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    #83235 08/23/10 12:41 AM
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    Raddy Offline OP
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    ...and some of you will be aware of my problems with little'un and school (see my other posts)

    Well, it's crunch time as a new term approaches and we have to send littl'un back into the 'lions den'. This isn't helped by the fact that because of bullying/gifted problems in the state school system we enrolled him in an ����expensive private school.

    Anyhow, we were talking last night - like every night - about the problems with little'un: schools, teachers (spit!), bullies. I got to wonder if the schools are providing an education for a world that is rapidly vanishing.

    The UK schools - maybe the US ones too - prepare the kids for SATs and GCSEs in Maths English and other subjects then, at 16 years old, they have a clutch of certificates saying how well they've done, so.....no work available for 16 year olds so on to A Levels.
    then, at 18 years old, they have a clutch of certificates saying how well they've done, so.....no work available for 18 year olds so on to University
    then, at 21 years old, they have a clutch of certificates saying.... (you get the picture)

    My point really is that the work that used to be done here no longer is - no factories; shops and MacDonalds staffed by old folks like me or graduates waiting for the big break. And the jobs we once envied and wanted for our kids are either oversubscribed or done elsewhere (How many accountants/lawyers can the economy use/does the world need? How many UK or US IT tasks are performed online in the Asia and the Orient)

    So - what to do? Is it better to send little'un to the ���private school, teach little'un at home and save the money. Or have him taught at state school and save the money. Okay, his certificates might not be as shiny as the private school ones. But with the money saved we could perhaps take him on some valuable vacations, and save up enough so when he gets to 16 and has his certificates the money will still be there for him to go train in something which will make him a living - like plumbing, or masonry, or carpentry......

    The world has changed and is changing fast, Just this summer (this past week in fact) there are 150,000 (yes one hundred and fifty thousand) 18 year old leaqving school with shiny certificates with nowhere to go....and the pond just seems to be getting smaller and smaller and smaller...

    Seriously - thoughts please

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    My thoughts: I don't think it's as gloomy as you say. This year there are individual cases of students with good grades not having places, but generally speaking, someone who was going to get good grades *and made intelligent applications* got a university place. Students should have been advised by their schools that places were going to be tight this year, and should have been applying down, to universities that would definitely see them as good catches, making sensible use of insurance offers, considering their choice of courses carefully, thinking about having a year out, etc. TBH the cases in the press that I've seen are of students who applied only to top flight universities for popular courses - that obviously carries a risk of not getting an offer, and students should have been aware of that.

    You mentioned IT specifically, as though there weren't IT jobs. That's definitely not the case, at least for well educated software developers prepared to be reasonably flexible about where they work and on what kind of software. I know at least one good employer near me who recently advertised and got no applications - there is a shortage of people for these jobs, if anything. Yes, lots of work is done in Asia etc. now, but the sheer demand for work to be done is increasing more than enough to compensate for that.

    I can't say whether this particular school is a good deal for your child - I understand that you're very concerned about the way they've handled bullying in particular, and maybe leaving your son there is not the best choice, I don't know. I do think that education is more important now than ever before, and if there is to be increased pressure on university places, I think it's best for one's child to have the shiniest certificates possible. With the best will in the world, it's harder for universities to make exceptions, look at students as individuals, etc., when they are overwhelmed with "standard" applicants than when they are not.



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    Raddy Offline OP
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    Thanks ColinsMum

    I am from a very poor blue collar background. I have 4 A Levels. I have a good degree. I have 30+ years in IT at all levels. I am as flexible as a contortionist. Yet here I am able to type a reply to you at 11.40 on a Monday morning from home.

    Is a degree from any university worth the effort and expense - when the available 'good jobs' can be filled from maybe the top 10 (Cambridge, Oxford, Durham, LSE, Imperial.....)? And I still wonder since when did University become simply a means too a job - my old 6th form tutor must be spinning in his grave.

    Do I think it will be easier or harder for little'un to make his way than it was for me? What do you think?

    Absolutely I think education is very important - absolutely - but education for what? As I said initially are the kids being educated for a today's world - a world that is fast moving on and East. A friend, a good friend, who is now working well below ability in a Civil Service job said recently "school taught me everything apart from how to make a living". the people I see thriving are the plumbers, builders, mechanics. The brains work is now global - and can be accessed globally (like I am now - via t'internet)

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    I can't speak from a UK perspective, but from a US perspective, I wouldn't assume that your child's experience in the job market will be the same as yours - at least, not up front. The job market for someone with 30+ years of experience isn't at all the same as the market for new grads - even if you're willing to do the same work for the same money, because employers assume that you aren't *truly* willing to do the same work for the same money.

    I also can't speak from an IT perspective, but from a US accounting perspective, freshly-minted CPA-eligible college grads are a hot commodity, even from 2nd or 3rd tier schools. Particularly if they're young 20s and without family commitments (so happy to relocate and/or be 100% travel), but I know of 40-something women with elementary-aged children who got offers. Between SOX and IFRS, the auditors and industry need all the fresh meat they can get, and they're fighting over the same pool.

    Truly though, if my DD7 had an interest in learning a skilled trade, I'd be supportive of that interest. The school system here is such that she could both get a university degree (I'd suggest in something like business) and training in a trade, the combination of which would prepare her to do more than "just" practice the trade. Skilled trades are good work, but just as dependent on the vagaries of supply and demand as any other work - plus she might not want to be crawling around in the muck at age 60.

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    AlexsMom, I come from both an acct & IT background, and your words are true for both!

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    Truly though, if my DD7 had an interest in learning a skilled trade, I'd be supportive of that interest. The school system here is such that she could both get a university degree (I'd suggest in something like business) and training in a trade, the combination of which would prepare her to do more than "just" practice the trade.

    I echo your thoughts here too.

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    Skilled trades are good work, but just as dependent on the vagaries of supply and demand as any other work - plus she might not want to be crawling around in the muck at age 60.

    Interestingly, my father turns 60 next month. He had an interview on Friday to do a less physical job now that he's older. He's been an HVAC guy since he came back from Vietnam in 1971. The trade has been good to him, but at 60, he can't be climbing to rooftops and lifting heavy equipment. He does not have a degree, but I imagine, if he did, he would have left the daily grind at least 10 years ago.


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    Raddy Offline OP
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    Thanks all - perhaps I am being too pessimistic. But when you see an accountant putting his 2 sons through the sausage machine and you think - you know - when he steps off the wheel that's half a job each for his kids. I am speaking from a perspective where I know lawyers who have been on short weeks for 18 months, other accountant friends work themselves to the bone hardly seeing their families (despite the quite strict laws we have in the EU) and "newly minteds" are spewing out in their 000s.

    One educational professional said to us that the future is with the "creatives" - thank God little'un is just that with his sculpting and his art.

    Kids - they're a worry

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    I believe the US has a surplus of lawyers. Between that and the huge debt burden generally associated with law school, I would discourage my kid from going that route.

    Should my one kid go into accounting, she can have my mother's job and eventually mine. Mom is likely to retire as a CPA about the time that DD will graduate college. I'd just as soon she took up something like engineering, though. The accounting world is too subject to (both elected and appointed) political whims, but I know nothing of engineering, so can imagine it's better. wink

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    Maybe my perspective is different, Raddy, because my profession is not global, and I'm in the US.

    I still maintain that education is fundamentally useful. One of the goals of education is to learn how to think critically. It's wonderful if those critical-thinking skills translate into a job at the end of those years of schooling, and I believe most of the time (at least in the US) they do.

    I've known several people with advanced professional degrees (JD or MD) who ended up in vastly different fields than law or medicine. They were/are gifted individuals who, by virtue of their education and giftedness, were able to think critically and apply their skills in fields with no training or expertise.

    My profession is such that I am based in one location at a time, so my (somewhat narrow) perspective is this - I remain hopeful about the need for jobs to serve the local economy. I have seen a number of people, in a range of professions, lose their jobs in the last 2 years, but our local economy seems to be picking up again. I understand that a fair number of those jobs lost in this economy will never return. Maybe that's what you're seeing in the UK.

    I'm still investing everything I can in my children's education.

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    Raddy Offline OP
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    I guess it what we define as education. there are plenty of kids in the UK who spend 7 years at High School and still come out not knowing much.
    I worked with a chap in the City Of London (in a US bank as it happens) on an IT system. He was maybe 20 years younger than me with some high falootin' certificate (degree maybe? Advanced Level?) in maths. We got talking with another guy and we got onto the subject of Integral Calculus - which I studied for public exams at 15 - and the "high falooter" was completely lost.

    twomoose - from this side of the pond we hear the recovery in the US is being called "the jobless recovery"? same here in the UK I think. Maybe like the UK many people in work are working less hours to keep their jobs?? I think the local economy is probably the future for skilled people.

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    I think college for everyone is leading us down the wrong path. Many kids are getting expensive college degrees, and a load of debt and still can't get a job. Yet, the guy who comes to fix my dishwasher gets paid $100 for working one hour. And had enough disposable income to spend $20,000 on model trains last year. But I think professions like that are looked down upon. I just moved and I can't have TV for over 2weeks b/c there aren't enough technicians to do the install. I call to get propane installation and they are booking 1-2 weeks ahead. Yet there are so many people out of work w/ college degrees.

    I was talking to the builder of my new house. I asked if is 14yr old son was interested in becoming a builder. He said he's pushing his son to get his education. I asked his son what he wants to do - computer technician. Builders/contractors are professions that can't be outsourced.

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