Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 195 guests, and 32 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Word_Nerd93, jenjunpr, calicocat, Heidi_Hunter, Dilore
    11,421 Registered Users
    April
    S M T W T F S
    1 2 3 4 5 6
    7 8 9 10 11 12 13
    14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    21 22 23 24 25 26 27
    28 29 30
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    W
    Wren Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    W
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    I have to give Val points for making me rethink this.

    And I thought about why I push the technique on the piano practice. Because I am not so strident on many other things.

    I think because I am drawn into it. I have to sit in her lessons and help her with practice. It started because she was so young and I had to help her learn the pieces. The piano teacher has a very high bar for DD and, as a result, I push her to play to those expectations. And she can, she does deliver.

    In her gymnastics, her coach has high expectations also. He wants to start seriously training her next year but I don't push her in the playground. Because I am not involved.

    So the posts made me rethink my position. Which is what this forum is about.

    I do want her to learn good habits. And I still feel the piano lessons is a good training ground but I do think the focus there is based on the teacher and being drawn into it.

    Ren

    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    A
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    A
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    Hi there...wow when I read the story you wrote about your DD regarding piano and gymnastics and the expectations for those I was amazed at how it paralleled my childhood. I'm so glad you're rethinking your position and here's why...simply from my own experience of course.

    It's true that pushing a child can de-motivate them to the point of them questioning if they're ever good enough. I always dug my heels in because I too loved playing the fast paced piano pieces but I wanted to play them my way...not the teacher's way. I was considered gifted in piano and athletics. Gymnastics was the same for me...I was pushed by my parents (particularly my mother) and by the coaches. They wanted me to try out for the olympics, etc. The pressure to perform to such a high standard continuously not only for a teacher and/or coach as well as my mother's friends on que is really a set-up for failure. My mother used to call me a quitter when I wouldn't put on a piano concert for her friends and she would guilt me by saying I was refusing God's gift to me.

    I didn't enjoy playing with pennies on my hand nor did I enjoy the rigorous hours of playing each and every day with the metronome sitting on top of the piano..."click, click, click."

    I see the same personality traits in my DD and even though I have had some real negative experiences with pressure...it is so hard not to do the same thing. Children do not see the world through an adult's eyes...they see it through their own. They haven't experienced what we have and as parents, because of our own experiences, we try so hard to help our children avoid the mistakes we made, etc. I have had numerous opportunities to capitalize on my gifts, particularly in music, and unfortunately I refused them all simply because of my own angst. Now of course I regret those decisions and certainly don't want my daughter to fall into the same trap. It's a fine line between a gentle nudge in the direction we want our kids to go and the push that I have referred to above. It's hard to find that balance.

    I wish you the best...it's nice to hear that you are open minded about how to handle your DD's gifts.

    Azuil

    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    A
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    A
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    There's a different between encouraging and "pushing." Pushing for me anyway involved a lot of angry words and guilt laid upon me from my parents, mostly my mother. There was never any room for experimentation it was always "black and white" and for me...well my world has ALWAYS been grey.

    If my daughter is interested in a sport or learning an instrument...it will be a requirement for me that she stick with it for the year and if she decides she is no longer interested after a year, then she can quit. I was never given the option of quitting or the option of experimenting with the music. For me...music was painful to my ears if a wrong note was played. I'd be sitting at a concert and a wrong note would just sound like nails scratching on a black board. I couldn't even stand my own wrong notes so I was quite the perfectionist and would get very angry with myself if I made mistakes...I didn't need anyone else breathing down my neck telling me about mistakes I made...particularly since my mother had no clue how to play the piano.

    Your DD sounds like she is looking for attention. If you're natural inclincation is to not say anything...then it sounds like to me she needs you to say more "naturally" (as best you can) in order for her to feel that you're interested in what she's doing. For her she doesn't have enough of her own internal drive to keep her motivated and is trying to tell you the best way she can that she needs your help to encourage her; to notice that she's trying, or not as the case may be.

    I wish you the best of luck!

    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    W
    Wren Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    W
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    Thank you for your input. It is so great to hear people's experiences and get insight. But it is still so tough to make the decisions for your child and wonder if it is the right one.

    I was an overscheduled child, but never pushed. But I chose figure skating. And because it started out so easy, my discipline to push later on was hit and miss. I did not have good habits to push myself. It think for some kids these do have to be learned.

    Though figure skating is a terrible sport. No pads, you force your young body to go as fast as it can and then jump. Before you land properly, you land on knees, head, bang into the boards at high speeds. I have known kids who broke ankles and didn't know until they took off their skates. Blisters and blisters breaking in new skates. And these are custom made skates.

    Anyway, I digress.

    I could get a piano teacher that had lower standards but that is kind of silly at this point. Why teach her to be sloppy? I do not make her practice hours. We decided against that. But she has enough that she has to practice about 45 minutes. And she gets Wed off because she has Mandarin and gets home late.

    As mentioned, her gymnastics coach pushes her and she likes gymnastics. But she will have to decide between gymnastics and ballet in another year. If she gets into the NYC ballet school, she will probably choose ballet and then she will have to strive for perfection or she is out. But that will be her choice.

    I do ask her to perform for her recitals. She won't play for anyone if I ask but last year, on a rainy day, her swimming coach said that she saw the piano in the playroom and started playing for her mates and they were amazed,and because they complimented her, she kept on playing. So these kids find their own motivation.

    I did tell her that she has to decide what to pursue but there are choices I make. Like music, science programs, mandarin and a sport. But just like I make her take swimming (we live on the ocean in the summer) and tennis. I plan to start sailing with her. I don't expect her to sail around the world or even compete. But just know how to sail. I have found these things useful as an adult. When I came to NYC, I could go to tennis parties because I could play tennis. I could go on a sailing trip because I could sail. I met people that way. Better than going to bars.

    Ren

    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    A
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    A
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    There is also a book calle "The Five Love Langues of Children." It is a fascinating book and honestly it has helped my relationship with my DD. It applies to all types of kids...gifted or not in my opinion. Children have a natural love language and although praise, affirmation, acts of service, etc. all help in making a child feel loved...children have a primary love language (or 2) that they identify more with though it is not something they can always necessarily express to you, so they will wind up doing things behaviorally to get their needs met.

    My DD's primary love language is quality time. She thorougly enjoys our attention and it never seems enough to be honest so it can quite exhausting at times. Boundaries still have to exist so that she understands that she can't be the center of everyone's world 24/7. Affirmation also seems to be a strong "love language" of hers.

    Take care and though raising children is probably the most difficult thing we do...I would also say it's the most rewarding as well!

    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 921
    J
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    J
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 921
    Quote
    There's a different between encouraging and "pushing." Pushing for me anyway involved a lot of angry words and guilt laid upon me from my parents, mostly my mother. There was never any room for experimentation it was always "black and white" and for me...well my world has ALWAYS been grey.

    If my daughter is interested in a sport or learning an instrument...it will be a requirement for me that she stick with it for the year and if she decides she is no longer interested after a year, then she can quit. I was never given the option of quitting or the option of experimenting with the music. For me...music was painful to my ears if a wrong note was played. I'd be sitting at a concert and a wrong note would just sound like nails scratching on a black board. I couldn't even stand my own wrong notes so I was quite the perfectionist and would get very angry with myself if I made mistakes...I didn't need anyone else breathing down my neck telling me about mistakes I made...particularly since my mother had no clue how to play the piano.

    Interesting, as my childhood was the exact opposite. I was never pushed. I was never "forced" or even encouraged (I like that by the way, it's so true - there being a difference) to stick with something. As a perfectionist by nature, if I felt it was too difficult, I quit (even if it was something I could do). And my parents said ok. And now, as an adult, I have to force myself NOT to quit (especially in the workforce having mouths to feed). I settle for MUCH less than what my potential is. I talk myself out of anything and everything that requires a wee bit of effort, even though I'm perfectly capable of grabbing the bull by the horns and taking a long ride. It's why I'm at the bottom of the totem pole; it's why I'm overweight, etc. Some see it as lazy, but it's a deep rooted fear now... fear of failure, fear of success. Thankfully, I have begun a walk on a journey with DS which has helped me gain a little confidence again.

    I see the SAME traits in DS6. And like you, we have told him he MUST finish a season or a year of something he tries new. If he doesn't like it, he can quit and try something else. During his very first baseball game, he missed the ball or struck out or got hit with the ball. I'm not sure which (how sad). But he decided he would just give up. I wouldn't even let him get out of the dugout. I told him he had to play the entire season. Period. And that he will not always be the best at everything. Fast forward to today, five seasons (fall and spring) later, and he's made it on the all star team. There are still kids way better than he is, but "forcing" him NOT to choose the easy way out, as I did, will hopefully start him on a path of keeping himself encouraged as well. And well, he's ok with not being the best at everything. smile

    Joined: Aug 2008
    Posts: 574
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Aug 2008
    Posts: 574
    This has been yet another interesting DITD discussion that has prompted a bit of self-examination.

    I know that I've occasionally been hard on our son over the last year, and that my expectations have been too high at times. I have to remind myself: "HE'S ONLY 8!!" It's so easy to for me to forget about the need for legos & sandbox time, especially when the other activities are piling high.

    At one point this spring, he had double homework loads as he prepared to participate in a special field trip with another class. This was the proverbial straw, and he made it clear that there was too much going on in his life at the moment. Right on the spot, while he sat on my lap in tears, I made a series of phone calls to bow out of a few other commitments and in an instant I could see the relief in his face.

    This wasn't really a case of "pushing" on my part, but looking back, I know I should have seen the warning signs and not let the pressures mount.

    The only requirement outside of schoolwork is piano instruction. He's finishing up his fourth year of lessons and other than a perfunctory dislike of practice, he'll sometimes admit to enjoying himself. My goal for practice is about half of the teacher's: no more than about 20mins/day, 4 times/week. And despite this reduced time, he's well ahead of his teacher's expectations... and that's good enough for me.

    Despite the "requirement," being the kind and benevolent parent that I am, I've relaxed my expectations so that when we need to "let something go" in a busy day or week, it's usually piano. And I'm always impressed with how well he does even after a two or three week break. (Gee.. it's almost as though the breaks help!!)

    For sports, he's been taking karate for three years, and tennis for two. While I definitely encourage these sports, his level of involvement is entirely up to him. With karate in particular, I'm 100% hands-off, relying on peer & instructor pressure to keep him motivated. (And after a couple facial bruises with new weapons recently, he's stepped up the practice all on his own!) With tennis, I'm involved only to the extent that he needs me for practice. I know where his coaches want him to focus his attention each week, and will direct accordingly, but otherwise it's up to him. Heck... we even manage to enjoy ourselves at the same time!

    It's tough to hear the glowing praise of his coaches, teachers and instructors and NOT turn around and push him to the extent of his abilities. I know that he can perform even better ... and REALLY impress those other adults... but right now he's REALLY having fun and I don't want to screw that up. He's only 8.


    Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    A
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    A
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    Having my own experiences with music and sports does help in raising my children however it really is so easy to forget and wind up pushing too hard. I also forget that my daughter is not even 5 yet I talk to her like an adult. I have difficulty talking to a 4 yr. old on a 4 yr. old level I guess. I'm a very analytical, logical person.

    I was a gymnast for 11 yrs. and was pushed very hard by coaches...telling me that I was fat at 8 when in fact I was too underweight (you could see my ribs). They made you get back up if you got hurt, lift weights, 50 push ups, etc., etc. I was taught to ignore pain...I remember being thrown into a wall because I didn't want to get back up on the balance beam. This and the constant requests to perform for my parents' friends was too much and I would just simply push back and refuse knowing the verbal abuse that would ensue.

    In spite of all those bad experiences...I have grown to appreciate the gifts I have had and regret not fulfilling them, particularly piano. Gymnastics is a nasty sport that has left me permanently damaged physically. I was told to choose between figure skating and gymnastics...I can't say how figure skating would have gone but gymnastics was hard on my body. Don't forget ballet and tap when I was little.

    I too was way too busy...piano, concert band and orchestra (I played the French Horn), gymnastics, and diving. I'd be at school at 6 AM to practice diving, then throughout the day I'd play in the band and orchestra, then at the end of the day I'd be at gymnastics practice. Keep in mind that your children will be less likely to tell you that they are overwhelmed because they really do want to please you and want you to be proud of them. I don't feel that I had much of an opportunity to be a kid.

    My best advice in regards to this particular issue I guess would be to watch for the signs of being overwhelmed (passive aggressive behaviors such as silence when requested to perform...they want it to be their choice not yours...it's hard to be put on the spot, particularly if you're a perfectionist). It's humiliating to be required to perform for your parents' friends and have the fear of God in you that you might make a mistake and look stupid. Other signs to look for might be an over exaggerated response to something that appears quite menial. Talk to your kids and allow them to be honest about their feelings, they have to know that they can trust you in order to open up.

    I like it when I hear that people want their kids to be kids and not mini adults. I have to remind myself of that all the time in spite of what I know. I wrote a paper on adult Narcissism via their children...in other words a parent living vicariously through their child which is a dangerous thing to do because their very identity winds up being up for collatoral and is based on your performance, looks, etc...as it was for me. As long as I looked good enough and performed well enough...then my mother felt good enough. Needless to say it didn't go over well however on a positive note, and yes there is one...we have a fantastic relationship now, we really do.

    Sorry I write novels here apparently! :o)

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Originally Posted by Azuil
    Gymnastics is a nasty sport that has left me permanently damaged physically. I was told to choose between figure skating and gymnastics...I can't say how figure skating would have gone but gymnastics was hard on my body. Don't forget ballet and tap when I was little.

    Many sports right now are nasty and very hard on children's bodies. In skating, children are expected to land double jumps well before their bodies are sufficiently developed to be able to handle the strain. A lot of the grace has gone out of skating and many people feel that the sport has turned into jumping contests that require ever-more spectacular feats. Many elite skaters end up needing hip surgery before they're 25 to repair damage done by years of slamming onto the ice.

    In baseball, young pitchers are forced to keep throwing, and, as Azuil said, told to ignore pain. Ballet, gymnastics...the list goes on, and it's very upsetting.

    Originally Posted by Azuil
    I like it when I hear that people want their kids to be kids and not mini adults. I wrote a paper on adult Narcissism via their children...in other words a parent living vicariously through their child which is a dangerous thing to do....

    Yes I agree with you completely! It really, really bugs me that parents of gifted kids get accused of "not letting our kids be kids" because we let them read books when they're four. And it bugs me even more that these same people turn a blind eye to parents who shout their 8-year-olds into tears at athletic events.

    Which parent is forcing adulthood onto a kid? Me, because I bought a third-grade BrainQuest book for my five-year-old because she begged me for it? Or parents who yell their way through soccer games, expect a kid to give 100% at every practice (year round, of course), and all the while tell the kid to ignore pain?

    Sheesh!

    Val

    (PS, Wren, thanks for the kind words in your first post of this thread)

    Last edited by Val; 05/27/10 11:25 AM.
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    A
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    A
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    Hey Val...I hope you don't think I was referring to you when I wrote about parents of gifted kids not allowing them to be kids. I'm so sorry if it did.

    I think it's fantastic that your child is so excited about learning!

    I wrote the paper on Parental Narcissism because that was my mother then...not now thankfully. I am a mother of a child whom I suspect is gifted and am in the process of finding someone to test her simply because I want to do my best to provide her with the appropriate amount of nurturing both emotionally and intellectually. My own experience does not necessarily mean I am infallable and have all the answers...I know what needs to change, it's a matter of being able to apply those changes so I don't make the same mistakes with my daughter as my mother did with me.

    So sorry I go on and on LOL I really do talk too much I think...gee and I complain about that in my daughter...go figure!

    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 407
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 407
    After watching so many gifties fail, I decided on how I would handle these issues. She is only 12 and going to 8th so I hopefully see what happens.

    Before Kinder, I just went with what her level was in any subject. She did not wish to read, but loved science and art. The main issue was enthusiasm for us. If she was interested in anything, we sought it out. I also introduced her to museums and many children's museum where she could touch, etc. She went to a great preschool where she took french and she did learn a lot.

    We kept checking the book "acids and bases" out of the library and she could not get enough of it.

    In Kinder, we began homework. It was issued at this school solely to learn how to do it and establish habits. We always did the extra credit. I knew that she would hit puberty and these habits had better be in her mind or she would become a bad statistic. I instilled in her the work ethic - which anyone needs. However, it was a great school and fairly flexible.
    My favorite assignment was to get a book from home and pick out all the nouns in it. Well, she grabbed "Once Upon a Potty" knowing how I felt about these kinds of words. She found all the nouns and enjoyed the assignment tremendously.

    She decided to read in first grade and jumped three grade levels in one month. That is how she does things and I accept it. She is always above grade level and then, with all the information she has collected, she puts it all together and boom, she excels. This is not uncommon for gifties.

    Now, she is in middle school and is more defiant with me. She will ask questions, but on her timing. But, my rules apply that she has to do the extra credit and all her work. But, she does it herself.

    I insist that she joined band and choir and now it is her life. She fits in better with the students there. She is expected to be active in two clubs. She chose science fair (and went to state) and I chose yearbook. There are not many clubs here and as she learns the yearbook applications, will love the design aspect. She is also in GT club, which was not very active, but they took some cool trips.

    Basically, most of the students here just want a "c" in any class and we expect "A"s. I have her enrolled in a community college English course this summer so she may stay in band and choir and also take hs level Spanish. At least, she will have to think.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Originally Posted by Azuil
    Hey Val...I hope you don't think I was referring to you when I wrote about parents of gifted kids not allowing them to be kids. I'm so sorry if it did.

    Oh no! I wasn't referring to you at all! eek

    I was referring to the principal who accused me of not letting my son be a kid when I asked about his policy on acceleration ("Never done it. Never will."). And the kindergarten teacher who told me that "silent e can be damaging at this age." I was also talking about the parents who constantly shouted GET TO THE BALL, <NAME>!! while watching their six-year-old play soccer. The parents in that league were so bad, the people who ran it had to erect signs saying "No shouting during matches, please."

    I was definitely NOT referring to you. I was agreeing with you!

    So, I'm sorry if I caused confusion or sounded rude!

    Val

    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    W
    Wren Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    W
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    I love that "silent e can be damaging at this age".

    I am not being critical but the whole statement, "let a kid be a kid". What does that mean? I am on one extreme with the overscheduling and so many kids are on the other watching TV. I will ride my bike to pick her up after school today. She goes to the playground for 25 minutes after school with her chums, then we go on the bike to gymnastics.

    Is she suffering because she get 25 minutes and not 60? This summer she goes to swim or tennis camp in the morning and spends the rest of the day on the beach. Except for a weekly piano lesson and practice everyday. The kid in scheduled day camp from 8 am to 5 pm. Do they get to be a kid more?

    I am not sure how you let a kid be a kid. My child does not have any siblings, does not have to help with a younger sister or brother while "mommy gets dinner ready". Do those kinds of chores get in the way of being a kid?

    When you start talking about giving responsibilities, including practicing piano or keeping your room tidy, when does it become good habits and not allowing a child to be a child?

    I read Ellipses with real interest, especially her phrase, "too many gifties that fail".

    DD is still 5, for a few more months. And sometimes I think I am so crazy with the worry, so it is good to know I am not the only one obsessing.

    Ren

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Originally Posted by Wren
    I love that "silent e can be damaging at this age".

    She said it to me as a warning: don't let your five-year-old read. Oh well.


    Originally Posted by Wren
    When you start talking about giving responsibilities, including practicing piano or keeping your room tidy, when does it become good habits and not allowing a child to be a child?

    I think that the line gets crossed when the child feels forced to do non-school, non-chore-related activities solely to meet parental expectations and without any internal motivation. I agree that this is a hard question to answer.

    There are the easy-to-read situations, like the parents who yell at their kids during sporting events or parents who go onto a skating rink and crab at their kids for not doing a perfect axel. These cases are the ones where (I think) the parents are living vicariously through the kids, as Azuil said.

    Alternatively, it seems to me that this situation isn't at all the same as the story about the boy who wanted to quit baseball because he encountered some difficulty. His parent told him that he had to finish out the season. Sometimes it's good to be made to finish something you start.


    Originally Posted by Wren
    I read Ellipses with real interest, especially her phrase, "too many gifties that fail".

    People can do poorly for lots of reasons: academically, gifted kids who are never challenged at school can fall apart when they finally encounter challenging material. They can also "fail" if they get pushed too hard and too long to be perfect at something. I think it's important to ask a child --- in a neutral way and maybe by a third party sometimes --- if they really want to do an activity or if they feel forced.

    Again, I'm not advocating that kids should be able to quit when something gets tough. I'm saying that when a parent's interests in Joey's athletic performance become more important than Joey's own ideas, it's time to re-evaluate.

    If a child is performing just to make a parent happy (yet the child is miserable inside, as Azuil so eloquently described) the parent isn't letting the child be the child that s/he is. For me, this is the crucial idea. This is the same mistake that teachers and others make when they tell us we're not letting our kids be kids because we let them do algebra when they're nine. We get frustrated because we know we aren't hothousing them: we're just letting them be the kids that they are, and we wish the schools would respect that.

    Hope that makes sense.

    Val

    Last edited by Val; 05/27/10 10:41 AM. Reason: clarity
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 921
    J
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    J
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 921
    I've seen kids get smacked or down right yelled during a baseball practice of game, for merely throwing the ball a little to the left or right of the first baseman, or not making it to first 1.2 seconds prior to runner getting there. These kids are 5 and 6. To me, that is wrong.

    Sure I have yelled to DS6 to throw the ball TO the first baseman (actually he plays first, but still). Or I have "yelled" to him to get back in his stance when he's up to bat. But I would never consider smackin' him upside the head or making him do laps because he missed a ball during a game or sit there and tell him he'll never amount to anything, etc, for him not being an MLB caliber player at 6 years old... It happens; I see it all the time. And it's sad to me.


    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    I just say "Yay!" smile

    Val

    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 247
    J
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    J
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 247
    Originally Posted by Val
    I think that the line gets crossed when the child feels forced to do non-school, non-chore-related activities solely to meet parental expectations and without any internal motivation. I agree that this is a hard question to answer.
    ...
    I think it's important to ask a child --- in a neutral way and maybe by a third party sometimes --- if they really want to do an activity or if they feel forced.
    DH and I have had this discussion recently. DS is involved in one extracurricular activity, at our insistence. It amounts to two hours per week and we're not that diligent with practice. We aren't so concerned with mastery as with the process. We don't intervene in the class, we casually observe from the sidelines. The only thing we've told DS with regard to the class is that he do his best and put forth some effort and he does.

    If one were to ask DS10 if he really wanted to do it or if he felt forced, the answers would be "NO" and "yes" respectively. I hate that, although, I've seen him at class and he's engaged and having fun. The hardest part of it all for DS is stopping the fun of playing with friends or whatever else he's doing to go do this activity. He thinks he's missing out on something. Plainly put, if allowed, DS would do nothing but play all day. Unstructured play time is very important to us for him and we see to it that he gets plenty, but we also want to have an exposure to other things. If DS came up with an alternative or was interested in doing anything else, of course, that would be taken into consideration.

    I feel we're doing the right thing by forcing this issue, but I do have moments of wondering if there will be some long-term deep-seated resentment because we made him devote two hours a week to an activity that got in the way of what he wanted to do. Only time will tell, I guess.

    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 921
    J
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    J
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 921
    Originally Posted by Val
    I just say "Yay!" smile

    Val

    smile I wish that's all I could say, but I help coach now. whistle

    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 683
    K
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 683
    I've been following this with interest. DD8 takes piano and hates to practice. At the same time, she has a fantastic ear and corrects the teacher if she makes a mistake. DD8 analyzes other people's playing with amazing depth. She has been described as an adult in a kid's body when she talks about music. Her playing improves significantly when she bothers to put in minimal effort. She often won't play things as written (she'll go up or down an octave or play with the melody). She loves her teacher (I liken it to a therapy session). She says that she loves piano. I'm torn whether to keep paying for lessons when she doesn't seem motivated. I don't want to push her to practice.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Originally Posted by JJsMom
    Originally Posted by Val
    I just say "Yay!" smile

    Val

    smile I wish that's all I could say, but I help coach now. whistle

    I bet that's lots of fun and completely exhausting at the same time! I used to think that six-year-old soccer coaching was a lot like herding kittens: the kids followed coach (or the ball) everywhere, in a big tight group.

    Well, everyone except my then-six-year-old, who would plop down and study the field in the middle of a game (What cool grass! Look at the rock I found!)

    Val

    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    A
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    A
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 39
    Oh good! No you didn't sound rude at all...For whatever reason I was thinking I offended you and I reread your post just now and it doesn't sound like that at all...obviously I've been up too long LOL my 11 mo. old son isn't sleeping...literally!

    I am shocked that the school was so unsupportive...this is what scares me though supposedly we're in a very highly rated school system...let's hope this is the case.

    I've worked in schools from Elementary up to High School and have worked with kids as young as 4 up through the elderly. Schools can really make things so much more difficult than necessary though I know that the people who work there are taxed and have a ton of pressure on them to adhere to the strict policies that are in place for educating children with special needs whether it is in regards to a LD, gifted, or otherwise.

    This is a great site for folks...I wish I had know about it sooner...but better now than later. :o)

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Originally Posted by Azuil
    Oh good! No you didn't sound rude at all...For whatever reason I was thinking I offended you and I reread your post just now and it doesn't sound like that at all...obviously I've been up too long LOL my 11 mo. old son isn't sleeping...literally!

    Thanks. I actually went back and added the part about "I agree completely."

    Sorry that your son isn't sleeping...I think it's fair to say that everyone here knows your pain....

    Val

    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    W
    Wren Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    W
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    Hi Knute,

    Your post described a similar situation to mine where the school, which is a leading music school in NYC for elementary grade students, pushed me because of my DD's talent. So part of me felt compelled to push her to be as good as she could be.

    The process we went through this year made me realize she didn't have the passion to be as good as she could be. And I know kids that do. And I cannot make her have the passion because she has the talent. But I can make her be somewhat disciplined so that she explores her talent and maybe make some choices to use it later on.

    Just like I told her that if she really want the NYC ballet, she should start doing some stretching everyday, starting in Sept. But it is her choice. I said I would help her with what to do but she has to want it as part of her routine. And I will help her with the discipline. I wish someone would help me with the discipline to exercise everyday and not eat crap. But that is another forum...

    We moved up bike size, from 12 inch wheels, where she really couldn't get any speed, to 16 inch wheels, where she barely can touch the ground with the seat as low as it goes. We were at the beach this weekend and she was riding and actually doing pretty well, but sometimes, stopped, the bike fell over, she fell with it because she couldn't really reach. The attitude is so bad. That is what I do not want. The crappy attitude. Blaming me, first because I was giving instructions. And then I wasn't but wasn't close enough when she went down.

    Her recital is tomorrow and she is playing 2 pieces fast and being a little sloppy with the speed. I have been trying to get her to slow down slightly, a smidgeon I tell her. But she loves the flying fingers and the speed to play them. She loves her talent that way but not perfectionism to play it perfectly. I thought of that movie Vitus where he was playing a piece for a new teacher and the teacher asked him to play it differently but he didn't want to. The teacher obviously pushed his way. But it is like that when they can make their fingers fly and they can learn these difficult pieces.

    Ah well.

    Ren

    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 683
    K
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 683
    It sounds like you are willing to keep going for a while longer. I actually told my DD that it was up to her if she wants to continue piano. I told her that I was stepping out of it for a week. If I didn't hear her practice at least once, we would take a little break from lessons. Well, she didn't practice even once. We took her out of lessons for a couple weeks. She cried and then proceeded to practice almost everyday during her break (no prompting from anyone). We started back up with lessons and we are back to no practicing. I think that I will let her finish her summer recital and then try another break. This would be so much easier if she just didn't want to play! Sometimes it is so hard to figure out the right course.
    Hope that the recital went well today.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,297
    Originally Posted by knute974
    I actually told my DD that it was up to her if she wants to continue piano. I told her that I was stepping out of it for a week. If I didn't hear her practice at least once, we would take a little break from lessons. Well, she didn't practice even once. We took her out of lessons for a couple weeks. She cried and then proceeded to practice almost everyday during her break (no prompting from anyone). We started back up with lessons and we are back to no practicing. I think that I will let her finish her summer recital and then try another break.

    Sounds like a situation where you can't see the forest for the trees.

    Perhaps if you give her a break for a while, it will give her time to decide whether or not she truly wants to play.

    Val

    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 353
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 353
    Knute,
    DS will not practice drums or oboe which he takes lessons (or did until recently). However, piano, which I just let him play around with and guide him slightly, he'll noodle at for long periods of time. I think he just gets fed up with doing things someone else's way and just wants to do his thing for a while.

    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 683
    K
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 683
    Originally Posted by elh0706
    I think he just gets fed up with doing things someone else's way and just wants to do his thing for a while.

    I wonder if this is part of her issue. Also, she is dyslexic and wasn't very interested in reading the "less interesting" books. Now that she has reached a certain of mastery, she enjoys reading on her own. Maybe she is frustrated by some of the foundational stuff that she needs to do on piano too?
    Thanks for letting me think out loud about this.

    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    W
    Wren Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    W
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    The recital went well. There was a 12 year old who was really remarkable and DD was influenced by that. And she clearly likes the fawning as people compliement her. Being so small with fingers flying, many people tend to comment.

    So she get enthused, wants to be able to play the Mozart piece the 12 year old played when she is 10. But carrying that over to everyday...

    I was thinking how long do I promote the piano. I figure that 12 is a good age. When puberty comes along, I am not sure how much I want to fight on different levels.

    And we will see what happens with the ballet. Does she work as hard at it? Does she make the NYC ballet school next year? Funny, she does make a real effort with Mandarin. But that is just knowing things. Not working to make it "perfect". If she makes the ballet school, eventually it becomes many days a week and performances start in a few years. But that is "if". I can see ballet becoming a passion. Piano is just a pride thing.

    Ren

    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 407
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 407
    Great outcome, Wren! When my daughter has a goal, she works harder.

    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    W
    Wren Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    W
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 1,689
    Even better feedback. The school is so impressed with her they asked her teacher if she would give another concert. Don't think we are inclined as it cuts into beach weekends, but the feedback made DD feel really good about her playing and the work she put into it.

    We really focused on how well she did and we are very proud that she worked very hard at practicing to make it that good. Repeating the message a few times. It played well.(pun intended)

    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

    Moderated by  M-Moderator, Mark D. 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by blackcat - 04/17/24 08:15 AM
    Jo Boaler and Gifted Students
    by thx1138 - 04/12/24 02:37 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 04/08/24 12:40 PM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5