Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    1 members (aeh), 251 guests, and 21 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 435
    T
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    T
    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 435
    Hi All,

    Some of you may already know my DD4's story and have already offered support and advice, but here I am again, still unsure.

    My DD4 is like many of the little ones on here: she spoke very early, read very early (well before three years old), did math early, asked outrageously advanced questions early, remembered things and learned at a frightening level and the "usual" (ha ha this is the only place I can call these things usual). Also, like some children on here, but unlike others, she is very, very intense.

    Now I know about over-excitabilities and how giftedness can look like ADHD etc. but I am still not sure where to turn. We actually had her assessed by an OT and she is beginning services for what appears to be sensory-seeking, but we have not received a report yet and they do not give a diagnosis. I am still wondering how much is sensory related and if that stands alone or is attached to something else like ADHD etc.

    She is funny, verbal, creative, and artistic, but some challenging traits are that she is impulsive, defiant, intense, grabby (wants to touch and throw everything), craves stimulation, seems to be talking a mile a minute every waking moment, etc.

    She can sit and focus on books, drawing, coloring, and Playdough for extended period. She has sat for the ballet and performances because she is interested in the show.

    She seems to get over-excited around other kids, esp, around littler ones: she regresses and acts sillier, louder, and more immature than they do. It is hard to advocate for your gifted child if she is acting like a clown and trying to talk in babytalk when she can read and speak in a very sophisticated way. I am all for her being a silly kid and acting goofy, but she often lets the wild woman out of the bag at the wrong times.

    She is extroverted and loves other kids, but gets over-excited sometimes and loses control of her senses. At that point, she makes bad decisions. She likes to rile other kids up and is good at it! She is highly emotional, and dramatic.

    Yeah, I love this kid, but she is tiring for a stay at home mom who had kids late in life and has a two year old who is also a fireball.

    Please pepper me with any questions if you have any thoughts. All feedback appreciated.

    thanks.

    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Hi Twinkletoes,

    Hyperfocus on areas of interest and general need for massive stimulation could be ADHD, predominantly impulsive type. Or, as you note, giftedness.

    If all this is intrusive on daily functioning and happiness (sounds like it is...) then you might want to get an evaluation by a developmental pediatrician or a neuropsych.

    FWIW, in our family's experience, OTs tend to overattribute to sensory issues things that may or may not be sensory in origin. We have never had success in approaching things from that angle.

    HTH,
    DeeDee

    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 465
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 465
    Twinkle Toes,

    Your DD sounds almost exactly like my DD7 with the exception that my DD has not shown any real giftedness except in art. I wish I had an answer. We are seeking out some way to help her regulate better as the older she gets the less tolerant others become of these intense behaviors. FWIW we tried ADHD meds this summer and it was not effective in our case. She has been in therapy all summer also to help see if we could tame things down a bit. In two weeks she goes to a psychiatrist to be evaluated as well. I will let you know if I find out anything of value - which of course may or may not apply to your DD. In the meantime - I empathize with you wholeheartedly!

    Breakaway

    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 435
    T
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    T
    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 435
    thanks, just to add on, she seems very happy overall, but has blips of anger or frustration that are short lived yet very intense, and it doesn't interfere with her ability to do well in school (so far) or sit at story-time etc. but when there is singing and action and so on, her behavior can go over the top and can disturb others and her intensity can be difficult on her parents / grandparents and teachers other parents and even some sensitive children. Many people actually are not bothered and think she is adorable and funny (which she is) but I do worry about how this will play out over time.

    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Twinkletoes, my feeling is, even if she's happy as a clam, if her behavior's wearing out dedicated parents and hurting other people's feelings, it should be worked on, and having help in this is better than not.

    Some people feel this approach is pathologizing children with whom nothing is seriously wrong; but taking this route has vastly improved the quality of our DS's life and ours.

    YMMV.
    DeeDee

    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 119
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 119
    I was starting to get the "ADHD" comments so I took out the book:

    Misdiagnosis And Dual Diagnoses Of Gifted Children And Adults: ADHD, Bipolar, OCD, Asperger's, Depression, And Other Disorders by James T Webb.

    It helped a lot and clearly showed me that she doesn't have ADHD.

    I think I gave you a ~hug~ in your other thread because my two girls are very overwhelming as well. My DD4 sounds so much like yours down to the regressing when littler kids are around!!

    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Hi Twinkly,
    You are an amazingly good mother, persistiently looking to do the right thing for your children. Yippee!

    Your girls sound wonderful, if tiring. Thank you for bringing them into the world and for all the love and attention you give them.

    DD's lound voice has been a problem in the past. Has she made any progress with the 'inside voice?' Are you finding things to praise about her?

    We went the OT route for DS14,around age 7, and he got quite a lot out of it - but I think it's hard to know in advance until you try if it will help. Certianly OT's see sensory, MD's see ADHD, I see giftedness (LOL) but that's life, right?

    Practically speaking the question is how to get through each day. Hopefully increase the number of things she will do on her own and soon DD2 will be able to provide some fun for her.

    I'm hoping that your DD's school will be worth the time and money your family puts into it. If you can get a cool college student to provide stimulating activities for both dds at about the same cost, I would swap them out of preschool - I don't buy the argument that every preschools helps every child learn social skills. If the preschool would put your dd with the 5 year olds, then that's worth a try. If she is learning 'bad habits' in her current situation, then I wouldn't continue there, even if she likes it. I think the idea situation is one with multiages all together so she can gravitate towards the older ones when she wants to and be silly when she wants to.

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity



    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 465
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 465
    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    Twinkletoes, my feeling is, even if she's happy as a clam, if her behavior's wearing out dedicated parents and hurting other people's feelings, it should be worked on, and having help in this is better than not.

    Some people feel this approach is pathologizing children with whom nothing is seriously wrong; but taking this route has vastly improved the quality of our DS's life and ours.

    YMMV.
    DeeDee

    DeeDee, I like this way of looking at it. Reading Twinkle Toes posts and yours and others helps me feel better about seeking help for my DD.

    Thanks for the perspective. - Breakaway

    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 435
    T
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    T
    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 435
    Thanks Grinity. I always feel thankful when I see your name on here since you are the one who directed me here. Before this discussion forum, I didn't have any outlet to discuss these things, esp., the giftedness piece. Thanks again for pointing me in this direction.

    We are still working on the loud talking by praising her when she uses a more appropriate volume. The OT seems to think she isn't getting the right feedback or that since she may be sensory seeking she just enjoys the louder volume.

    DD2 is able to provide more fun now, but they can get very wild together and someone, usually the little one, often gets hurt or there are fights. There are days I wish they sat quietly playing tea like little "ladies" but the truth is they are more likely to be roaring like dinosaurs and tearing through the house.

    I try to praise them when they are playing more quietly and getting along. I need a refresher on the Nurtured Heart Approach. I wish there were a coach nearby who could help keep me on track...

    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 42
    B
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    B
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 42
    TwinkleToes, my DS8 is still waiting for more tests from psycho evaluation. He has many behaviors fitted OE, ADHD, AS, SPD symptoms. I searched information online and read books and still cannot figure out what he has. Then I decided to seek professional help. When I filled out the forms that doctor gave me, I ruled out AS. I still concern about ADHD though. When I read the forms, there are so many behaviors on the list fitted my son few years ago. Now he just outgrew them. I think if I have him evaluated few years ago, I would get different diagnoses. I can relate your feeling but 4 is still young. If there is no emergency issue, I will suggest to wait for one or two more years to see what happen. Hug~~

    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    Originally Posted by Breakaway4
    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    Twinkletoes, my feeling is, even if she's happy as a clam, if her behavior's wearing out dedicated parents and hurting other people's feelings, it should be worked on, and having help in this is better than not.

    Some people feel this approach is pathologizing children with whom nothing is seriously wrong; but taking this route has vastly improved the quality of our DS's life and ours.

    YMMV.
    DeeDee

    DeeDee, I like this way of looking at it. Reading Twinkle Toes posts and yours and others helps me feel better about seeking help for my DD.

    Thanks for the perspective. - Breakaway


    Me too!

    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    I have a 7 year old son who sounds like your child! I agree that 4 is young for a diagnosis, however if it is ADHD, children with early intervention benefit the most.

    I would try to look at her behavior in different settings. If you see the same behaviors across settings, it could be ADHD. Of course, at 4 I don't think anyone would actually diagnose it or treat it with medication. You don't want a mis-diagnosis.

    Oh, and on a side note, and this is just my personal opinion, I think that if you take a child to an OT to be evaluated for SPD, they'll find it! Just like taking your car to the shop. They always find "something." Kids are sensory-seeking in nature; it's how they learn about their environment. There are varying degrees of "normal" with regards to sensory perception/behaviors. This is another area I'd caution against diagnosing too early. As our pediatrician said when our son was 4 and diagnosed with SPD, "of course he has SPD; that's what makes him a 4 year old!" That said, SPD techniques/exercises can be easily found on the internet and implemented by parents. They do work, but in my opinion, they only work for a couple of hours following the exercises. If you an make them a part of your regular routine, you'll see results with any child, disordered or not. There are so many books on this, you can find the info yourself without paying for an evaluation. Not to knock OTs...I work with them daily, and they do wonderful work with people. This is just one area that I think is over-diagnosed and can cause people to miss other pertinent diagnoses or miss out on proper treatment. In my experience, SPD rarely stands alone and is usually a symptom of another issue.

    Have you researched ADHD strategies and behavior modification techniques? I would highly recommend starting those as early as possible regardless of a diagnosis or not.

    I don't know if this info helps at all, but please know you're not alone. I can SO relate to everything you said. In fact, I've been relating to it for 7 years! Hugs!!

    Last edited by JenSMP; 09/13/10 12:26 PM.
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Jen, what does early intervention for ADHD look like?

    Most doctors don't seem to evaluate for it until age 5 or so, saying there are no testing instruments that are accurate before that age. True? Myth?

    Book recommendations?

    DeeDee

    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    Jen, what does early intervention for ADHD look like?

    Most doctors don't seem to evaluate for it until age 5 or so, saying there are no testing instruments that are accurate before that age. True? Myth?

    Book recommendations?

    DeeDee

    I totally agree, Deedee. I don't think any doctor will diagnose at age 4, however if/when ADHD is diagnosed, the earlier it is treated, the better the long-term outcome.

    When I refer to treatment, I am talking about counseling, behavior mod therapy, ABA, teaching organizational strategies, environmental modifications, (among others), and sometimes medication, depending on severity. Parents can begin working on some of this at home very early on. Not that this is easy by any means. I struggle with it daily. Even with a diagnosis and active treatment (medication and home and school strategies-starting counseling this week), it's a work in progress at our house. Right now, we're trying to figure out if our son also has an anxiety disorder in addition to ADHD.

    I don't know of any 4-year-olds on medication, but I do know of 5-year-olds who take ADHD medications. The behavior mod techniques and counseling can benefit any child with ADHD-like symptoms whether it's actual ADHD, OEs, etc. Doctors/therapists will sometimes use a diagnosis of "emerging ADHD" for younger children if a medical diagnosis is needed to warrant treatment. Sometimes this diagnosis is changed to ADHD as the child gets older. Sometimes, with maturity the ADHD-like behaviors resolve. If this occurs, I'd say the child never had ADHD to begin with, but the counseling and strategies were likely beneficial nonetheless.

    The whole medication debate is another matter altogether, and those decisions depend on the doctor and the parent. My son started medication at 6, but I felt secure with the diagnosis once I let myself "go there" and accept the truth. It took me a while to be ready to hear it although I suspected it for a while. Had I had real doubts I would not have taken that route. We knew we had to do something because the ADHD was interfering with learning.

    As for testing instruments, most doctors use parent/teacher questionnaires. Some do neuro-psych testing, but I don't know any that are normed for children that young. I would caution against an ADHD (or any other)diagnosis at 4 years old, especially with a gifted child, to avoid misdiagnosis. However, I do feel strongly that the earlier a child receives help, the better off they'll be.

    I like the book: Smart but Scattered by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard Guare, PhD. Also, The Mislabeled Child by Brock Eide, M.D., M.A. and Fernette Eide, M.D. I'm also reading a book called The Survival Guide for Parents of Gifted Kids. I'm sure there are many others parents here can recommend.

    Oh, another thought on early suspicions of ADHD-I'd certainly look at family history. Obviously, if a parent, sibling, or other close relative has it, the more likely it is that your child could have it too.

    This is an interesting article:
    http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/2e.gifted.adhd.pdf


    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Originally Posted by JenSMP
    When I refer to treatment, I am talking about counseling, behavior mod therapy, ABA, teaching organizational strategies, environmental modifications, (among others), and sometimes medication, depending on severity.

    Jen, I'm fascinated. My DS8 has Asperger's-- we do a lot of ABA. I have never heard of ABA used for ADHD and would love to know more about the kinds of interventions: what specific skills are being taught and how?

    Thanks for the reading list-- will take a look!

    DeeDee

    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 425
    Dee-dee,
    I honestly have zero experience with ABA and therefore, probably shouldn't have included it. I added it in the list b/c of info I got from an OT friend of mine. Her son does ABA for ADHD, but I don't know much about it. From the little she shared with me about it, it sounds more like she is describing behavior modification techniques. She did say that the methods are adapted to fit ADHD rather than autism spectrum disorders, but that's all I know. I did try to search online for some info on ABA for ADHD, but I didn't find much. This is what I found, and it's certainly not any kind of substantial info or proof that it works. In fact the yahoo answers post has a reply from a doctor who says it's not an appropriate therapy for ADHD (I think; I just glanced at it.) Sorry!

    http://www.wellsphere.com/parenting-article/aba-vs-adhd/763025

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100321173550AAvUtBt

    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 313
    H
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    H
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 313
    Originally Posted by TwinkleToes
    Hi All,

    Some of you may already know my DD4's story and have already offered support and advice, but here I am again, still unsure.

    My DD4 is like many of the little ones on here: she spoke very early, read very early (well before three years old), did math early, asked outrageously advanced questions early, remembered things and learned at a frightening level and the "usual" (ha ha this is the only place I can call these things usual). Also, like some children on here, but unlike others, she is very, very intense.

    Now I know about over-excitabilities and how giftedness can look like ADHD etc. but I am still not sure where to turn. We actually had her assessed by an OT and she is beginning services for what appears to be sensory-seeking, but we have not received a report yet and they do not give a diagnosis. I am still wondering how much is sensory related and if that stands alone or is attached to something else like ADHD etc.

    She is funny, verbal, creative, and artistic, but some challenging traits are that she is impulsive, defiant, intense, grabby (wants to touch and throw everything), craves stimulation, seems to be talking a mile a minute every waking moment, etc.

    She can sit and focus on books, drawing, coloring, and Playdough for extended period. She has sat for the ballet and performances because she is interested in the show.

    She seems to get over-excited around other kids, esp, around littler ones: she regresses and acts sillier, louder, and more immature than they do. It is hard to advocate for your gifted child if she is acting like a clown and trying to talk in babytalk when she can read and speak in a very sophisticated way. I am all for her being a silly kid and acting goofy, but she often lets the wild woman out of the bag at the wrong times.

    She is extroverted and loves other kids, but gets over-excited sometimes and loses control of her senses. At that point, she makes bad decisions. She likes to rile other kids up and is good at it! She is highly emotional, and dramatic.

    Yeah, I love this kid, but she is tiring for a stay at home mom who had kids late in life and has a two year old who is also a fireball.

    Please pepper me with any questions if you have any thoughts. All feedback appreciated.

    thanks.

    You described my DS5 to a T.

    For my DS, he also tends to feed off of other children poor behaviors.

    I also feel bad seeking help since DH thinks all these are typical boy behiavors.

    Last edited by HelloBaby; 08/22/14 10:42 AM.
    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    New, and you'd think I'd have a clue...
    by astronomama - 03/24/24 06:01 AM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5