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    #80185 - 07/12/10 12:01 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: PoppaRex]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    Originally Posted By: PoppaRex
    Originally Posted By: Iucounu
    It's that I just don't want to dull his mind with coloring books


    Please, please, please rethink your position.

    While i'd agree you have an issue if coloring books were the only offering in lieu of classwork, I have to say that coloring books were a savior to me as a kid. I could easily get lost coloring. I learned all sorts of techniques for shading, complimentray colors, texturing, etc. and just the sheer ability to color something how I WANTED to was a creative freedom that was allowed on a world where kids were supposed to listen rather than think. That was one of the few things that kept me sane.

    What a sad place the world would have been had I not been allowed to color.

    As far as the carbon copy aspect of art. Here's a little story for you... My daughter applied to the fashion Institute in NYC and I remember the portfolio review of her designs. The woman was quite excited and gushed that they usually don't get applicants with such a well defined "voice" (a unique sense of style all her own), saying "People just don't do work like this!". Needless to say she was accepted. What does that have to do with carbon copy art? My daughter told me that her art ability was woken somewhere like 3rd grade when she had to do a soap sculpture. She had no idea what to do so she and I sat at the kitchen table and she decided she wanted to carve a fish. So we sketched a design and i had a block of soap and she had a block of soap and she copied what I did. I didn't hold her hands, she did it herself, but she had an example to follow and it just opened her eyes as to what she could do. You never know when a spark is kindled.

    Poppa


    I've rethought it, and I still hate coloring books. I will also never sit with my children and have them copy my movements in doing an art project. What I might do is have my kids view other art, form their inspiration partly from it, and do their own designs afterward. Another thing I do is have my five-year-old son refine his own concept through multiple stages, then implement it.

    You would have had even greater artistic freedom if you had started with a blank page, created your own outline and done your own shading, etc. after that. There's simply no argument on this that will convince me.

    Without meaning offense, I take your comments in a similar spirit as stories about someone's grandmother who smoked all her life, yet lived to 102 without a bit of lung cancer. That is probably true for some people, but it doesn't mean that smoking is good for you. I don't doubt that you enjoyed coloring as a kid, or that your daughter got accepted to art school, etc.-- and just for the record, I don't think my son would be instantly tainted by doing a coloring book either, and think the botany one posted earlier is actually pretty cool-- but I just think that in general they tend to stunt creativity.


    Edited by Iucounu (07/12/10 12:06 PM)
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    #80190 - 07/12/10 12:20 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Lori H.]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: Lori H.


    My son remembers the positive as well as the negative. I don't think he dwells on the negative, but he also doesn't forget. .. He remembers talking to the teachers on playground duty instead of actually playing because there were bullies on the playground who were much bigger because they were older, having been redshirted, which is the custom here, and he didn't feel safe when they were around.

    Teachers seemed to be blind to the bullying or maybe they were just thinking positive--bullying is not really that bad, it builds character, and boys will be boys, etc.


    Its is called "Big Boys and Girls Rules of Life."

    I was in 5th grade when I figured this out. The bully beat me up in the locker room and the gym teacher did nothing about it. I was so mad at the injustice that when the bully got the ball, I just cleaned his clock so hard that he was crying to the gym teacher who consoled him and gave me a mean look.

    I learned that bullies are really children inside and that they are often protected by those in power who use the bully as proxies.

    When he got back on the field, I nailed him again because I was still mad at the gym teacher and when I got up I looked right at the teacher. The bully left me alone after that and other boys welcomed me as friends.

    Much of the world is still governed by the use of physical violence and it is a deep part of human nature. Some people you cannot reach by argument, but they can reach out and punch you. You have to have an answer for this rather than pretending it does not exist. Running away is a legitimate defense.

    A lot of kids cannot use the sports field or for other reasons, cannot strike back. You then either take it, or avoid it altogether. I think taking it will destroy most peoples' ability to form boundaries and how to deal with anger. Therefore, avoiding it also protects you. Striking back risks becoming a bully oneself or becoming callous to others' plight.

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    #80197 - 07/12/10 01:08 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Austin]
    Wren Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    Well, this really digressed from CBT.

    I don't have much of an opinion on coloring books, as I don't have much artisitic talent. But I do think it is cool for kids that love art to take that to the next level, coloring pictures online and doing graphic art.

    I am not an expert on what it does to your creativity, having little. And I don't think I did that much coloring as a kid...

    But DD loves to do it in restaurants and in her downtime (which she does have) she actually will color sometimes, usually blank sheets and draw her own pictures.

    So my point was that taking coloring and transfering to computer may be a great learning tool for kids that are interested.

    Ren

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    #80199 - 07/12/10 02:19 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Wren]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    Coming from an art background and being an artist myself, I honestly roll my eyes at no use of color books. Plain and simple: it helps with fine motor skills. My DD colors when we are out and about, usually at restaurants. She also draws and writes and I have yet to see her creativity stifled by such acts.

    As for over use in school ... I see this as a problem and it is part of the issue of repetition in general. Teachers rely on coloring books/pages because they can't seem to think outside of the box.

    I do have a problem when teachers roll their eyes at a child's drawing and consider it scribble when clearly there is something there of imagination and creativity. I've witnessed this first hand and it set me off as I listened to the teacher put this little girl's work down because she refused to stay in between the lines as she colored. But, to jump to absolutely NO coloring books allowed ... it's just as extreme as constant assignments of coloring.

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    #80206 - 07/12/10 03:20 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Katelyn'sM om]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    I guess you couldn't see with your naked eyeballs the extra development in fine motor skills, any more than you could the stunted creativity, am I right?

    You of course wouldn't see her creativity stifled when coloring; you are predisposed against the idea, and you'd have to observe what she could have drawn by herself without someone else's lines in the way, and then compare it to the colored book. Which would show and encourage more creativity?

    I think for most children, scribbling is a natural part of the development of early art ability and interest. It's just another thing that's discouraged by the stay-within-the-lines mentality of most coloring books, and of the people that rely on them to keep kids quiet and occupied.

    It would be hard to measure the impact of coloring books on creativity, though I guess one could form a study. But just like I don't let my kids watch a lot of TV, I don't/won't let them do coloring books. It's passive; why color in someone else's drawing when one could be drawing instead? I just don't see the point. Plain paper is easy to keep around.

    I wasn't meaning to be confrontational on this. Remember, I started by commiserating with someone. I just feel the way I do, and am honest about it. It's okay for us to disagree. I don't think anyone here seems to be doing a bad job with their kids, and I'm no expert on raising kids in general.


    Edited by Iucounu (07/12/10 03:25 PM)
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    #80208 - 07/12/10 03:58 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Iucounu]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    Originally Posted By: Iucounu
    You of course wouldn't see her creativity stifled when coloring; you are predisposed against the idea, and you'd have to observe what she could have drawn by herself without someone else's lines in the way, and then compare it to the colored book. Which would show and encourage more creativity?


    Since I've allowed my child access to coloring books I clearly have no ability to judge her creativity? Seriously? I love your assumptions that since my child has actually used a coloring book or page that she is only allowed such activities for her creativity. This extreme attitude is cracking me up. As I stated in my first post, I am an artist and have degrees in art. Many a time has been spent with my daughter just drawing on an art tablet. She has her own art supplies (Tablet and art pencils) and happily draws nonstop throughout the day. She also enjoys watching mommy draw.

    My DD has been writing and drawing way before she turned 1 and way before she was interested in coloring. I have seen no decline in her creativity, just an advancement of her skills. She still creates her mystical creatures with volume. Is coloring her favorite thing to do? No, but if and when she wants to she is more than welcome to it. Does she prefer to just draw? Actually yes and of course this is where we see her creativity but the argument of stifling her creativity because she has colored between some lines is silly.

    And again, I'm not arguing against the logic of coloring being over used, especially in schools. And I feel this argument is valid in that if all they ever give them is these structured projects then the children have no real outlet to create. My DD has the bonus of mommy and the chance to let loose and just see where it leads her. Some kids only get 'art' time in school and this is sad.

    But I certainly do not have a hate of coloring books. And by no means am I saying you should change your mind ... it is your right as a parent such as it is my right as a parent to be fine with it. What I am sensing is you on a soapbox and that is what I'm reacting to.

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    #80209 - 07/12/10 04:03 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Kriston]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    Originally Posted By: Kriston
    My kids love getting the crayons and coloring sheets at restaurants. They just turn the placemat over to the blank side and draw their own stuff. smile


    My DD too. She is all about drawing no matter if there are printed lines or not. First thing she does is flip it over to the blank side and draw away. Sometimes she flips it back over and colors a section and sometimes she uses the printed side to continue on with her imagery. Whatever she wants to do is fine with me.

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    #80220 - 07/12/10 07:15 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Katelyn'sM om]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    Originally Posted By: Katelyn'sM om
    Since I've allowed my child access to coloring books I clearly have no ability to judge her creativity? Seriously?


    The way this space-time thingy works is that it goes in one direction only. You can't observe your daughter doing freeform art during the time she's coloring, and you can't observe what she would have been like if she hadn't colored at all.


    Quote:
    I love your assumptions that since my child has actually used a coloring book or page that she is only allowed such activities for her creativity.


    I don't think we're on the same page.

    Quote:
    I am an artist and have degrees in art.


    Wow! You win!

    Quote:
    My DD has been writing and drawing way before she turned 1 and way before she was interested in coloring. I have seen no decline in her creativity, just an advancement of her skills.


    Did I suggest that use of coloring books would bring development to a screeching halt?
    _________________________
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    #80224 - 07/12/10 09:00 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Iucounu]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    Originally Posted By: Iucounu
    Wow! You win!


    With this sort of childish response I see no point in continuing this.

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    #80226 - 07/12/10 10:16 PM Re: Computer based training (CBT) [Re: Katelyn'sM om]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    I just had this same artistic debate not long ago. Back in April I gave my then 2.5 yr old paintbrushes and talked him through painting an anatomically correct person.
    http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad296/Hablame_today/2d0919be.jpg

    Some unschooly type mothers I tried to show it to said I would stifle his creativity and that I really shouldn't have showed him how to do that. Maybe it's true. Maybe art isn't about observing and interpreting what you see onto paper. Now at 2 yrs. 9 mos. what he has drawn independantly recently looks like this: http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad296/Hablame_today/b8c64c58.jpg
    He told me the curved parallel lines is a dog, the little circle is his nose, the line beside it is his mouth, and the line on the other side is his "butt" (guessing he meant tail). And recently he's looked at the picture again and asked me, "where's the patas?". (spanish for feet). I don't know what to think of this debate. Sorry to follow this off-topic tangant. I just felt like fishing for someone to say something positive about my sons talent development. Sorry. This debate has had me kind of bummed for months, even though it happened a few months ago.
    Putting artistic talent into computer graphics is a great career choice, from what I've heard. My little brother just graduated from video game design school. He collaborated on the production of the Disney/Pixar videogame "UP" for X-box. I've thought it would be cool someday to make an entire cartoon on my own, which would have been impossible just a few years ago and is now doable with computer graphics software. Look at King Kong for example, super low budget set in various public places in a few different cities but the cg made it spectacular.


    Edited by La Texican (07/12/10 10:17 PM)
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