think DS's score will move, but it's fun playing the game.

    Thanks!


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    I think they have just opened a can of worms. My dd's scores went up for the PRI score by 6 IQ points and her FSIQ went up by 3 points. However, All it still tells me is that she is in the >99.9%. I already knew that.

    Also, when my dd was tested the psychologist stopped when my dd "had gone far enough and had already hit the subtest ceiling". If these new score norms had been available she would have gone further.

    I guess I just don't feel I have gained any more information.



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    Actually my dd's 18 did change but one of her 19's didn't.

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    It does say on page 2 that "Dr. Linda Silverman of NAGC also provided two cases categorized as extremely gifted to beta test the extended norms" so I took that to mean that KO was a real boy.

    I have to catch up on this thread, then I'll see if I have anything else to add!


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    Originally Posted by Dottie
    Of course I was curious, and did question her mom...

    Me: "BF was quoting quite the high IQ the other day"
    BFmom: "Yes, it's 157, can you believe it?"
    Me: "Wow, you might have some school issues on your hands, was that on the WISC-IV?"
    BFmom: "Yes"

    I watched this kid VERY closely for weeks afterward, and couldn't make any sense of it. Later I overheard her talking with another mom about a big "discrepancy" between scores. I'm quite certain in hindsight that her 157 was on the Slosson screener, that in the hands of an inexperienced school counselor has been known to overinflate (most of 70 or so 130+ scores did not test 130 on the WISC, including at least one score in the 150's!) I can only guess her WISC was more "down to earth" gifted.

    Hmmm...the Slosson is a state approved screener. Maybe in my "fight" with the school I should request that for DD. LOL! Honestly, I really don't want to go there. I'm just ready for a WISC at this point. It's tempting, though.

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    Interesting...although I didn't read through the link. DD scored 19's in 2 subtests, both in verbal comprehension; Similiarities and Vocabulary. She had 18's in Letter numbering sequencing and Picture concepts. I have no idea if this alters anything with her overall score. Later tonight I'll try and read through that link! lol.

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    Hello all,

    I have been reading this thread and I am not even close to an expert on how this stuff is scored, but my daughter at 8 years, 3 months scored 18's on all 3 of her VCI subtests. After reading the technical report #7 and looking at her scores, it seems that her raw score of 32 in similarities is a 19 according to the report. Does this appear to be right and how would this affect overall FSIQ score and VCI score? She has a VCI of 148 and a FSIQ of 144 currently.

    Thanks for any input on clearing this up.

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    Got it, thanks for the very clear explanation. It looks like we have a 159, so the total score isn't going to move. I think we have all the numbers we need to advocate properly. If we apply to DYS, hopefully the VCI score will be enough. We are waiting on Achievement scores this week.

    Thanks again, your information was very helpful.

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    We received our WJ III scores and DD9 was scored as grade 4.6 with a total achievement of 137. She was grade accelerated and did not go to 3rd grade, so I wonder if this hurt her score on this test. Any thoughts? I am not sure it is worth applying to DYS without the necessary score.

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    Did she hit 145 on any of the other 3 applicable scores? (Broad Reading, Writing or Math.)

    Total Achievement isn't the only one that they accept.


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    Dottie - I was just getting ready to ask you if you'd gotten your scores yet. Is the 6 weeks almost up???

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    Are they going to do this with the WPPSI-III as well? My son had three 18's and a 19.

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    We got a second set of scores for the WJ III today based on her age. She got a 142 Total achievement, but no necessary scores of 145+, so she is close but not there on this test. We did not do the EXPLORE test, it is not offered where we are. I will have to evaluate whether it is worth the effort to apply to DYS or not, but either way, we have ammunition for advocating on her behalf in the future. Our grade skip has been very successful and she is extremely happy.

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    And you checked the other 3 relevant scores, right? No 145s there either?


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    All low 140's and high 130's. Close but no cigar.

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    I'm no expert, so I'll let the experts advise you. It does seem unfair that scores THAT amazingly high are too low, but there it is...

    I'm glad the grade skip is working and that you have some good ammo for the future. Don't give up. Scores on future tests might work for DYS, so it's worth keeping it in mind even if you don't immediately try to test again.

    smile


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    Hi NNNgoose,
    So glad to hear about the gradeskip working well. It would be nice to have those DYS scores, and I don't doubt that she'll get them some day, but for now the key thing is that she has learned that one has to 'work a bit' in order to learn. I hope she is happy academically and socially. Are you going to consider the private school for 5th grade?

    Smiles,
    Grinity


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    Hey there-

    I emailed the psychologist who tested my kids, asking her if she could provide the raw scores for their WISCs. She actually had already gone through her high scorers and figured the extended scores, so was happy to send me the changes. Scores for both my son and daughter went up, though it was actually much more dramatic in my son's case. This was interesting, as their full scales had been almost identical, and now they are six points apart. My son's GAI went way up too, so it is now 13 points over my daughter's.





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    FWIW, I think these two kids are VERY close in overall intelligence. The difference highlighted by this extension seems to me to be basically the difference between my extroverted, people pleaser and my introverted perfectionist. I think Grinity said something about motivation and endurance and test ceilings a while ago, and I do believe parents should consider these factors too. Compliant kids might have slightly higher numbers but that doesn't mean that the non-compliant kids are any less brilliant...

    Am I making any sense?

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    LOL! Yes, you would, Dottie! And I would, indeed, say that!


    Kriston
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    Yes, my son is the extroverted people pleaser, my daughter is more into doing what she wants to do, and she has perfectionist tendencies.

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    I just got a note back from the person who tested our son with the WISC last fall with updated results using the new scoring. His results increased somewhat in several subtests, and his VCI went up 12 points. I'm glad I emailed her. She's going to send me an updated/recalculated test report.

    Tara

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    ooh! I am envious of the new report! I felt fortunate enough to get the email without being charged; a new report wasn't even on my radar!

    very impressive change, too, Tara.

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    Although WISC-IV has been replaced with WISC-V, for anyone looking for the old WISC-IV Report 7, the updated link is:


    This is also linked from Hoagies' Gifted Education Page:
    https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/testing.htm

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