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    #80228 - 07/12/10 10:42 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: La Texican]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    La Texican,

    I do have to agree with the person who argued against instructions of anatomically correct body, mostly because of your child's age. At two it really isn't important for them to be taught this, but do I think you have destroyed his creativity by doing so? No, of course not and from your post I get the impression that they delivered that message in an aggressive manner. Sorry you had to deal with that. I would suggest just handing him the paint and letting him have fun. You could always use the primary paints and introduce him to how they create secondary colors. Another fun project for toddlers is exploring nature. Take some paper and crayola outside and let him trace leaves or even shadows but if he goes outside and just wants to scribble that's fine too. It is just about opening their eyes to different environments.

    As for the two pictures you posted and creativity. The line drawing is way more interesting and the sweet narrative of what he saw seals the deal. I love to see drawings and painting by children and listen to how they interpret it. DD always has a story about her creations. It is never, "hey I drew a monkey" but more this is my monkey and he did x, y and z and on and on and next thing you know we are all involved in the story.

    Big hugs to you and don't worry about other people's opinions especially when they take it to the extreme and if I'm going this route you most definitely don't have to consider mine either. wink Just have fun with your DS.

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    #80230 - 07/12/10 11:15 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Katelyn'sM om]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    Just for examples and I liked La Texican's links:

    Four pictures from 26 months - 42 months:

    http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/mybarley/artwork/


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    #80231 - 07/12/10 11:54 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Katelyn'sM om]
    Dandy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/12/08
    Posts: 574
    So I'm guessing that Turkish coloring books are particularly bad?
    _________________________
    Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz

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    #80235 - 07/13/10 04:16 AM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: PoppaRex]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    Originally Posted By: PoppaRex
    Anyone know of any studies that indicate whether computer based training is effective when used in an individual setting as opposed to a school setting?



    If reputable universities are now offering some of their courses online is it wrong to assume they put the research and development into it and that CBT alone at home is effective, or is it that they're doing the R&D right now by offering them?
    _________________________
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    #80238 - 07/13/10 04:42 AM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: La Texican]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    My problem with coloring books comes from two main ideas. First, the idea that most of the forms in children's coloring books are of such low artistic and other merit that I don't want my son using them as a template for anything. I don't even want him looking at them. That problem is solved by high-quality coloring books, such as the one posted earlier on botany, but still exists for a great number of coloring books, what I would consider a vast majority.

    Second, if my son has only so much time in his young life for creative expression, I would simply rather that he maximize his efficiency during that time toward development of whimsy, his own artistic sense, etc. In other words, I view time spent coloring as a missed chance in some important ways, even if it doesn't actually set a child back.

    Of course, if it's really true that doing coloring books helps in certain other ways, doing nothing but freeform art would represent a number of missed chances from another point of view that places importance on different things. And I will allow that coloring even the most insipid coloring book is less passive than, say, watching TV, and some coloring books may even be teaching tools, like the one at passthepotatoes's link. I am sure all of our children will muddle through just fine despite different views on learning and child-rearing.





    Edited by Iucounu (07/13/10 05:00 AM)
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    #80239 - 07/13/10 04:49 AM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: La Texican]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    Originally Posted By: La Texican
    Originally Posted By: PoppaRex
    Anyone know of any studies that indicate whether computer based training is effective when used in an individual setting as opposed to a school setting?


    If reputable universities are now offering some of their courses online is it wrong to assume they put the research and development into it and that CBT alone at home is effective, or is it that they're doing the R&D right now by offering them?


    I don't think it's really in question that CBT at home is effective to some degree. I would wonder whether you're missing out on some things without the school setting, and if so, what sort of things and how much. My guesses as to some possible differences: a home-based approach may lack structure compared to a school setting with a stricter curriculum and/or curriculum order (which may be good or bad), and when a child hits a problem area at home there is only the parent available, who would not usually be a trained teacher (but a bad teacher may be worse than none, and an attentive parent may be a better natural teacher than the average trained teacher, and a bright person shouldn't have a problem teaching at least elementary-school topics).

    Your question about R&D is interesting. I would think that there are some interesting uses for data gathered on the learning sites.


    Edited by Iucounu (07/13/10 04:50 AM)
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    #80245 - 07/13/10 06:00 AM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Iucounu]
    PoppaRex Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 06/09/10
    Posts: 44
    Iucounu: Certainly you have you own theories and I wouldn't presume you are correct or not. What i can tell you is my own experience, not that of my child or anyone else's studies. What I know is this: I had access to all sort of coloring books before I started school, so before kindergarten here's what I learned.

    - I learned that it was difficult to stay inthe lines until someone showed me a trick that i could put my index finger along the lines and "Bump" it with the crayon forcing me to staying the form. That didn't teach me that i needed to conform to someone else's idea of a picture, it taught me that there sometimes are tricks that can be used to solve a problem when you don't have the skills to be successful.

    - I learned that a flat 2D image could pop out at you by adding shading, to look for places where shading would be expected (EVEN if it's not drawn in the picture. That taught me that even though there were "rules" to the picture i could challenge those and take the image beyond what was expected. It also taught me that i should look at the natural world to observe and see how things work in the real word and try to apply them to the picture.

    I have a hard time with your logic that coloring books stifle creativity. Anything that exposes you to something other than you normlly would have thought of enhances creativity, not stifles it.

    As much as i like to learn independantly, there are time when i wish i had someone that i could have sit with me and show me what they do. Music for example. I am a self taught hack on the guitar and I do fairly well, but i don't play enough to be able to play something by ear ( I USED to but that takes practice!) so it's great to use Youtube to watch how joe blow plays a particular piece. Would it be more creative to invent my own song? LOL Maybe, but it might suck too. I happen to think by emmulating someone else, you enhance your ability and learn to grow outside of yourself.

    Back to CBT, (This is a song about CBT, Remember? - Arlo Guthrie, sortof) The fact that colleges are heading more towards CBT is really validation to me that it should be viable. I have since found that there are some 27 states that have some form of virtual high schools online. I am more convinced that CBT is the way to go if you have a child who works independantly well.


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    #80251 - 07/13/10 06:36 AM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: PoppaRex]
    Clay Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/11/10
    Posts: 123
    Loc: GA (for now)
    PoppaRex,

    I would agree with you that if a child is interested in CBT (and most of them are), it makes sense to include it in the curriculum. Then the question becomes:
    -- for what purpose? (Eg, to learn what subject)
    -- which programs? (For, just like all schools -- or even all classrooms -- are not created equal, not all programs are created equal)

    I use a lot of informal CBT with my dd in the form of YouTube, on the theory that a moving picture is worth 10,000 words. So, when we read something offline that she doesn't have the context for, we often look up a photo or video of it so she can get a greater sense of what we're talking about. And, most of her "music appreciation" has come from YouTube, both in the form of examples of specific instruments being played and, at her insistance, how they are made. Now, my dd is young; doubtless, when she is your ds's age, she will be looking up videos and a dizzying plethora of informational websites. Now, this isn't even vaguely structured or "correlated to state standards", but I think it's part of that ability "to chase rabbit holes" when learning occurs outside of the context of formal schooling. It's like that old encyclopedia commercial -- "Look it up, dear" -- has come to its own in a big way. We use formal CBT, too, but just wanted to provide a different perspective.

    PS -- There is TONS of research on CBT. Most of the major CBT providers have published reports on their effectiveness, though typically in the classroom setting, where it is easier to have a control group, standardized delivery, etc., etc.

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    #80254 - 07/13/10 06:45 AM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Clay]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    Youtube rocks, especially IMO for science concepts. A recent sample that we had fun viewing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
    _________________________
    Striving to increase my rate of flow, and fight forum gloopiness. sick

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    #80256 - 07/13/10 06:59 AM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: CFK]
    Clay Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/11/10
    Posts: 123
    Loc: GA (for now)
    Oh my gosh, lucounu! DD4 is not ready for that yet, but tonight I'm getting the popcorn and having a Dr Quantum-fest with DH. He's very interested in Theoretical Physics, but has NO background in it and very little in (college-level) math, so he's going to love this. smile


    Edited by Clay (07/13/10 08:05 AM)
    Edit Reason: Clarity

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