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    Wren Offline OP
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    Since people asked, I thought I would start a new thread since I have more information.

    Hunter College runs a gifted elementary school and gifted high school in Mnahattan.

    I just asked a child psychologist, whose child made the second round, which SB test it was and she didn't know. It is a Stanford Binet. They have a cutoff percentile. Last year it was 97th, this year 98th. They are hoping to only get 200 kids for the second round.

    Here are the stats. Also relevant to an article about gender ratios.

    1800 asked for the application, 1660 filled it out. 286 made the second round of achieving 98th percentile. 272 made appts. The ratio is 5:4 girls to boys.

    In the second round, it is 2 hours long, they evaluate them for what they call true giftedness. I guess that is suppose to take out "hot house" kids. What is a hot house kid?

    They look for kids that ask Why? Are highly interested in information. Does anyone's kid get deeply into a topic at 3 or 4 that they wanted to know everything about it? I am not sure how they research a topic. But I would be glad to hear any stories on this. I am curious to know what they would be looking for as I will go through this process next year.

    What are the differences between "hot housed" kids and truly gifted, in your experience out there?

    Ren

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    In a nutshell, I'd say self-motivation is the hallmark of GT kids, whereas hothoused kids are the ones whose parents are pushing.

    The best example I know of hothousing in pop culture is from the Steve Martin movie "Parenthood." The Rick Moranis character is TOTALLY hothousing his little daughter in that movie.

    Flashcards, rote memorization, pushy "stage parents"...these are the stuff of life for a hothoused kid.

    An eager thirst for knowledge that the poor, exhausted parents can't keep up with...this is the life of a GT kid. They pick stuff up that you don't know how they learned it. They remember something you told them once months earlier when you thought they weren't paying attention. Essentially, the GT kids drive the learning bus and the parents hang on for dear life, not the other way around.


    Kriston
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    P.S. There was a lengthy, very active thread about this very topic a couple/few months ago. You might get something out of it if you can search for it, maybe? (I'm too lazy to search for it myself, I confess!)


    Kriston
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    We have friends whose kids went to Hunter from elementary on. They loved it. Good luck!

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    Hi Ren,
    Here's the link to the topic, one of my favorites:
    *** Link no longer working ***

    Hi Questions!

    Grinity

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    Thanks for the link. I understand the push with flash cards. But aren't a lot of kids "hot housed" now before that stage with Baby Einstein. I mean they know their instruments by 14 months because of Baby Einstein orchestra. When we were in Toronto, we went to the zoo a lot because it was easy, (it opened at 9 am) and we really enjoyed it, but at a year and a half, she knew the difference and names of 60 or 70 animals. It wasn't intentional. So isn't lifestyle creating hot housed kids?

    And what about all those things that increase IQ ten points? Breast feeding, DHA, etc, etc. And then one year of music lessons increases IQ 8 points in older kids.

    And China is supposedly taking hot housing to a whole new level. I saw a news segment on a preschool program. 10 million kids in those programs.

    I think it is getting harder to define what is nature and nurture for brain development sometimes.

    Ren

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    Ren,

    I'm sure you've heard stories in NYC about parents who go to extremes for private school admission. As I understand it, there are test prep experts for the very young hoping to gain admission to the elite private schools. I don't think Hunter is going to be concerned about your exposing your daughter to the ballet, the zoo, or whatever, as long as they see ability and interest, not just rote skills under pressure. My friends' kids are already in high school and college, so I have no info on current testing procedures. If I find out, I'll let you know, but I don't think you have to be concerned about preparing for the evaluation.

    All the best!

    Questions

    ps - Hi, Grinity - realized I do have to work, and have cut back on my posting...

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    Me again. Read the link on hothousing. It is a difficult thing. I can understand if you are yelling at your kid, you are going to learn the alphabet before you are 2 or you don't get ice cream.

    I am grateful that Wila is smart and curious and wants to learn. There are times she doesn't. Then there are times she is spelling words on the fridge with the magnetic letters and asking how to spell something. Or counting and doing addition on her own.

    But I did read to her for a couple of hours everyday when she was an infant, I got the Baby Einstein DVDs, I sang the Alphabet song with her and got all kinds of "Alphabet" books early on. And counting stories. You can't turn around in that section of Barnes & Nobles without hitting an Alphabet or Numbers book. So I think it is relative. Maybe if my child was not as smart and I had to push to want her to be where I see her classmates, maybe I would be that crazy.

    I was a chaperone for a field trip to Carnegie Hall. I had my DD and another little boy's hand. As we were walking up the stairs of the subway, I suggested counting. The little boy couldn't count past 10. First I was shocked, he is 4. Then last week I was with another mother and we were heading to the library for a puppet show. There was counting going on and the mother was telling how the little girl counted to 23 that morning. I have learned not to say anything, like when a friend whose son is in kindergarten and learning to read and I piped up and said DD is reading the early readers also, I got silence. You all know about that. But if I was that mother and I was with another mother and they said yes, my daughter quickly learned to count past 100 when she got the base ten concept down, I would probably be doing a lot of hot housing wondering why my kid wasn't.

    Just joking.

    Ren


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    I am no expert but to me the difference between a truly gifted child and a hot housed learner is that the gifted child is always at least 1 step ahead of where the caregivers are expecting (usually many, many more :)). The hot housed child is learning at or just below the expectations of the caregiver.

    Opportunity will always allow a child to learn things that another child may not know, which is one of the reasons that low income and minority gifted children so often fall through the cracks and get missed in early identification programs. However, it is what the child does with the knowledge that points to the difference between high average and gifted. For example: Does the child point to an animal and say elephant at 18 months or does the child look at you and ask why does the elphant have a built in shower?

    A personal experience for us was during a trip to the Aquarium when he was 3. Our son was facinated with trying to identify as many of the fish as possible from the identification signs. He was sounding out latin names and seeing the similarities between different names and then looking at the fish to see if he could tell what made them different. Many parents looked at Dh and I like we were abusive parents as we stood at the same exhibit for close to an hour helping him to answer his own questions. Things didn't get ugly until we got the the reef exhibit. There were about 20 young children screaming NEMO!!!. Our child calmly looked in the tank and said " That's Marlin not Nemo. Nemo had a deformed fin. That fish doesn't." To me that is an example of gifted versus opportunity. It is the ability to not only learn but to make connections beyond what is expected or anticipated. The connections do not always have to be correct or valid. Often they can be a bit off the wall. But in my experience, most preschool age children do not watch a sting ray move and then compare it to how the sheets on his bed ripple when he waves them. And start talking about movement, momentum and air and water currents.

    I think it is harder for schools to tell the difference between gifted and hot housed. If I remember Dottie's posts correctly, many of the tests for preschool age children CAN greatly inflate the results if a child already knows how to read or do simple math.

    I'm glad I'm not one of the people who have to decide which of the applicants are going to be accepted and which are not!

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    Originally Posted by Wren
    Then last week I was with another mother and we were heading to the library for a puppet show. There was counting going on and the mother was telling how the little girl counted to 23 that morning. I have learned not to say anything, like when a friend whose son is in kindergarten and learning to read and I piped up and said DD is reading the early readers also, I got silence.

    I think the right think to say is "That's great. Can you count for me till 23?" or "What does he like to read?" Just be happy for them. I know it's hard not to talk about your daughter, but leave it for a different occasions. It will come up regardless. I remember my son who used to welcome people with chapter books and then proceeded to read them a chapter or two. It used to be quite shocking for the parents of his preschool friends smile

    I don't think reading and being able to do math doesn't influence IQ tests. Achievement tests of course but there is no reading in PreK IQ testing or am I mistaken? All that said I remember reading articles about NYC and IQ preparation being offered. I am sure the kids can be prepared for the tests, but all that said I don't find it that surprising that there are so many of them. 98% is not that hight, that's 1 out of 50.
    Manhattan has lots of well educated residents and lots of them are gifted and likely to have gifted children, with the price of private schools it's not surprising that people are trying to get their kids to Hunter if possible.

    You are really lucky that NYC offers so many gifted programs for their residents. It's sad that the same thing is not applied to the rest of the Tri-state area. BTW why one does have to live only in Manhattan to get to Hunter? Why dont' they include other parts of NYC or suburbs?


    LMom
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    Originally Posted by elh0706
    ...to me the difference between a truly gifted child and a hot housed learner is that the gifted child is always at least 1 step ahead of where the caregivers are expecting (usually many, many more :)). The hot housed child is learning at or just below the expectations of the caregiver.

    Opportunity will always allow a child to learn things that another child may not know, which is one of the reasons that low income and minority gifted children so often fall through the cracks and get missed in early identification programs. However, it is what the child does with the knowledge that points to the difference between high average and gifted. For example: Does the child point to an animal and say elephant at 18 months or does the child look at you and ask why does the elphant have a built in shower?


    I think you've hit the nail right on the head, elh.

    I agree that the difference between hothousing and true GT is the difference between memorization and understanding.

    There's nothing whatsoever wrong with exposing kids to learning opportunities, but kids have ALWAYS been exposed to learning opportunities. Certainly those opportunities have changed over time, but that's not necessarily *better* learning, just different stuff. Is knowing all the instruments in the orchestra somehow "better" than knowing all the wildflowers in a farm's pasture? I'd argue no. It's just different.

    I really think it comes down to the motivation of the child. Is she learning just to please you? Then you're hothousing. Is she learning because she can't NOT learn? Then she's GT.

    And it is possible to have both GTness and hothousing at once. GT kids don't always want to learn all the time. Or they'll want to learn through play instead of through drill-and-kill. You can hothouse the love of learning right out of a GT kid. I really think it's generally better to follow the lead of the child.

    I'm not a fan of "competitive parenting." I don't think what someone else's child is doing has much of anything to do with what my child is doing. I only worry if one of my boys seems behind what is normal, not behind what is GT, not behind what the neighbor kids are doing.

    <shrug>


    Kriston
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    I'm not sure you can hot house a non gifted kid into scoring above the 98th percentile on an IQ test. Especially the newer ones which more heavily weigh processing speed and working memory index.

    I


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    Agreed. Though we just took the WISC and I was surprised at how much FOK stuff there was in it. That stuff could be hothoused if you knew it was on the test.


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    First, I was trying not to be competitive with my friend. But it has come to the point where I don't talk about DD achievements, besides people notice and say enough already.

    Two, you can hothouse to get great scores. There was a study done on the SB. You can use the SB to hot house or use the pre-k books etc. You can gain an average of 13 IQ points, almost a standard deviation. So you could go from 66th percentile to 95th, approximately. But I think it only works in the younger set.

    Third. I think that is why I asked people for your opinions on what they look for and thank you for your answers. Like when we did the test a few weeks ago, DD whipping through this one section in a flip book. She was actually giving wrong answers then at one point, where it got harder, she stopped, went back and corrected herself. She wasn't bored anymore -- according to the tester -- this was towards the end of test. The tester says that what was telling was her self-correcting, because a 3 year old doesn't self correct. But that kind of thing doesn't neccessarily happen in an evaluation.

    And although everyone said very interesting things, I have to admit that at 18 months DD did not ask why the elephant had a built in shower. We were delighted that she started using 3 word sentences.

    Another question. There was a question whether your child was so interested in a topic that they "researched" it and learned as much as possible about it. They are talking about 3 and 4 year olds.

    A couple of mothers asked if Disney princesses counted, because that was the only thing their DD were interested in to any extent. My DD doesn't research on the Internet and we do go to the library, but she seems interested in so many things. She looks at the globe and wants to know where certain places are, she knows her planets, about the asteroid belt, as mentioned she asks a great many questions about things. Is that "researching" for a 3 year old? What is your experience? It seems like she is filling files -- and she does use it, sometimes strangely in a story.

    Though many times it is working to apply it to her life, like at school they learned about liquid, gas and solid. So asking questions about the butter melting in the pan, the solid is turning into liquid. But there a bunch of questions when she first learned the concept to figure it out and put it somewhere in her brain and then it was done, she understood it.

    But I do not know, I trust the psychologist, who has tested twice now, to have a better opinion.

    Ren

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    Originally Posted by Wren
    Another question. There was a question whether your child was so interested in a topic that they "researched" it and learned as much as possible about it. They are talking about 3 and 4 year olds.

    Here is what I think they meant. My son goes through what we call "obsessions". He picks up a topic and learns as much as he can about it. He talks about it all the time, reads about it, asks questions, writes about it, draws maps/graphs/pictures, wants us to look up this or that. Basically 50% (if not more) of his free time evolves around it. This lasts a few months and then the topic fades away and something else will eventually come up. Within those few months he learns enormous amount of information. It makes him really happy. As a matter of fact he is pretty miserable when he is done with one topic, but hasn't found a new one yet.

    He is 5 now, but he did it when he was 3 and 4 (even 2). He was into reading, geography, space and such.

    I think Kriston's son does something similar. Look up the math post, I think it's there.


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    Thanks, that is very interesting. His penmanship must have been much better than DD at 3 to write about it, draw maps and graphs.

    My husband is like that by nature. He was "obsessed" about the Dark Ages and found obscure texts to read, books, then it is something else. He was like that as a child. Though he is HG not PG. As mentioned before he will read 2-3 books a week, but he is definitely an auditory learner. DD is non-linear by nature, though she seems inclined both ways. Astrologically she is anyway wink

    Ren

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    I've gotten a bit obsessed with learning about DS's test scores--does that make me PG?

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    wink Probably....

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    Originally Posted by acs
    I've gotten a bit obsessed with learning about DS's test scores--does that make me PG?


    Isn't that ND for the mom of a PG kid?

    (tee-hee-hee!)


    Kriston
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    Originally Posted by Kriston
    Originally Posted by acs
    I've gotten a bit obsessed with learning about DS's test scores--does that make me PG?


    Isn't that ND for the mom of a PG kid?

    (tee-hee-hee!)

    LOL. I sure hope so.

    Ren, I meant typing on the computer. His writing didn't really take off till K, but he was always a good speller. As for maps and so, you can trace them and you don't really need too many skills to draw the Solar System or comets.


    LMom
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    Originally Posted by LMom
    Originally Posted by Wren
    Another question. There was a question whether your child was so interested in a topic that they "researched" it and learned as much as possible about it. They are talking about 3 and 4 year olds.

    Here is what I think they meant. My son goes through what we call "obsessions". He picks up a topic and learns as much as he can about it. He talks about it all the time, reads about it, asks questions, writes about it, draws maps/graphs/pictures, wants us to look up this or that. Basically 50% (if not more) of his free time evolves around it. This lasts a few months and then the topic fades away and something else will eventually come up. Within those few months he learns enormous amount of information. It makes him really happy. As a matter of fact he is pretty miserable when he is done with one topic, but hasn't found a new one yet.

    He is 5 now, but he did it when he was 3 and 4 (even 2). He was into reading, geography, space and such.

    I think Kriston's son does something similar.


    I think that's what they mean, too, LMom. And, yes, DS6 has gone from one all-consuming obession to another his whole life. Each has lasted a year or more--a lifetime for a 2 or 3yo!--and each time he positively devoted his life to that particular obsession.

    For example: at 2, while potty training, DS6 would have us read the "Consumer Reports" auto edition to him so that he could memorize the make and model of every car on the road. This was definitely NOT hothousing! Believe me, I did NOT want to sit in the bathroom and read a car magazine aloud to him over and over and over! LOL! But it was his favorite thing in the world to do. His grandparents even gave him his own copy so that he could carry it around and study the pictures wherever he went. A trip through a parking lot was better than an amusement park for this kid, and he walked down the rows saying, "Chevy Malibu...Audi 4000...Volkswagen Rabbit..." From a mile away (literally), he could ID a moving car correctly from behind. I often joked that if we were in a hit-and-run accident, I'd have my 2yo ID the car for me because I was clueless and he was an EXPERT!

    He did the same sort of thing with colors ("No, Mommy, that's Cornflower Blue, not Sky Blue!"), NASCAR (even though NO ONE ELSE likes NASCAR!), and construction vehicles. To this day I know the difference between a tracked excavator and a backhoe because of my son's obsession. My DH has a relative who owns a contruction company, and he and my DS spent over an hour discussing the equipment. The guy said he'd never had such an in-depth conversation about his equipment with anyone so knowledgeable, regardless of age. Our DS was not yet 2 at the time.

    He drew pictures, asked questions, pretended, and wanted to read only about his obsession. If you have a kid who does this, there's no doubt about it!

    I'd say Disney princesses could count, but only if it goes to this sort of extreme. There's a big difference between liking Disney princesses and the GT-style obsession!


    Kriston
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    "Agreed. Though we just took the WISC and I was surprised at how much FOK stuff there was in it. That stuff could be hothoused if you knew it was on the test. "-Kriston

    I'll agree with that that, but I still think hot housing your child on FOK stuff still won't put them in the top 2% in the WISC. FOK counts accounts for what, 1 or 2 subcategories? I believe they are not sufficiently weighted to carry a FSIQ into HG or PG territory if the innate reasoning skills are lacking.
    Dottie, please jump in on this if I am misinformed here.

    "Two, you can hothouse to get great scores. There was a study done on the SB. You can use the SB to hot house or use the pre-k books etc. You can gain an average of 13 IQ points, almost a standard deviation. So you could go from 66th percentile to 95th, approximately. But I think it only works in the younger set."- Ren

    This may be true of the SB, in fact, this is the reason some don't like the test as much anymore, the score can present as inflated. It's often viewed as outdated.
    However, You cannot hot house a child into an HG or PG score on the WISC IV, I'll stand by that statement. The test has been updated to make it harder to ceiling out.
    IQ is supposed to be measuring the extent to which a child can learn, not what they already know. I would't defend a statement that processing speed and WMI accurately measure IQ, or even claim I could tangibly tell you what IQ is.
    However, the major thing I have noticed with both my HG child and my PG child is the how quickly they master concepts and how much they remember and from how far back they have retained it from(although WMI doesn't exactly measure this). In terms of these categories, there is a vast difference if you compare the two of them with a child who is average or even moderately gifted. Indeed, there is a noticible difference between the two of them even though they are only 3/10th of 1% difference in terms or their score.
    Some view the brain as like a muscle in terms of being able to excercise it and improve performance.

    I'll agree to a point, but I don't think you can hot house a child into thinking more quickly and remembering more.

    Lastly, there are lots of generalizations and stereotypes concerning how a gifted child is supposed "to be". I think we can all agree that sterotypes can be wrong and sometimes harmful. I think it's outrageous that someone could come up with a checklist of gifted traits and make a subjective determination whether or not a child is gifted based on matching up perfectly with the list. This has been done in our school district, which is why I cringe when I see these lists.


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    Hey 'Neato,

    What do you think about GAI as a measure for the WISC IV? My daughter had really significant scatter and the psychologist argued (as does Harcourt Brace) to use the GAI rather than the FSIQ for her GT referral.Although she qualified both ways, her scores were driven way down by the WM and Ps scores.

    You, Grinity and Dottie seem to be the testing experts on this forum so I'd love to have your opinions.

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    Thanks Dottie

    So far DD9, who seems to me as I've said elsewhere to me to BE mg but with much higher Ruf level behaviors/ traits/indicators, seems to be just bored with simple level stuff-- and I've seen her do that in testing situations, but time will tell. Her strongest score on all tests is Fluid Reasoning (or its equivalent.)

    Down deep I feel , as my father used to point out to his varied and ridiculously GT family, IQ tests scores measure how well you take IQ tests. I like the insistent demystification but it sounds much better when we're all in the top 1% of the pile...

    This forum is so great because I feel that we can oh so subjectively begin to tease out the beyond the test issues.


    aline


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    Aline,

    First of all the only thing I'm an expert at is being opinionated! smile

    Thanks for the vote of confidence, I usually rely on Dottie's wisdom, she is the test info guru.

    I like discussing the tests and what they mean, but if you get into a discussion with me concerning what IQ means, it will most likely deviate into a very cloudy and abstract dialogue.........then it will ultimately circle back into meaninglessness......see what I mean? smile

    I guess I'm saying, is, I think the test measures something, I'm just not sure what.

    And I've heard that some "high IQ" people just don't test well and aren't identified that way, although, I understand it's less common.

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    Thank you for all the comments. I have asked the library for Marica Gross' book Exceptionally Gifted Children and I look forward to seeing the differences between auditory and non-linear learners.

    I asked my husband about his obsessional type learning. And he remembered going to the library with his father at 4 to learn all about space travel. But he said that DD asks questions about a picture in a story book to understand the story behind the story. "What is that guy doing?" He said he never did that, her obsession is to understand the whole situation. She just gathers information as you goes along and files it somewhere, because it comes up again, when you least expect it. So I am curious how it all defines itself by learning styles.

    Everyone was very helpful.

    The public gifted school is trying to go back to the SB, the school board made them go to the OLSAT and they are getting moderately gifted kids.

    Though that is an interesting one. My friend, whose son scored 98th percentile on the SB for Hunter, got the Kindergarten-test prep for the OLSAT. He was getting them all wrong when starting, now after prepping aces. And from her perspective he is going to get into a great school with an accelerated curriculum.

    At the end of the day, we provide the best education for our kids and they have to figure out what to do with it. Never thought I would go to Wall Street. And I think that really works for non-linear types.

    Ren

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    Son 2e, wide discrepancy between CogAT-Terranova
    by astronomama - 03/23/24 07:21 AM
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