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    Joined: Jan 2008
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    Wren Offline OP
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    I have to give Val points for making me rethink this.

    And I thought about why I push the technique on the piano practice. Because I am not so strident on many other things.

    I think because I am drawn into it. I have to sit in her lessons and help her with practice. It started because she was so young and I had to help her learn the pieces. The piano teacher has a very high bar for DD and, as a result, I push her to play to those expectations. And she can, she does deliver.

    In her gymnastics, her coach has high expectations also. He wants to start seriously training her next year but I don't push her in the playground. Because I am not involved.

    So the posts made me rethink my position. Which is what this forum is about.

    I do want her to learn good habits. And I still feel the piano lessons is a good training ground but I do think the focus there is based on the teacher and being drawn into it.

    Ren

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    Hi there...wow when I read the story you wrote about your DD regarding piano and gymnastics and the expectations for those I was amazed at how it paralleled my childhood. I'm so glad you're rethinking your position and here's why...simply from my own experience of course.

    It's true that pushing a child can de-motivate them to the point of them questioning if they're ever good enough. I always dug my heels in because I too loved playing the fast paced piano pieces but I wanted to play them my way...not the teacher's way. I was considered gifted in piano and athletics. Gymnastics was the same for me...I was pushed by my parents (particularly my mother) and by the coaches. They wanted me to try out for the olympics, etc. The pressure to perform to such a high standard continuously not only for a teacher and/or coach as well as my mother's friends on que is really a set-up for failure. My mother used to call me a quitter when I wouldn't put on a piano concert for her friends and she would guilt me by saying I was refusing God's gift to me.

    I didn't enjoy playing with pennies on my hand nor did I enjoy the rigorous hours of playing each and every day with the metronome sitting on top of the piano..."click, click, click."

    I see the same personality traits in my DD and even though I have had some real negative experiences with pressure...it is so hard not to do the same thing. Children do not see the world through an adult's eyes...they see it through their own. They haven't experienced what we have and as parents, because of our own experiences, we try so hard to help our children avoid the mistakes we made, etc. I have had numerous opportunities to capitalize on my gifts, particularly in music, and unfortunately I refused them all simply because of my own angst. Now of course I regret those decisions and certainly don't want my daughter to fall into the same trap. It's a fine line between a gentle nudge in the direction we want our kids to go and the push that I have referred to above. It's hard to find that balance.

    I wish you the best...it's nice to hear that you are open minded about how to handle your DD's gifts.

    Azuil

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    There's a different between encouraging and "pushing." Pushing for me anyway involved a lot of angry words and guilt laid upon me from my parents, mostly my mother. There was never any room for experimentation it was always "black and white" and for me...well my world has ALWAYS been grey.

    If my daughter is interested in a sport or learning an instrument...it will be a requirement for me that she stick with it for the year and if she decides she is no longer interested after a year, then she can quit. I was never given the option of quitting or the option of experimenting with the music. For me...music was painful to my ears if a wrong note was played. I'd be sitting at a concert and a wrong note would just sound like nails scratching on a black board. I couldn't even stand my own wrong notes so I was quite the perfectionist and would get very angry with myself if I made mistakes...I didn't need anyone else breathing down my neck telling me about mistakes I made...particularly since my mother had no clue how to play the piano.

    Your DD sounds like she is looking for attention. If you're natural inclincation is to not say anything...then it sounds like to me she needs you to say more "naturally" (as best you can) in order for her to feel that you're interested in what she's doing. For her she doesn't have enough of her own internal drive to keep her motivated and is trying to tell you the best way she can that she needs your help to encourage her; to notice that she's trying, or not as the case may be.

    I wish you the best of luck!

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    Wren Offline OP
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    Thank you for your input. It is so great to hear people's experiences and get insight. But it is still so tough to make the decisions for your child and wonder if it is the right one.

    I was an overscheduled child, but never pushed. But I chose figure skating. And because it started out so easy, my discipline to push later on was hit and miss. I did not have good habits to push myself. It think for some kids these do have to be learned.

    Though figure skating is a terrible sport. No pads, you force your young body to go as fast as it can and then jump. Before you land properly, you land on knees, head, bang into the boards at high speeds. I have known kids who broke ankles and didn't know until they took off their skates. Blisters and blisters breaking in new skates. And these are custom made skates.

    Anyway, I digress.

    I could get a piano teacher that had lower standards but that is kind of silly at this point. Why teach her to be sloppy? I do not make her practice hours. We decided against that. But she has enough that she has to practice about 45 minutes. And she gets Wed off because she has Mandarin and gets home late.

    As mentioned, her gymnastics coach pushes her and she likes gymnastics. But she will have to decide between gymnastics and ballet in another year. If she gets into the NYC ballet school, she will probably choose ballet and then she will have to strive for perfection or she is out. But that will be her choice.

    I do ask her to perform for her recitals. She won't play for anyone if I ask but last year, on a rainy day, her swimming coach said that she saw the piano in the playroom and started playing for her mates and they were amazed,and because they complimented her, she kept on playing. So these kids find their own motivation.

    I did tell her that she has to decide what to pursue but there are choices I make. Like music, science programs, mandarin and a sport. But just like I make her take swimming (we live on the ocean in the summer) and tennis. I plan to start sailing with her. I don't expect her to sail around the world or even compete. But just know how to sail. I have found these things useful as an adult. When I came to NYC, I could go to tennis parties because I could play tennis. I could go on a sailing trip because I could sail. I met people that way. Better than going to bars.

    Ren

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    There is also a book calle "The Five Love Langues of Children." It is a fascinating book and honestly it has helped my relationship with my DD. It applies to all types of kids...gifted or not in my opinion. Children have a natural love language and although praise, affirmation, acts of service, etc. all help in making a child feel loved...children have a primary love language (or 2) that they identify more with though it is not something they can always necessarily express to you, so they will wind up doing things behaviorally to get their needs met.

    My DD's primary love language is quality time. She thorougly enjoys our attention and it never seems enough to be honest so it can quite exhausting at times. Boundaries still have to exist so that she understands that she can't be the center of everyone's world 24/7. Affirmation also seems to be a strong "love language" of hers.

    Take care and though raising children is probably the most difficult thing we do...I would also say it's the most rewarding as well!

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    Quote
    There's a different between encouraging and "pushing." Pushing for me anyway involved a lot of angry words and guilt laid upon me from my parents, mostly my mother. There was never any room for experimentation it was always "black and white" and for me...well my world has ALWAYS been grey.

    If my daughter is interested in a sport or learning an instrument...it will be a requirement for me that she stick with it for the year and if she decides she is no longer interested after a year, then she can quit. I was never given the option of quitting or the option of experimenting with the music. For me...music was painful to my ears if a wrong note was played. I'd be sitting at a concert and a wrong note would just sound like nails scratching on a black board. I couldn't even stand my own wrong notes so I was quite the perfectionist and would get very angry with myself if I made mistakes...I didn't need anyone else breathing down my neck telling me about mistakes I made...particularly since my mother had no clue how to play the piano.

    Interesting, as my childhood was the exact opposite. I was never pushed. I was never "forced" or even encouraged (I like that by the way, it's so true - there being a difference) to stick with something. As a perfectionist by nature, if I felt it was too difficult, I quit (even if it was something I could do). And my parents said ok. And now, as an adult, I have to force myself NOT to quit (especially in the workforce having mouths to feed). I settle for MUCH less than what my potential is. I talk myself out of anything and everything that requires a wee bit of effort, even though I'm perfectly capable of grabbing the bull by the horns and taking a long ride. It's why I'm at the bottom of the totem pole; it's why I'm overweight, etc. Some see it as lazy, but it's a deep rooted fear now... fear of failure, fear of success. Thankfully, I have begun a walk on a journey with DS which has helped me gain a little confidence again.

    I see the SAME traits in DS6. And like you, we have told him he MUST finish a season or a year of something he tries new. If he doesn't like it, he can quit and try something else. During his very first baseball game, he missed the ball or struck out or got hit with the ball. I'm not sure which (how sad). But he decided he would just give up. I wouldn't even let him get out of the dugout. I told him he had to play the entire season. Period. And that he will not always be the best at everything. Fast forward to today, five seasons (fall and spring) later, and he's made it on the all star team. There are still kids way better than he is, but "forcing" him NOT to choose the easy way out, as I did, will hopefully start him on a path of keeping himself encouraged as well. And well, he's ok with not being the best at everything. smile

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    This has been yet another interesting DITD discussion that has prompted a bit of self-examination.

    I know that I've occasionally been hard on our son over the last year, and that my expectations have been too high at times. I have to remind myself: "HE'S ONLY 8!!" It's so easy to for me to forget about the need for legos & sandbox time, especially when the other activities are piling high.

    At one point this spring, he had double homework loads as he prepared to participate in a special field trip with another class. This was the proverbial straw, and he made it clear that there was too much going on in his life at the moment. Right on the spot, while he sat on my lap in tears, I made a series of phone calls to bow out of a few other commitments and in an instant I could see the relief in his face.

    This wasn't really a case of "pushing" on my part, but looking back, I know I should have seen the warning signs and not let the pressures mount.

    The only requirement outside of schoolwork is piano instruction. He's finishing up his fourth year of lessons and other than a perfunctory dislike of practice, he'll sometimes admit to enjoying himself. My goal for practice is about half of the teacher's: no more than about 20mins/day, 4 times/week. And despite this reduced time, he's well ahead of his teacher's expectations... and that's good enough for me.

    Despite the "requirement," being the kind and benevolent parent that I am, I've relaxed my expectations so that when we need to "let something go" in a busy day or week, it's usually piano. And I'm always impressed with how well he does even after a two or three week break. (Gee.. it's almost as though the breaks help!!)

    For sports, he's been taking karate for three years, and tennis for two. While I definitely encourage these sports, his level of involvement is entirely up to him. With karate in particular, I'm 100% hands-off, relying on peer & instructor pressure to keep him motivated. (And after a couple facial bruises with new weapons recently, he's stepped up the practice all on his own!) With tennis, I'm involved only to the extent that he needs me for practice. I know where his coaches want him to focus his attention each week, and will direct accordingly, but otherwise it's up to him. Heck... we even manage to enjoy ourselves at the same time!

    It's tough to hear the glowing praise of his coaches, teachers and instructors and NOT turn around and push him to the extent of his abilities. I know that he can perform even better ... and REALLY impress those other adults... but right now he's REALLY having fun and I don't want to screw that up. He's only 8.


    Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz
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    Having my own experiences with music and sports does help in raising my children however it really is so easy to forget and wind up pushing too hard. I also forget that my daughter is not even 5 yet I talk to her like an adult. I have difficulty talking to a 4 yr. old on a 4 yr. old level I guess. I'm a very analytical, logical person.

    I was a gymnast for 11 yrs. and was pushed very hard by coaches...telling me that I was fat at 8 when in fact I was too underweight (you could see my ribs). They made you get back up if you got hurt, lift weights, 50 push ups, etc., etc. I was taught to ignore pain...I remember being thrown into a wall because I didn't want to get back up on the balance beam. This and the constant requests to perform for my parents' friends was too much and I would just simply push back and refuse knowing the verbal abuse that would ensue.

    In spite of all those bad experiences...I have grown to appreciate the gifts I have had and regret not fulfilling them, particularly piano. Gymnastics is a nasty sport that has left me permanently damaged physically. I was told to choose between figure skating and gymnastics...I can't say how figure skating would have gone but gymnastics was hard on my body. Don't forget ballet and tap when I was little.

    I too was way too busy...piano, concert band and orchestra (I played the French Horn), gymnastics, and diving. I'd be at school at 6 AM to practice diving, then throughout the day I'd play in the band and orchestra, then at the end of the day I'd be at gymnastics practice. Keep in mind that your children will be less likely to tell you that they are overwhelmed because they really do want to please you and want you to be proud of them. I don't feel that I had much of an opportunity to be a kid.

    My best advice in regards to this particular issue I guess would be to watch for the signs of being overwhelmed (passive aggressive behaviors such as silence when requested to perform...they want it to be their choice not yours...it's hard to be put on the spot, particularly if you're a perfectionist). It's humiliating to be required to perform for your parents' friends and have the fear of God in you that you might make a mistake and look stupid. Other signs to look for might be an over exaggerated response to something that appears quite menial. Talk to your kids and allow them to be honest about their feelings, they have to know that they can trust you in order to open up.

    I like it when I hear that people want their kids to be kids and not mini adults. I have to remind myself of that all the time in spite of what I know. I wrote a paper on adult Narcissism via their children...in other words a parent living vicariously through their child which is a dangerous thing to do because their very identity winds up being up for collatoral and is based on your performance, looks, etc...as it was for me. As long as I looked good enough and performed well enough...then my mother felt good enough. Needless to say it didn't go over well however on a positive note, and yes there is one...we have a fantastic relationship now, we really do.

    Sorry I write novels here apparently! :o)

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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by Azuil
    Gymnastics is a nasty sport that has left me permanently damaged physically. I was told to choose between figure skating and gymnastics...I can't say how figure skating would have gone but gymnastics was hard on my body. Don't forget ballet and tap when I was little.

    Many sports right now are nasty and very hard on children's bodies. In skating, children are expected to land double jumps well before their bodies are sufficiently developed to be able to handle the strain. A lot of the grace has gone out of skating and many people feel that the sport has turned into jumping contests that require ever-more spectacular feats. Many elite skaters end up needing hip surgery before they're 25 to repair damage done by years of slamming onto the ice.

    In baseball, young pitchers are forced to keep throwing, and, as Azuil said, told to ignore pain. Ballet, gymnastics...the list goes on, and it's very upsetting.

    Originally Posted by Azuil
    I like it when I hear that people want their kids to be kids and not mini adults. I wrote a paper on adult Narcissism via their children...in other words a parent living vicariously through their child which is a dangerous thing to do....

    Yes I agree with you completely! It really, really bugs me that parents of gifted kids get accused of "not letting our kids be kids" because we let them read books when they're four. And it bugs me even more that these same people turn a blind eye to parents who shout their 8-year-olds into tears at athletic events.

    Which parent is forcing adulthood onto a kid? Me, because I bought a third-grade BrainQuest book for my five-year-old because she begged me for it? Or parents who yell their way through soccer games, expect a kid to give 100% at every practice (year round, of course), and all the while tell the kid to ignore pain?

    Sheesh!

    Val

    (PS, Wren, thanks for the kind words in your first post of this thread)

    Last edited by Val; 05/27/10 11:25 AM.
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    Hey Val...I hope you don't think I was referring to you when I wrote about parents of gifted kids not allowing them to be kids. I'm so sorry if it did.

    I think it's fantastic that your child is so excited about learning!

    I wrote the paper on Parental Narcissism because that was my mother then...not now thankfully. I am a mother of a child whom I suspect is gifted and am in the process of finding someone to test her simply because I want to do my best to provide her with the appropriate amount of nurturing both emotionally and intellectually. My own experience does not necessarily mean I am infallable and have all the answers...I know what needs to change, it's a matter of being able to apply those changes so I don't make the same mistakes with my daughter as my mother did with me.

    So sorry I go on and on LOL I really do talk too much I think...gee and I complain about that in my daughter...go figure!

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