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    #76497 - 05/20/10 02:51 PM A warning from a gifted adult.
    ACh Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/20/10
    Posts: 20
    Hi. I'm a gifted adult.

    I was identified as profoundly gifted as a child; the reports said anywhere from 162 to as high as 'well above 180'.

    Not to scare you too much, but I have a warning for the parents of gifted children:

    It is profoundly tough for us to be alive and cope with the rest of the world.

    I have my niche. I'm in science; I'm presently an undergrad, doing very well (high GPA, frequently on the Dean's List), and on the way to graduate school for neurobiology or genetics.

    I have found my place in the world.

    Nevertheless, here is a selection of what your children may encounter:
    - the pain that comes from floating lonely in a sea of stupidity or ignorance with very little company
    - the isolation
    - the anger at the lack of nuance in the thought processes of the people around them
    - the impatience with the slow thought processes of others despite frequent practice at being patient
    - the fear of the possibility of the modern version of angry pitchfork-bearing peasants running after them for saying something that makes them look stupid or challenges their worldview
    - the fact that the vast majority of people in the world are, quite plainly, morons. If you read the news, you'll know what I mean.

    The mere fact that I have found a place where I belong and that I can achieve what I want to achieve is what keeps me alive. If this were not the case, I would have killed myself a long time ago from despair.
    Dissuade your children, if they are inclined that way, from being one of those socially maladjusted, emotionally disturbed and bitter weirdos who does menial work, has to join a high IQ society or something to get any intellectual release (fun fact: most actual members of Mensa are a total pain in the @$$ to be around), and becomes totally insane - I hate those people, successful gifted people hate those people, and those people probably hate themselves. I had to work hard to get where I am and to be on the road to success. I had to grit my teeth, study hard, and get treated for depression that lasted from as far back as I remember to the age of 20. (I'm now about 22.) Work as hard as you can - and it is bitterly hard work; my parents worked VERY HARD to even give me the much-less-than-perfect environment I grew up in - to make sure your child succeeds in life.

    This world is poorly equipped to deal with us (I have chosen not to have children partially because any child I would have would go through many of the same things I did, considering the heritability of intelligence, and I don't think I'd be able to forgive myself if I had a child who had such a high likelihood of going through it).


    Edited by ACh (05/20/10 02:55 PM)

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    #76499 - 05/20/10 02:53 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    ACh Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/20/10
    Posts: 20
    I have to add that no matter how gifted your kid is, they won't amount to anything unless they have drive, motivation, and discipline.

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    #76505 - 05/20/10 05:09 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    chris1234 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/27/08
    Posts: 1891
    ACh - sorry you have had such a rough road, I think many folks here can sympathize; my ds8, though not pg, is gifted enough and quirky enough to be having quite the time fitting in. So much of what he's gone through has been familiar territory for me, and I think it is a main theme of this forum to work on social concerns, keeping kids on a good track with their self esteem and looking out for a child's happiness always above academic achievement. (Long term goals that sometimes seem very hard to achieve)
    Anyway, I guess I wasn't too excited to hear all the bitterness in your tone, calling folks 'morons' doesn't float too many boats around here smile
    ... but I sort of understand you are coming from a situation, by the simple fact of being a kid, where you had very little control and that can make for bitterness. I do hope that as you move through your schooling and career in science that you will shed some of that and begin to see the good in most folks. Welcome, I hope you find even more of what you are looking for, and achieve to your utmost potential!

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    #76509 - 05/20/10 06:41 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Cricket2 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/11/09
    Posts: 2172
    Loc: Colorado
    Originally Posted By: ACh
    ...(fun fact: most actual members of Mensa are a total pain in the @$$ to be around)...I hate those people, successful gifted people hate those people, and those people probably hate themselves...

    Ouch! As a Mensa member myself, I'd have to say that I have met a few Mensans who are oddballs around whom I don't necessarily care to hang, however I have also met a lot of Mensans who are really interesting people and they aren't all bitter people who work menial jobs.

    Yes, gifted people can be more prone to existential depression. I had plenty of challenging years myself. I don't think that finding part of one's social circle in a high IQ group indicates the inability to interact with people outside of that group, though.
    _________________________
    Study Strategies for Accelerated Learners

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    #76511 - 05/20/10 07:10 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Cricket2]
    Zanzi Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/15/10
    Posts: 23
    Thanks ACh. I'd venture to say that 22 is still pretty young. You may choose to have kids after all. I know it's taken me a long time to find my place in the world that most people feel at home in (still not quite sorted) but having a child has provided me with a deep well-spring from which to understand and grow from my own upbringing.

    I've never been tested but my son has, as PG, and I'm watching him do many of the things I did as a child. Living in a non-Western country (India), for some time, was I think a valuable experience. Western society is very conformist and mechanized. Most people freak out if you start to question the mechanism. Being a stranger in a strange land can give you the freedom to be different because that's what people expect from you.


    Edited by Zanzi (05/20/10 07:14 PM)

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    #76512 - 05/20/10 07:43 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Zanzi]
    no5no5 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/02/09
    Posts: 529
    Hm. Well, I also tested PG as a child, and I have to say that I disagree with much of what you wrote. Perhaps I might have agreed with more of it at 22. I have come to see that though I am faster, I am not better, and I am as flawed as (and not more flawed than) any other person. smile

    I hope that you will overcome your challenges, and discover that a happy, fulfilling life is just as possible for you as it is for anyone else.

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    #76514 - 05/20/10 08:10 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: no5no5]
    amazedmom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/24/09
    Posts: 383
    Loc: Edge of the world
    Hi Ach-

    I just want to say it is nice to hear from you and I am sorry for what you have gone through. I can identify with much of what you speak of. I was identified as EG as a child, and well I remember the loneliness. It was difficult and still is at times. I remember my early 20's being very difficult, as I found myself in college and gradschool but still feeling alone and not understood. I was lucky, I had very supportive parents and was given educational opportunities that allowed me to be around others who were HG to PG.

    Anyway, I just want to tell you I understand the feelings you have as I have been there myself, but luckily today see myself as others have said before me as flawed, but not more or less than other people. Good luck to you smile
    _________________________
    DD6- DYS
    Homeschooling on a remote island at the edge of the world.

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    #76517 - 05/20/10 08:44 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Dandy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/12/08
    Posts: 574
    Originally Posted By: ACh
    This world is poorly equipped to deal with us (I have chosen not to have children partially because any child I would have would go through many of the same things I did, considering the heritability of intelligence, and I don't think I'd be able to forgive myself if I had a child who had such a high likelihood of going through it).

    Really? I would hope that you would be able to employ your profound gifts and *think* of a way to help your children succeed, whether geniuses or not. Besides, just because they might pop out with some of your genius doesn't mean that the genetic material contributed by the other parent wouldn't have a chance to balance your "curse," right?

    I've long been mystified by the thinking that one's genetic material is so wickedly awesome that humanity would be best served by denying the potential contribution. It sounds more like you've denied your offspring (and humanity) one heck of an opportunity to benefit from all this chromosomal goodness.

    My sibling, with scores comparable to yours, had a similar outlook when he was young... and thank goodness his animal drive to reproduce overrode his angsty attitude, as the world has since been blessed with one phenomenally capable pediatrician and an extremely competent teacher.
    _________________________
    Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz

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    #76518 - 05/20/10 08:50 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Dandy]
    inky Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/10/08
    Posts: 1299
    Wish I'd known about Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration when I was 22.
    http://talentdevelop.com/articles/TOPDAAM1.html
    Quote:
    “we observe above average abilities in many areas, emotional richness and depth, and multiple and strong manifestations of psychic overexcitability. In individuals so endowed one may observe from childhood difficulties of adjustment, serious developmental crises, psychoneurotic processes, and tendency toward disintegration of lower levels of functioning and reaching toward higher levels of functioning. This, however, does not occur without disturbances and disharmony with their external environment and within their internal environment. Feelings of otherness and strangeness are not uncommon. We find this in gifted children, creative and prominent personalities, men of genius, i.e. those who contribute new discoveries and new values.” (Dabrowski, 1996, p.22)


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    #76520 - 05/21/10 06:20 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: inky]
    kcab Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/02/07
    Posts: 1603
    Loc: Sparta, apparently
    Well, I've had these thoughts at one time or another, though I doubt my IQ is as high. You're fortunate in that you've gotten help for depression already, it took me somewhat longer to reach that point.

    I find that I wonder about your educational path, ACh. I'm guessing no academic acceleration, or not much, since you're an undergrad at 22. Is that accurate?

    Thanks for any thoughts/experiences you wish to share.
    _________________________
    kcab

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    #76522 - 05/21/10 06:25 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    MsFriz Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/22/08
    Posts: 313
    You might find this interesting if you haven't seen it already:

    http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/dabrowskis_theory_existential_depression_feb09.pdf

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    #76525 - 05/21/10 07:25 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: chris1234]
    BonusMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/06/09
    Posts: 151
    Loc: IL
    Originally Posted By: chris1234

    Anyway, I guess I wasn't too excited to hear all the bitterness in your tone, calling folks 'morons' doesn't float too many boats around here smile


    Agreed.

    Originally Posted By: cricket2
    Ouch! As a Mensa member myself, I'd have to say that I have met a few Mensans who are oddballs around whom I don't necessarily care to hang, however I have also met a lot of Mensans who are really interesting people and they aren't all bitter people who work menial jobs.

    Yes, gifted people can be more prone to existential depression. I had plenty of challenging years myself. I don't think that finding part of one's social circle in a high IQ group indicates the inability to interact with people outside of that group, though.


    And agreed.

    I am a Mensan and I am a secretary. I love my job and I have enjoyed the experiences I've had in Mensa.

    I don't know the basis on which you rest your claims about "most" Mensans; it is downright impossible for you to know "most" Mensans to any degree, much less thoroughly enough to pass such judgment.

    But I understand that you must have been having a rough day and needed to vent. I sympathize with the challenges you've faced in the past and those that you have not yet met. Perhaps you need to spend a little time gaining perspective and developing compassion, though. College students have endless opportunities for volunteering; I suggest you look beyond yourself for a chance to make a lasting, positive difference in the lives of people who have suffered far more than you have.

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    #76527 - 05/21/10 07:42 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: BonusMom]
    aline Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/07
    Posts: 155
    Loc: Southwest
    Ach

    Many of us here have experienced much of what you are going through. My line has always been that it's so not about getting into Harvard, it's about not becoming the unabomber.Hang in there. One good thing is that as you continue in academia there will be more and more smart people. Not, however, a majority!

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    #76534 - 05/21/10 09:26 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: aline]
    ColinsMum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/08
    Posts: 1898
    Loc: Scotland
    It's probably fair to guess (code for, I can't be bothered to try to look it up right now) that most PG children have at least one PG parent, so yeah, many of us have BTDTGTTS. At 22 (and indeed for many years beyond that) I too thought I'd never have kids, because my life had not been one I'd want to give someone else, and I didn't know how to give a child something better. I think I do now, and I dare to claim that my DS is in a better path. Don't give up.
    _________________________
    Email: my username, followed by 2, at google's mail

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    #76538 - 05/21/10 10:12 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ColinsMum]
    JJsMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/25/09
    Posts: 921
    I'm far from PG, yet I face the same challenges with the general population daily. And at 15, I went through many of the same thoughts as you are. Now at just a tad under 40, I still have my moments, but learning about myself through parenting my HG DS and keeping him on a path to succeed has been the best gift anyone could've given to me. What doesn't challenge me in the workforce or the "real" world is made up for with all the challenges that come with raising children in general, but especially one that is gifted. Sure DS will face the issues I have, but he will go about them with full knowledge of himself and learn to rise above and become successful both academically and socially.

    The road of life is not easy for anyone, but moreso for those on one or the other side of the "IQ" spectrum (for lack of a better description). But it doesn't make it worth the ride.

    You are young (yes, I am sure you are tired of hearing that), but maybe you will bless this world with another gifty from your gene pool. smile

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    #76542 - 05/21/10 10:31 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: kcab]
    crazydaisy Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 11/16/09
    Posts: 38
    How horribly dissolusioned you sound! I'm sorry for that and the pain in which you have lived. For you I wish peace. I hope that through your struggles, you one day find freedom. I believe that true happiness can come only after feeling the depth of dispair. I'll hope for you that at the end of your journey you are rewarded with the peace, happiness, and freedom to be who you are.

    Thank you for all your insight. What you have to say has immeasurable value!

    Crazy Daisy


    Edited by crazydaisy (05/21/10 10:32 AM)

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    #76550 - 05/21/10 11:22 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: crazydaisy]
    mnmom23 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/11/09
    Posts: 701
    Ach, I am wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your path through school: what worked for you, what didn't? Since you had IQ testing, I'm guessing that your parents were aware of your high abilities -- did they try to "ajust" the system to fit you, were they unsure of what you needed, or were they unwilling or unable to make changes? Did you have any acclerations in school or situations that did meet your social and educational needs? What do you think would have make your growing-up experiences better?

    I think we are all here trying to give our kids the chance to be challenged in work, comfortable in society, happy with themselves, and compassionate about others. Sometimes that takes a lot of work, and I'm curious if you could give us insight into what you, so recently having gone through growing into adulthood, think would help our kids.
    _________________________
    She thought she could, so she did.

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    #76555 - 05/21/10 11:42 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: mnmom23]
    vicam Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/11/09
    Posts: 171
    Loc: columbus ohio
    I'm sorry but it sounds as if you are one of many excuse makers I encounter. Are you taking the time to get to know people? I mean on more than a surface level. I work with special needs students some with a 40 IQ. everyday they show me a new and interesting way to look at the world. Yes they are frustrating at times as are all people. I always ask them to make the best use of what every abilities they have. That is all that can be asked of anyone. Learning that social interaction is a matter of give and take is vital. You may want to look at the multiple intelligences, I am sure there are areas in which you display deficits, as there are for all of us.
    Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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    #76615 - 05/21/10 08:34 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: vicam]
    Zanzi Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/15/10
    Posts: 23
    Granted, there's it's a little ironic to warn parents against raising a bitter child by doing XYZ in terms which seem pretty bitter, given the ACh feels he's avoided that outcome.

    However, I think it's a mistake to lecture too much on the hubris of calling people morons. ACh is expressing his frustrations, from his perspective, and warning parents that their kids may experience the same.

    Working (or learning) with people who can't see nuance, who expect everyone to think the same or who cannot see the glaring fault in a given strategy is frustrating for anyone. Repeat that experience and multiply it ten-fold and you can relate to ACh's experience.

    Telling him he shouldn't feel a certain ways is no answer to his warning that our own kids may feel that way regardless of our views on how things 'should be'.

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    #76622 - 05/21/10 10:36 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Zanzi]
    EastnWest Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/12/08
    Posts: 302
    ACh -

    I am curious to hear your thoughts on the responses you have gotten so far.

    - EW

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    #76625 - 05/21/10 11:55 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: kcab]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope as you move into graduate school and adult life that you find ways to connect with people you have more in common with. I encourage you to continue to keep an eye on your depression and make sure it is properly treated.

    I believe your experience represents a true and not uncommon experience with being PG. Fortunately though it is not the only one. There absolutely are PG kids who are quite happy. I'm the parent of one of them. I believe what parents do makes a significant difference. While we don't have control over our kid's IQ, we do have the opportunity to make a big difference in their experiences by doing things such as:
    learning about the social and emotional needs of gifted kids
    making carefully considered discipline and lifestyle choices
    considering educational alternatives including homeschooling, grade skipping and early college
    listening to our kids and being their sounding board and advocate
    paying attention to mental health concerns

    Parents should be hopeful. The fact that they've made it to this list already suggests they are on the right track.



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    #76750 - 05/24/10 07:03 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Azuil Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/23/10
    Posts: 39
    Hi there...I was labeled gifted as a child and so was my husband. I do know what you mean by the world not understanding how to deal with such things. Often times parent's expectations are too high for our children to emotionally handle them, particularly with gifted children.

    I have suffered from depression for many years and have learned to cope though I still have setbacks. I also questioned having children however what I have come to realize, is acknowledgment of what went wrong for you as a kid is 1/2 the battle. Now it's just applying what you know which is the really difficult part.

    I have a daughter whom I think is gifted and plan on having her tested. She is difficult at times to deal with and I constantly remind myself that I am not my mother for example. There is no perfect parent but I am glad that I have my 2 children even if I wound up starting late. Take the bad behaviors of your own parents, throw them out the window (as best you can) and create your own identity...even if you don't have kids...your past may shape who you are, but it doesn't have to define you.

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    #76753 - 05/24/10 07:38 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Azuil]
    MegMeg Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/14/10
    Posts: 615
    Two thoughts to add to those already here:

    I used to be very snobby about "smart" people who didn't just go where the smart people are (which, in my world view at the time, was of course academia). The term "gifted adult" drove me crazy, I thought it was a cop-out.

    As I've gotten older I've realized how very very lucky I was. I grew up in an academic family who educated me, assumed I would go to college, knew how to help me choose the right one for me, and could pay for it. I went to a small liberal arts college that specializes in brilliant quirky misfits. I found a terrific thesis advisor who helped me get into a top-notch Ph.D. program, in spite of my rather unpolished social skills at the time. And I've had to learn that it's not like that for everyone.

    Second point: I TOTALLY get it about the impatience with people who aren't swift. There was an episode of Friends where Joey is slowly cluing in to something obvious, and Chandler jumps up and down and says "Get there FASTER!" That's how I feel a lot of the time in my daily life, interacting with people. I want to jump up and down and scream "Get there faster!" What can I say? As you get older, you learn generosity, and kindness, and not taking oneself too seriously.

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    #76823 - 05/25/10 08:08 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: MsFriz]
    Azuil Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/23/10
    Posts: 39
    Originally Posted By: MsFriz
    You might find this interesting if you haven't seen it already:

    http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/dabrowskis_theory_existential_depression_feb09.pdf


    Wow this is fascinating! As I'm reading this my life flashes before me. Though I'm very aware of my own issues and why they exist...I've never actually seen it put in such accurate terms. I'll have to print this out and read the whole thing. Seeing as I have the attention span of a squirrel I was perusing through it reading parts that particularly pertained to my life now and then.

    At any rate...I'm a firm believer in learning from mistakes...my own and the mistakes I feel other people have made in their lives that have also impacted me seeing as family and friends do impact our lives. We don't have to be a product of our environment if our environment has been negative. Gifted individuals may struggle with those who do not have that kind of intellectual prowess, hypocracy, cruelty, etc. What we also have to realize...is that high intellect is great and all...but you can't forget about wisdom which is learning from mistakes and realizing that hypocracy and other forms of social injustices exist everywhere in this world...we have to make sure we're not contributing to it.

    I remember wondering why I was put on this earth at 10 yrs. old. Existential Depression...yes that's me, and so many others. We can't let the past or even our angst at the atrocities that occur in this world put us in the position of becoming apathetic or so cynical that we become exactly what it is we detest.

    My father's IQ is genius level...how high, I'm not sure however he has a humanistic side to him that is caring and nurturing if not naieve. His brother however, whose IQ was so high that he detested the world around him...decided that it was in his best interest to drink himself to death. How intelligent is that? We can't allow our perceptions of other people around us turn us into hateful human beings...isn't that a lot of what we're depressed about? I'm sure you'll find morons everwhere you go regardless of intellect...but you'll also find loving and caring human beings...we can't forget how to be one not matter how high our IQ is.


    Edited by Azuil (05/25/10 08:21 AM)

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    #76830 - 05/25/10 09:16 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Lori H. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/26/07
    Posts: 982
    My 12 year old twice exceptional son has never felt like he fit in anywhere except the mixed-age musical theater group he is in where he can have high school and college aged friends and nobody thinks anything is strange about it, unlike our age segregated public school. Even there, he couldn't find anyone with similar academic interests except for music and history. At least that is better than nothing.

    There are no kids like him in the public school or in our homeschool group. We live in a small town where sports ability is valued over academic ability. He can't play sports because of the mild disability.

    He has always been interested in neuroscience, especially in neuroplasticity, memory, learning and alternative methods of learning. I keep telling him he will fit in when he goes to college. There are others like him, just not here in our small town.

    I have never been successful at finding another kid that was interested in the things he is interested in, but I tried again about a month ago. I took him to a church. The preacher listed a bunch of symptoms like migraines, anxiety, pain, all symptoms he has and the preacher said that these symptoms were due to having a lot of anger and the only thing that would cure these symptoms was forgiveness. My son joked afterwards that maybe we just needed to cancel the neurology appointment for the migraines and instead try to figure out who he was mad at. We didn't go back.

    He hates it when people in our town who haven't met him assume that he is an ignorant kid, but when he proves otherwise they look at him like he is from another planet. Actually, they look at both of us like we are from another planet.

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    #76842 - 05/25/10 11:52 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: EastnWest]
    zhian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/09/09
    Posts: 125
    Loc: Bochum, Germany
    I am 23, somewhere between highly and exceptionally gifted depending on which test you believe and how accurate it was, and I somewhat understand where ACh is coming from. Most of the time, the majority of people around me do seem "slow" – I especially hate being faced with supposed authority figures who I feel aren't as bright as I am. I have a particular issue with repetition, which becomes a problem in more situations than you might think. I do have to be patient a lot of the time, even in everyday conversations (people complain that I talk too fast and use words they don't know), and I do feel that no matter how reasonable I find individuals, society at large often seems to have the IQ of a developmentally-stunted amoeba. But no matter how badly the world is set up for gifted people, I could never bring myself to be as bitter as ACh sounds here. I love my life and, notwithstanding a few rocky patches that had more to do with my spirit than my mind, have felt that way for many years. I feel I can work and socialize with "normal" people as long as I am confident and open about my giftedness and surround myself with people who appreciate it rather than fear or resent it (sometimes easier said than done, I grant you). I plan to have children – in fact, were I financially secure rather than a starving grad student, I would start searching for children in need of adoption and/or a surrogate tomorrow (I want children but have no desire to marry). And I very much hope my child is gifted, because I think the pros outweigh the cons by about a million to one, and because all the gifted children who have entered my life in my years as a teacher have brought such incredible light with them.

    EDIT: MegMeg, just saw the comment about "GET THERE FASTER!" I love it!


    Edited by zhian (05/25/10 11:56 AM)

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    #77063 - 05/28/10 05:05 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: kcab]
    Ellipses Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/22/09
    Posts: 402
    Loc: Colorado
    Dear ACh,

    I do understand where you are coming from. If you have found your niche - stay there. I have "fit in" (sort of) few times in my life. I have suffered depression all my life. However, the intensity comes and goes. I have learned the beautiful art of "walking away" from conversations.

    My father was exceptional, but the rest of my family is not. He died when I was fifteen and the rest of my family constantly put me down as being "weird". Their goal for me has always been to "fit in".

    I have a gifted daughter and I love her more than I have loved anyone. We butt heads, but she has brought something great to my life. Yes, when I see her struggle socially, I go off and have a cry. She does love being at home with us and has a few other kids that are brighter. Choir and band are her "happy places".

    At your age, I felt like you do. I have been through happier times though. But, I always felt like I did not completely fit. Who you work for - and with - is really important. I am in a decent place now. Working for idiots is impossible for me.

    Learning to get along with other people is difficult, but necessary. I think of it as a way to acquire data rather than "giving in". I always have a running idea of a sitcom and collect characters for it. Dickens did this and put them to great use - as well as Seinfeld and now Dimitri Martin.

    Even on this forum, I always have a different opinion than most and many just ignore me.

    I don't have any great words of wisdom except to stay with your interests. You may change your mind about kids - I had mine at 37. This is not an interest, but a deeper emotion that you can really only understand when it is a reality. I am no longer completely alone in life.

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    #77075 - 05/28/10 08:19 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Ellipses]
    Azuil Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/23/10
    Posts: 39
    You have plenty of wisdom to offer; I agree with what you said. "Getting along" is necessary but you don't always have to agree and you can walk away. It's hard to fit in but there are people out there, as we have seen on this forum that can relate at least on some level.

    I had my kids at 36 and 40. I see my daughter struggling socially and I have cried as well. I don't know what my lvl. of giftedness is frankly because I always thought of myself as abnormal and wierd; too sensitive, etc. I haven't been on this forum long...but it has made me realize now that wow...I'm not nuts...this is actually "normal" for gifted children and though my mother told me I was labeled gifted...I really didn't attach a whole lot of meaning to it until reading up on it due to my thoughts of my daughter being gifted. I wish I knew more about this before...it might have made a difference for me.

    Best wishes to everyone here who struggle. I still struggle with depression and although I have little tolerance at times, I remind myself that not everyone thinks or perceives like me and that's what makes the world go around...it doesn't make them bad or wrong and nor does it make me bad or wrong that I don't think like everyone else if this makes sense.

    I don't want to be judged (even though I have) so I really try hard not to judge others.

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    #77080 - 05/28/10 11:25 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Azuil]
    eldertree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/25/10
    Posts: 224
    Loc: Gulf coast
    It's been my experience that MENSA members are like pretty much any other group-- some are nice, some are complete a**hats, and most are somewhere in between. (Disclaimer: I'm not a MENSA member, because I don't like crowds, even crowds of smart people.)

    It's also been my experience that being smarter than the average bear doesn't make you any more successful, more prone to happiness, harder working, taller, blonder, or pretty much anything else (although it does seem to offer a lot more creativity when you choose ways in which to shoot yourself in the foot).

    Pretty much it appears to me that the old aphorism about autistic kids translates well to those who are gifted: "if you've seen one....you've seen one."
    _________________________
    "I love it when you two impersonate earthlings."

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    #77103 - 05/29/10 06:21 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: eldertree]
    Ellipses Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/22/09
    Posts: 402
    Loc: Colorado
    To ACh

    You may change your mind about a lot of things. For anyone, this is a tough and very questioning age. For gifties, this is worse (my belief). Don't close your mind to all. You may realize that MENSA or another group is the closest thing you have to what you desire - or not. I have truly connected to only a few people in my life. But, there are countless other that I have enjoyed conversations.

    One way that I work on my empathy for others is to imagine myself in art class. Talk about feeling like a moron - I just did not get it and my projects were terrible. However, I love Art History. I often felt this way in PE, unless we were playing ping-pong.

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    #77129 - 05/30/10 04:56 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Ellipses]
    chris1234 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/27/08
    Posts: 1891
    One other thought, what they say about judging a book by it's cover is very true! I just had the best conversation with a lady at the dance studio my kids go to, she is always dressed to the 9's, in fact way overboard, in a provocative way I could never imagine sporting myself.
    I knew her husband was army, and she has 2 kids; she talks pretty rough, but is just hilarious most of the time. Turns out her husband is a scientist for the army, her kids love watching the science channel (7 and 9) in particular they have all been enjoying a Stephen Hawking series of late. Our chat was on various sci-fi books, which I was delighted to find out she loves reading. At any rate, maybe she is not pg ( neither am I), but a much better conversation than I've had with many of the more 'intellectual looking' folks who hang around outside the dance classroom...
    Delightful surprise.

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    #77139 - 05/30/10 11:02 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Ellipses]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3288
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Ellipses
    One way that I work on my empathy for others is to imagine myself in art class. Talk about feeling like a moron - I just did not get it and my projects were terrible.


    Oh, do I hear you there. I can't draw/paint something to save my life, in spite of many attempts since childhood. People who can draw or paint, etc., tell me confidently, "Oh yes, you CAN learn how to do this!" I tell them, "No, I can't. No matter what I do or how people try to teach me, I spend hours struggling to draw poorly what you could do well in 20 minutes while chatting over coffee." They often don't really want to believe me. Maybe it's hard to accept that something that can be so easy for them can be incredibly difficult for someone else.

    My lack of drawing ability (as well as disbelief in it, which continues to this day) gives me a lot of insight into what slow and very slow academic learners face in school. It must be no fun hearing, "Of course you can do this if you try!" by authority figures, and then struggling to do something poorly when everyone else can master it faster. I wonder how many children develop feelings of inadequacy when being pushed too hard by well-meaning (but clueless) adults.

    Val

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    #77250 - 06/01/10 02:00 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Val]
    zhian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/09/09
    Posts: 125
    Loc: Bochum, Germany
    You may hate me for saying this, Val, but don't give up. I thought I was permanently hopeless at visual art all through school (and I did try at it, often). Then one day when I was 21, I woke up out of a very vivid dream and started sketching stuff I'd dreamt about - and well. Something "clicked" and now I can draw. Weirdest thing.

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    #78783 - 06/23/10 01:46 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: zhian]
    StevenASylwester
    Unregistered


    zhian, it is good to be kind, but sometimes the greatest kindness is to tell someone plainly that they have no artistic talent when that is the undeniable truth of the matter. Consider the auditions on American Idol and the heartbreak suffered by so many people who thought they had talent when they had no talent at all. It is sad, and it speaks of wasted lives and pipe dreams.

    I am all for being creative and for making meaningful self-expressions, but so very much is lacking in the teaching of the creative process that most people never learn the language. In fact, most people do not even know that the visual arts are a language that is expressed in line, color, shape, form, and texture, and that the language can express purposely in visual balance and imbalance, and in visual harmony and disharmony, especially as those elements pertain to symmetry and the geometry of nature.

    Like the user of any language, the visual artist must have something to say — a reason to make a visual expression. Unfortunately, most people who wrongly imagine themselves to be artists never figure out that most basic of all basic things. Their so-called "art" is the stuff of gibberish nonsense that has no conceivable purpose whatsoever. It is comparable to the utterances of someone who cannot form a simple declarative sentence to describe a person, place, or thing.

    Schools should teach crafts, and should stress the value and importance of craftsmanship. A person with no artistic talent can be trained to be a fine craftsman, and that is a very worthy accomplishment.

    Val, forget drawing and visual artistic expressions. But do learn to make things. What an artist does is make things, and that is exactly the same thing that a craftsman does, too. So be a craftsman. Pick an appropriate craft for your interests, and then learn to do it well.

    I spent some time in art school myself, and I have been married to an artist for almost 35 years now. I have known my wife ever since we were both five years old and were across the street neighbors. We were classmates from first grade through eighth grade, and I have had a crush on her since fifth grade. My wife has been an artist since early childhood — her whole life. It is who she is and has always been. Making things is her language — her means of self-expression — and that language flows from her naturally. Truly, her artistic ability can be correctly thought of as a language fluency at a poetic level, which is the highest level of proficiency in my opinion.

    My wife's name is Koe, and the following is her website:
    http://koe-sylwester-artist.blogspot.com/
    http://koe-sylwester-artist.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html
    http://koe-sylwester-artist.blogspot.com/2009/11/introduction.html
    If you click on an image, it will enlarge.

    Val, both of my daughters are very creative. The oldest is a writer who finished writing her first novel at age 23, and the youngest is a visual artist who has been a visual artist since early childhood — her whole life — just like her mother. My wife and I recognized our youngest daughter's artistic gifts when she was a young child, but we had no idea about her remarkable genius-level gifts in the sciences until she was a freshman in high school. I will describe all of that sometime later at the "NASA Academy of the Physical Sciences" thread, because it is a good and appropriate story to tell.

    During the summer between her sophomore and junior years in high school, my youngest daughter took a Drawing class at the University of Oregon. During the previous summer, she had taken a Drawing class at Lane Community College in which she had made the following linked drawings:
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/ddq30c
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/ddq2vm
    The art professor at the University of Oregon who taught Drawing was so stunned by my daughter's ability that she seriously advised my daughter to immediately quit high school to enroll in one of the premiere art schools in the United States, and she recommended The School of The Art Institute of Chicago. The art professor was certain that my daughter would be granted early enrollment wherever she applied.

    Five months later during the spring of that daughter's junior year in high school, a chemistry professor at the University of Oregon told me that my daughter was easily in The Top One Percent of all the students he had ever taught during his then 20-year career as a chemistry professor at various universities in the United States, including at Princeton where he had earned his doctorate. That chemistry professor told me plainly in no uncertain terms that my daughter should now be majoring in chemistry at either Stanford or Harvard — and he told me this when that daughter was then a high school junior!

    That daughter had sold ten artworks before she graduated from high school — six of them to total strangers!

    My daughter's name is Liesel, and the following are her websites:
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/
    I strongly recommend that you browse through all six pages of Liesel's gallery. The artworks are posted in chronological order. If you click on an image, it will enlarge and Liesel's description of the artwork will appear. If you then click on the image again, it will enlarge one more time.
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/LieselSylwester
    http://www.etsy.com/listing/45558260/ruffled-chambray-shirtdress
    http://www.etsy.com/people/LieselSylwester

    Artists are very different from people who are not artists. Liesel has been very challenged by being both an artist and a scientist, because she is remarkably gifted in both and truly enjoys both, and because artists and scientists are very different from each other. However, whenever she has free time, Liesel's natural inclination — her joy — is to design, flat-pattern, and make clothing. She designed, flat-patterned, and fully constructed all of the clothing shown in her gallery website, including doing the hand embroidery and even the fabric dying in some cases.

    People should follow their joy. What that means for Liesel's future is still unknown. She would love to apprentice herself to the fashion designer Oscar de la Renta.

    It is a joy to be Liesel's father, but it is not easy.

    Steven A. Sylwester

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    #78786 - 06/23/10 04:51 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: StevenASylwester
    because artists and scientists are very different from each other.


    How so?

    I don't see the difference.




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    #78795 - 06/23/10 07:09 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Austin]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    I agree with Austin in that to make it so black and white is ridiculous. I'm an artist with degrees in studio art and art history but could have majored in math. I had professors begging me to switch my major to math, but for me it was simple and logical and art was the unknown. Many of my artistic friends have talents in many areas as well.

    I see a proud father and husband and kudos to you for that, but honestly I had to laugh at your comment about your daughter's early work and a guarantee of getting into the Art Institute of Chicago. Not saying she has no talent, but it is basic 'student' work ... studies. I have seen a dozen if not hundreds of work similar to those two drawings. I'm also not shocked by her love of fabric ... your wife clearly has it too.

    As for your description of art: really? Since you are being so vague I'm not sure who you are criticizing here. Modern art? There is definitely more to art than your little description. Even the best art historian has a hard time defining it and rightfully so.

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    #78796 - 06/23/10 07:36 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Katelyn'sM om]
    no5no5 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/02/09
    Posts: 529
    Originally Posted By: Katelyn'sM om
    I had to laugh at your comment about your daughter's early work and a guarantee of getting into the Art Institute of Chicago.


    I'll second that, and I want to add that I think this is a perfect example of why one should not presume to tell others what their gifts are or aren't or how they should or shouldn't seek fulfillment. If indeed your DD was advised to drop out of school and attempt to enroll in SAIC, that advice was clearly inappropriate.

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    #78802 - 06/23/10 09:22 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: no5no5]
    PoppaRex Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 06/09/10
    Posts: 44
    I have had this discussion before, basically the value of talent vs. the value of hard work and what i believe is this:

    Talent, whether is applies to IQ, art, athletics or whatever, is simply a definition of where you start and how far you can go.

    What is far more important is your determination.

    Val, i believe it is just as rare for someone to have zero talent as it is for someone to be profoundly gifted. Hard work can bring someone of little talent to a level on par with the gifted if the gifted has no interest in the subject. Don't give up if you enjoy.

    Which brings me to a point that Steven made that i disagree with:
    Quote:
    the visual artist must have something to say — a reason to make a visual expression. Unfortunately, most people who wrongly imagine themselves to be artists never figure out that most basic of all basic things. Their so-called "art" is the stuff of gibberish nonsense that has no conceivable purpose whatsoever.
    There is another reason for making art... the shear joy of it. For that reason alone art can exist. When i learned to draw, it was because I felt something, not because i had something to say. Art, like music, just envelops me. I don't have to care that you like it, or understand it, because truely I AM the ONLY one who understands what it means to me. The fact that some art can strike a sympathetic chord in another person, is icing.


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    #78817 - 06/23/10 12:01 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: PoppaRex]
    Katelyn'sM om Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/22/08
    Posts: 1085
    Loc: Austin, TX
    PoppaRex,

    You speak volumes. Look up Rothko. You will find a kinder spirit there. He was a modernist and I always loved how he argued against the idea that the art could be about nothing. His argument was that of course there is a subject matter to every piece of art. It is the experiences and emotions that the viewer brings with them. Some might disagree with his theory but you can not deny that art is subjective and part of this reason is due to how the end viewer sees it.

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    #78818 - 06/23/10 12:43 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: PoppaRex]
    StevenASylwester
    Unregistered


    PoppaRex,

    Please do not misunderstand me. Having "something to say" does not necessarily translate to a concept or to something that can be put into words — not at all. Both my wife and my daughter rail against conceptual art that cannot stand by itself without being propped up by indecipherable long-winded essays that are written in the nonsense of artspeak, which is a language that is taught in art schools across the United States. To earn a Master of Fine Arts degree today requires only a mastery of artspeak, not a mastery of any craft, any technique, or any skill actually used in visual expression. Simply, many MFA graduates today cannot draw, cannot paint, and cannot sculpt to save their lives. It is a travesty in my opinion, because the language of the visual arts is not artspeak, it is the language of line, color, shape, form, and texture used to make artistic expressions — even in photography — even in film and video.

    Yes, "the sheer joy of it" is why many artists do what they do, and much of what my wife and my daughter make comes from that place. But not everything. Consider:
    http://koe-sylwester-artist.blogspot.com/2009/11/girl-with-flower-tummy.html
    http://koe-sylwester-artist.blogspot.com/2009/11/howling-at-wall.html
    http://koe-sylwester-artist.blogspot.com/2009/11/antagonist.html
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d170218
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d1fj2px
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dw4kdi
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d13wqlw
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dztvec
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dodlxb
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dmlvs4
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dm6azl
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dictyx
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dd2dur
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d8aly5
    http://kingnapoleon.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d7m0lu

    Liesel is now 21. The second-from-the-top image of hers above was made two years ago , and the bottom image was made seven years ago. None of the artworks shown were done in an art class or for an art class; they are all personal expressions done for personal reasons — and they came from difficult and painful emotions, not joyful emotions.

    My wife refuses to explain the imagery in her artwork because she does not want the viewer to think that art is about correct interpretations. Why my wife likes her own artwork and why she made it is irrelevant to why the viewer should like it. If the artwork does not speak to the viewer without an accompanying written explanation, then the artwork fails.

    Consider my wife's artist's statement:
    http://koe-sylwester-artist.blogspot.com/2009/11/introduction.html

    Unfortunately, much of today's "art" is the stuff of angry contrived political statements, especially in the realm of feminist art. Art can be political, but it suffers if that is all that it is. In my opinion, the best visual art does not come from the controlled and controlling rational mind that is fully capable of expressing itself in words, because then — at best — what is being produced is the stuff of article illustrations — mind stuff, not heart-and-soul stuff that touches the human spirit.

    Concerning artists and scientists: Yes, there is some crossover, but very, very little. Your average MFA art student has never taken Organic Chemistry, because your average MFA art student would flunk Organic Chemistry. Hell, your average MFA art student has never taken General Chemistry or Calculus. On the other side, your average Ph.D. scientist of any stripe has never taken a Drawing class, and has no meaningful appreciation for the visual arts because he/she has never really been exposed to the visual arts. On a university campus, there is almost no traffic between the art studios and the science labs; the paths do not cross.

    But I will state this: the best scientists are artists in their scientific work, and the best artists are scientists in their artistic work.

    Steven A. Sylwester


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    #78821 - 06/23/10 01:34 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3288
    Loc: California
    I think there's been a misunderstanding regarding what I was trying to say about my lack of ability to draw or paint. It's possible I wasn't clear, so:

    1. I'm definitely below average at drawing. Probably well below average.

    2. No amount of practice will change my innate abilities in this area.

    3. That's okay.

    4. In fact, it's probably a good thing for me.

    5. It's hard for people of above-average+ ability to truly understand what it means to be below average at something (like, for example, schoolwork).

    5a. By this I mean, really understand what it means to lack ability, not just notice that someone else doesn't pick something up quickly.

    5b. Similarly, many teachers who aren't gifted have a hard time understanding (or even believing) how quickly gifted kids learn.

    6. When I meet or hear about kids who have trouble learning, my lack of drawing ability helps me get them, in the way that we refer to those special teachers who get our kids.

    I agree with Steven that it's important to be honest about this kind of thing. A major problem with our school system is that it pretends that below average learners can be made average or above. This is wishful thinking, and it's the basis of most of our problems.

    HTH,

    Val

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    #78826 - 06/23/10 02:25 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Val]
    Cricket2 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/11/09
    Posts: 2172
    Loc: Colorado
    Originally Posted By: Val
    .. A major problem with our school system is that it pretends that below average learners can be made average or above. This is wishful thinking, and it's the basis of most of our problems.

    I'd also venture to say that at least my local schools seem to be of the impression that bright avg kids can also be made to be gifted, which is also wishful thinking IMHO. We just had an article in our local paper about how one of the local districts is aspiring to have most of their kids in AP or IB classes. I can't imagine that this is a realistic goal.
    _________________________
    Study Strategies for Accelerated Learners

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    #78841 - 06/23/10 08:29 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    The Liebniz notation for Calculus has made Calculus accessible for many more than other wise could use it.

    Being able to combine things meaningfully and with brevity that others will understand is a key component of science. So it is in art as well.

    Sometimes, if you have a problem, the problem is the notation.


    Edited by Austin (06/23/10 08:37 PM)

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    #78883 - 06/24/10 08:15 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ]
    PoppaRex Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 06/09/10
    Posts: 44
    Steven, I think I'd have to delve into the relm of phiosophy in order to progress with the art discussion.

    My thoughts started off with wondering if it is a travesty even to have such a thing as a MFA. Then I drifted off to comparing an MFA to canned pop music derived from formulae, which though successful can be pretty taseless to me yet still contain some of the feel of art. Yet it doesn't have, to my way of thinking, the soul of art. The edginess. The ability to explore. I then wondered if fine art could be defined completely via math, and if that would change what art is?

    And then, there's the elephant who paints... Is it art? Does the elephant need to have a connection with the human soul or is it Art because even though it's not created with human intelligence or human creativity, the end result is how I percieve it.

    Is a photograph art? Has the artist done anything other than to identify "gee, this is pretty" and snap something that nature created randomly? Does that mean nature, without anything to say at all, has created art? If a tree fell in the forest and no one was around to photograph it, would it still be art?

    Lol, time for my meds.


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    #78919 - 06/24/10 01:50 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Val]
    @HomeDad Offline
    New Member

    Registered: 06/04/06
    Posts: 1
    Loc: Camp Hill, PA
    Regarding art, I dare you to work through Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.

    Check these before and after sketches by people who supposedly couldn't draw.
    http://drawright.com/gallery.htm

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    #78920 - 06/24/10 02:03 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: @HomeDad]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3288
    Loc: California
    You know, one of the things that really bugs me is that people tell me I can draw if I JUST TRY.

    I have no talent for drawing and nothing will change that.

    Think about how statements like this could have a nasty effect on a child, and make him feel inadequate: You can draw if you have a dream about drawing! You can draw if you follow my course! The only reason you're not reading at grade level is because you're not trying! It's all your fault!!

    Get over it people. Let people be below average at what we're not good at, so that we can move on and find things we CAN do.

    Memo from reality: wishful thinking won't make it so.

    Sheesh.

    Val

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    #78924 - 06/24/10 02:32 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Val]
    annaliisa Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/11/10
    Posts: 65
    Hi, I just thought that I'd jump in. I was in a gifted art program in public school and I can't draw. Never could. I did check out the before and afters http://drawright.com/gallery.htm. They have learned a technique. I do think that most people can learn this, if it gives them satisfaction that is great. I do, however, wholeheartedly agree with the post above.

    "Get over it people. Let people be below average at what we're not good at, so that we can move on and find things we CAN do."

    I spent a long time agonizing over that fact that I couldn't draw. It was a profound waste of time, especially since I didn't enjoy drawing. In the end I majored in sculpture/installation. It was a very good fit for me and I am comfortable with my inability to draw realistic images. Actually, I'm strangely proud of this inability.

    And.. I took a second look at those before/afters, I think that all of the "befores" are much more interesting. The afters are generic.


    Edited by annaliisa (06/24/10 02:43 PM)

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    #78926 - 06/24/10 02:44 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Val]
    BinB Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 11/03/09
    Posts: 42
    Loc: Bay Area, CA
    I believe you, Val! No one can know better than you whether or not you're a cr@ppy artist who will never be good. smile I will never be a salesperson -- I just don't have the talent or the instinct for it. And it's OK!

    Regarding the artist/scientist question: I know a lot of people who have talent in both areas. They tend to approach their art in a disciplined, analytical way. That might not be some people's idea of what an artist should be like -- artists are impulsively, wildly creative, right? Maybe...

    And to get back to the OP by our bitter, frustrated Generation Nexter -- it is sad to me that smart and talented people seem to be choosing to have fewer children than others. It's really frustrating to think that the population might be getting more stupid, selfish and intolerant because of that. I hope he/she overcomes this phase and contributes to the betterment of our world by becoming an awesome parent to hordes of well-adjusted little egg-heads.

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    #79138 - 06/28/10 07:22 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: BinB]
    JJsMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/25/09
    Posts: 921
    Quote:
    I spent a long time agonizing over that fact that I couldn't draw. It was a profound waste of time, especially since I didn't enjoy drawing. In the end I majored in sculpture/installation. It was a very good fit for me and I am comfortable with my inability to draw realistic images. Actually, I'm strangely proud of this inability.


    If I had to save lives by drawing, everyone would die. Seriously. Unless of course, I only had to draw stick figures. However, I impress many people with my ability to sculpt, especially out of Play-Doh. smile I cannot draw a flower better than an average 5 year old, but I can sculpt one beautifully!

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    #125395 - 03/13/12 05:05 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Rocky Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/21/10
    Posts: 37
    Just a quick thought 1) most people who have gifted children are gifted. So, been there, done that, and have the t-shirt to prove it. As an adult your life is what you make of it, and sometimes you have to leave the pain behind.

    2) Not all gifted people are quick. DH's IQ is hitting close to your range, and would be there if his processing speeds were faster. His family drives my family nuts.


    rocky

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    #132873 - 06/28/12 06:41 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: @HomeDad]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: @HomeDad
    Regarding art, I dare you to work through Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.

    Check these before and after sketches by people who supposedly couldn't draw.
    http://drawright.com/gallery.htm


    Hey, a two year old thread that's been resurrected for no good reason!

    You know, I've often considered trying to make the world more like Camp Hill, which is where @HomeDad is from.

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    #140525 - 10/16/12 09:46 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: makingaripple
    It is really hard for me to understand how people can walk around and have opinions or espouse views with no references, no research and no knowledge about the issue they are speaking of. Yet assume just because they open their mouths that somehow what they have to say is relevant?


    Because you are getting paid to talk and you can't just sit there and say nothing?

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    #140532 - 10/16/12 11:15 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    fwtxmom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/07/12
    Posts: 154
    Loc: N. TX
    I suppose you haven't spent much time in a courtroom makingaripple.

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    #140536 - 10/16/12 11:30 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Quote:

    Do gifted people, or would gifted people get paid to talk about something they know nothing about?


    No-- er, or perhaps, "Frequently." See, the thing is that it's often one's place to offer an opinion-- regardless of whether or not one happens to possess expertise in the particulars of the moment. Adulthood is filled with such "faking it" moments. I've learned that they are common not only for gifted persons, but for ALL people. Which brings me to the next statement...

    Quote:
    What about the larger implications of engaging in such activity?


    Well. Now there is a million-dollar question. I think that the nuanced version goes further. If one makes the assumption that such things as the former are inevitable among human beings...

    the only real question for individuals is whether it is better to speculate based on one's intellect and particular knowledge/experience (which may or may not be relevent and accurate), or to keep silent.

    If those of superior intellect choose the latter on the basis of imperfection, we are not preventing the former. We are not-- necessarily-- doing anything to provide genuine expertise in its absense. We may merely be creating a void.

    I'm not so much convinced that nature, per se abhors a vacuum, but human beings certainly like to fill silence.

    If smart people won't speak, I think it is a fair assumption to predict that the alternative isn't better.

    My opinions aren't necessarily "better" than anyone else's, but conversely, they are also not necessarily "worse" either. I've learned to speak up.

    My expertise? Nearly thirty years of what I would consider to be nominally 'adulthood.'

    Fools will rush in if others don't.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #140537 - 10/16/12 12:16 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: HowlerKarma]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    I'm not so much convinced that nature, per se abhors a vacuum, but human beings certainly like to fill silence.


    Maybe vacuums are lonely or just really enjoy the experience of being filled.


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    #140547 - 10/16/12 01:37 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Good point. LOL.

    Oh-- and expertise quite frequently does NOT result in any sort of consensus regarding what one could term factual "truth" in the first place. Take any three art critics and you'll get four to seven different opinions, all of them at least nominally "expert."

    So there's that.

    I mean, sure-- nobody wants to hear someone who isn't an electrical engineer expound on their personal "vision" of that subject. (In fact, some of us don't even want to listen to the expert there, but I digress...)

    If we decide that as individuals we lack a good understanding and prefer to keep silent (for fear of being wrong, perhaps) then we can't exactly argue that everone else should also be bound by our personal creed on that score and keep their traps zipped as well.

    Right? Because that really would be arrogant. What makes me an expert in deciding how much expertise is sufficient to allow someone to make erudite/informed statements on any particular subject? Nothing, that's what.

    Fact-based fields are terrific, because nothing is subjective. That's lovely, but it leaves a lot of things in life which are not categorized that way, where subjective truth is the only truth. Art appreciation, for example, simply doesn't operate by the rules which govern electrical engineering.

    The world would be a flat and boring place without disagreement regarding more-or-less subjective truths. I enjoy the variety, myself, even if I sometimes find naivete or ignorance quite bemusing or even exasperating.

    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #140550 - 10/16/12 01:55 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    One of the greatest contributions of the physical "fact-based" sciences to the human experience is their ability to astound us with how terribly wrong we've been on a regular basis. Because argue all you want, the results are the results. It's very humbling to know that the subjects upon which I'm considered an expert are the ones in which I'm most likely to be astonishingly wrong.

    Most researchers in the physical sciences are delighted when the results run counter to expectations, because that's when discoveries are made, and real learning begins.

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    #140552 - 10/16/12 01:59 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Yup. Makes life interesting, all right. grin
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #140554 - 10/16/12 02:01 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: HowlerKarma]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    The world would be a flat and boring place without disagreement regarding more-or-less subjective truths. I enjoy the variety, myself, even if I sometimes find naivete or ignorance quite bemusing or even exasperating.


    They're not subjective.

    They just can't be quantified or measured with a ruler or a Hadron Collider.

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    #140578 - 10/16/12 05:46 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2593
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma


    Fact-based fields are terrific, because nothing is subjective. That's lovely, but it leaves a lot of things in life which are not categorized that way, where subjective truth is the only truth. Art appreciation, for example, simply doesn't operate by the rules which govern electrical engineering.

    The world would be a flat and boring place without disagreement regarding more-or-less subjective truths. I enjoy the variety, myself, even if I sometimes find naivete or ignorance quite bemusing or even exasperating.



    Some disputes in the social sciences, such as those about the connection between intelligence and academic achievement, are informed by facts but also have subjective elements. These disputes can be more acrimonious than purely subjective ones, because each side in the dispute is convinced it is factually correct, and they can be more long-lasting than disagreements in the natural sciences, because they cannot be resolved by a single, clear-cut experiment.


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    #140764 - 10/18/12 06:34 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: makingaripple
    Had another, "I must be really stupid" moment today. But in the end it's difficult for me to measure that someone would metaphorically go to a food bank when not poor nor hungry, but it happens, a lot. I am apparently surrounded by all these very smart people. That about covers the social and the science. It's all relative and I'm a stupid animist after all. I shouldn't have gone out. How primitive could the Indigenous people actually be? All objective and subjective sciences can have evidence-based grounding and ultimately factually correct outcomes. But who is best prepared to discern the outcomes or solutions? I think that is where acrimony resides, which I suspect and I could be wrong, becomes an exercise in ego rather than anything else. Even art appreciation has rules(and history),is it observation or judgement? And there we are, back again to opinion. Does it matter that one likes paint by number paintings of poker playing dogs? No not really. However if the poker playing dog lovers teach art appreciation at an Art College, then yes, it's a problem. Or not. No problem.


    You're posting from an iPhone, right?

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    #141095 - 10/22/12 11:46 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics

    Now I look like I'm talking to myself on this thread.

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    #145233 - 01/02/13 08:39 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    whatisinevidence Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/02/13
    Posts: 6
    Originally Posted By: ACh
    Nevertheless, here is a selection of what your children may encounter:
    - the pain that comes from floating lonely in a sea of stupidity or ignorance with very little company
    - the isolation
    - the anger at the lack of nuance in the thought processes of the people around them
    - the impatience with the slow thought processes of others despite frequent practice at being patient
    - the fear of the possibility of the modern version of angry pitchfork-bearing peasants running after them for saying something that makes them look stupid or challenges their worldview
    - the fact that the vast majority of people in the world are, quite plainly, morons. If you read the news, you'll know what I mean.


    Hi,

    I'm sorry you have had so much trouble in your life. I think it's important to remember that richness of inner life (including alienation, depression, and so on) are universal. You may be more intelligent than almost everyone around you, but if you pay attention you'll find that feeling alone and cut off from others is something shared by everyone at some point. Additionally, intelligence does not make one ethical or more ethical than others. The 'morons' you decry are equally capable of making ethical choices, and ultimately being good is more important than being smart.

    To 'live hard' is to say to one's self, really that thing before me is another human being before whom I must forbear.

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    #148354 - 02/09/13 07:46 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    Greetings to all,

    I have to ask, do any of you feel a profound sense of isolation and lack of comprehension by others--especially parents and family members?

    I am a "profoundly gifted" 22 year old in my senior year of college. Though I do have encouraging friends, I am quite frustrated with my courses and the majority of my peers. I expect more initiative and intellectual curiosity out of them, yet to no avail frequently. In fact, I write my syllabi because of the pace attempted many of my classes. While some professors have "taken me under their wing" and encouraged me through directed studies, I am rather tired of the befuddled looks (I recieved from others) and sense of rejection that I get even from my parents.

    For example, I work out math proofs for hours on end and attempt to apply statistics to new fields, such as medieval literature. My parents and family members in turn tell me to "cool my heels" and "stop being so nerdy all the time". Often, I recieved comments growing up about how I needed a "lesson in socialization" by mitigating the time I spent perusing books.

    They do not especially like or appreciate mathematics, statistics, or medieval literature--three fields in which I would like to delve further.

    I feel as though my own family and many of my peers cannot understand me. What should I do and how can I overcome these feelings of inadequacy?
    I feel misunderstood


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    #148498 - 02/12/13 06:08 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: QT3.1414]
    iynait Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/01/13
    Posts: 40
    Loc: NJ
    QT3.1414,
    College is a good place for you. Take some courses in pure math at higher level and you'll be challenged. Make some friends in pure math and join their club. Most of them are extremely smart.

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    #148511 - 02/12/13 07:34 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Zen Scanner Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/13/12
    Posts: 1478
    Loc: NC
    Hi QT3,
    It's theory of mind; just have to realize that not everyone sees, views, understands the world the same way you do. And even when you feel compelled to share your enthusiasm, it is unrealistic to hope for anything beyond someone supporting your excitement and realize they are no more interested in the topic than you might be in what someone's cousin wore to wedding (perhaps.)

    The starting point would be to get into an organization and plan a post-grad path that will bring you in contact with people who share an enthusiasm in the same areas that you do. On the other hand, it is surreal to my mind the idea of feeling inadequate because people can't understand my interests. What matters that input compared to finding peers and in particular finding yourself a mentor who is interested in your interests?

    When caught out by someone in your family, picture the tables turned with them sitting at a dinner with yourself and two or three of your favorite instructors.

    I'm certain most of here have been there and have found or not found our paths through and beyond.

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    #148518 - 02/12/13 08:45 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    metis Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/25/13
    Posts: 26
    I'm PG as well (like many parents on this board), and I understand your feelings.

    We can't change the world so that it suits us better (sorry! We are outliers!), but we can change. This has helped me, and this is what I teach my son. I'd love to hear if you think this well help my son as he gets older and faces the disillusionment of youth.

    -be patient.
    In those moments of waiting, learn to observe, guess, play mental games with yourself, have imaginative flights of fancy, or just be in the moment, with a quiet mind, meditative, and waiting.

    -be interested.
    People are an amazing mystery, dig in. Can you use your brilliant intellect to truly understand the people around you? Would they say that you totally "got" them? Would they say they liked you? Yes, their thoughts and beliefs will frustrate you. Just accept them as they are. Respect the opinions of others, even if you think they are moronic. Maybe others can't reason as well as you, but there are some lessons that only life experience teaches. **There is wisdom in others, learn to look for it.**

    -be humble.
    You have a gift that you didn't earn. Don't flaunt it.
    It will *always* make the majority of people uncomfortable to feel the full edge of your intellect, so learn to blunt that edge. It's not important how smart others find you, but how smart you find others. No one wants to feel stupid, and just being around you, even blunted, will induce that feeling. Mitigate it.

    Lastly,
    -be on the search for others like you, and let that be your refuge.

    These things have helped me, but they won't take away the isolation--that one you have to live with. We are all gifted (even PG folks) in vastly different ways, but life can be very beautiful, even in solitude.

    If you have more advice for parents, please share.
    I appreciate your comments. smile







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    #148616 - 02/13/13 09:45 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Metis, I'd like to frame that post. VERY well-stated. smile

    Being both humble and truly open to what we can learn from others is a huge challenge at high LOG-- one that most of us don't really learn to meet until we are fully mature as adults (after college some time).

    Using one's intellect to learn to 'pass' among normative people is both interesting/amusing and far more rewarding that one imagines as a younger person, by the way. I actually recommend this approach. I'm a far happier person than my (less gifted) spouse who has NOT chosen to do so.

    If you are a person who truly cannot develop that kind of theory of mind, or have a great deal of social difficulty even when you are actively trying to fit in and enjoy others, it's probably worth consulting a professional to find out if there may be more going on than just being PG. Being on the spectrum can also lead to many of the same problems, but the solutions may need to be different. Understanding your self is a good way to understand and be more comfortable with your place in the world.

    Another thing that I've noticed in learning to just ENJOY my life:

    ephemerality is paradoxically both a great source of joy and also a source of sadness and frustration. Things are often beautiful or transcendental simply BECAUSE they can't/don't last... and this is what "living in the moment" truly means. Being higher LOG makes it a very difficult proposition emotionally. It takes discipline to live in the moment, but if you can do it, it makes all of life meditative and rewarding. I don't mean following others' agenda for you, by any means.

    So if a class is boring or unrewarding, bring a sketchpad and make elaborate doodles... enjoy the scenery outside the window...write Haiku about the experience... notice what every person in the room is wearing... translate the speaker into a foreign language in your notes. Invent your own shorthand. Produce "illuminated manuscript" versions of class notes-- just because you can and you like it.


    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #148903 - 02/17/13 05:54 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: QT3.1414]
    tazi19 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/16/13
    Posts: 22
    Loc: Asia
    Originally Posted By: QT3.1414
    Greetings to all,

    I have to ask, do any of you feel a profound sense of isolation and lack of comprehension by others--especially parents and family members?

    I am a "profoundly gifted" 22 year old in my senior year of college. Though I do have encouraging friends, I am quite frustrated with my courses and the majority of my peers. I expect more initiative and intellectual curiosity out of them, yet to no avail frequently. In fact, I write my syllabi because of the pace attempted many of my classes. While some professors have "taken me under their wing" and encouraged me through directed studies, I am rather tired of the befuddled looks (I recieved from others) and sense of rejection that I get even from my parents.

    For example, I work out math proofs for hours on end and attempt to apply statistics to new fields, such as medieval literature. My parents and family members in turn tell me to "cool my heels" and "stop being so nerdy all the time". Often, I recieved comments growing up about how I needed a "lesson in socialization" by mitigating the time I spent perusing books.

    They do not especially like or appreciate mathematics, statistics, or medieval literature--three fields in which I would like to delve further.

    I feel as though my own family and many of my peers cannot understand me. What should I do and how can I overcome these feelings of inadequacy?
    I feel misunderstood



    I think you are a gift to the world. Keep reminding yourself that although normal people have their strengths, normal can never be amazing. You have the talent (and the duty?) to be amazing.

    That said, I'm 43 and still struggling with the issues you raise. Only about 1 out of 20 people I try to befriend can actually stand to be around me, for lack of shared interest.

    I am so glad I had the chance to move to another country where intellectual talent is valued. I found it is easier to make friends here.

    One thing that helped me take the focus off of my feelings was to reach out to PG children and offer to mentor them in mathematics so that they know someone appreciates, cares about, and understands them. So far, every parent has been happy for me to be involved in their child's life, and I discovered one of the moms is also PG, so in the end I also made a new friend my age! I think there are some websites that match mentors to students. Might be worth a try!
    _________________________
    "Normal can never be amazing." - Mini USA

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    #149098 - 02/20/13 03:41 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of your comments. This information is vital and will help me in many ways.

    I cannot thank you enough for all of your wonderful insight and encouragement! I am definitely going to take everything into consideration and apply it to the best of my ability.

    I really appreciate this forum where I've had the pleasure of communicating with informed and wise individuals such as yourselves! Thanks again for all of the feedback. It means a lot.

    Also, I even though I have an IQ of 170 I do not find myself to be any more "intelligent" than my peers. I simply have more ambition, dedication to my studies, cerebral interests, and intellectual curiosity than many of them do. Perhaps if they delved into literature and mathematics to the same degree, (from an exceedingly young age)they would also be as brilliant (if not more) than I.

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    #149099 - 02/20/13 03:53 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    Another thing is this:

    Sometimes I feel like a burden placed upon my professors and parents.

    To elucidate, my parents lacked the money to give me the necessary opportunities as a child and adolescent to further develop my academic potential.

    Furthermore, I feel guilty asking for more challenging assignments. I avoid demanding for more rigorous coursework in some cases when I know the professor will apply it to the entire class. I don't want to be responsible for the rest (or many) of the students struggling and/or stressing. Thus, some professors will understand my plight, whereas others do not.

    Am I being too hard on myself, or is this a realistic concern that others in the same situation may undergo? Have any of you experienced these feelings?

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    #149168 - 02/21/13 09:36 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Zen Scanner Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/13/12
    Posts: 1478
    Loc: NC
    I'd feel a little guilty in college when I'd ask the professor a deep detailed question looking aroung the nuances of the subject. Then someone would ask: Will this be on the test? or such and I'd feel a bit righteous.

    The person teaching at the university is first an expert and passionate in their field. If you ask for complexity and depth in their field in a genuine interest to delve, there is a good chance they'll be happy to have someone as interested in their subject as themselves. If it is simply a statement of wishing challenge, that's something else.

    I don't remember a class in college that required me to ask them to provide extra depth as I could see areas to explore myself. Education is not something that is fed to you, it is something you garner unto yourself. I had a few "pet" professors with whom I could make 10-15 minute meetings to talk about material I'd been rooting out myself outside of class.

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    #149172 - 02/21/13 10:16 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3288
    Loc: California
    I think a lot depends on the professor.

    I took an introductory chemistry class in college. At some point, the professor said we could write an essay for extra credit. I thought that the essay topics were all kind of fluffy, so I asked her if I could write about a topic in nuclear chemistry instead. I told her what I wanted to put into the essay and she gave me a green light. It was great!

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    #149303 - 02/22/13 07:08 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    thanks for all of your input! It is wonderful to hear from others with similar experiences.

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    #149370 - 02/24/13 12:02 PM A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    What do you all think of MENSA, out of curiosity?

    I am unsure of the purpose of it and if it is even worth consideration.

    Sure it might look good on a resume, but there is also the danger of scaring away employers with this, right?

    I can't help but wonder why people sign up for it--is this simply for bragging rights?

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    #149372 - 02/24/13 01:20 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    AlexsMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/01/10
    Posts: 741
    I suspect that people who "scare away employers" by putting their IQ score (or SAT score, or Mensa membership) on their resume are not scaring away employers for the reason they think they are.

    IMHO, social memberships do not belong on professional resumes.

    (I've been to a meeting of the local Mensa chapter; I think the people who joined mostly did so to meet like-minded folks.)

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    #149382 - 02/24/13 04:54 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    Alex's Mom: If there were a "like" button present here as there is on facebook, I would have clicked it for your response! =]

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    #149387 - 02/24/13 07:51 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: AlexsMom]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: AlexsMom
    I suspect that people who "scare away employers" by putting their IQ score (or SAT score, or Mensa membership) on their resume are not scaring away employers for the reason they think they are.


    They're being flagged as "socially awkward and/or clueless" that's for sure.

    I suspect that "Name of Undergraduate College Attended" is the way that employers screen for intelligence these days.


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    #149392 - 02/24/13 10:06 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: JonLaw]
    CCN Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/12
    Posts: 978
    Loc: BC, Canada
    Originally Posted By: JonLaw
    [quote=AlexsMom]I suspect that people who "scare away employers" by putting their IQ score (or SAT score, or Mensa membership) on their resume are not scaring away employers for the reason they think they are.


    It always worked ok for me (Mensa on resume) although I did get some strange interview questions, like "What's it like being surrounded by people who are not as smart as you."

    (sigh) Good grief.... as if life experience and perspective means nothing. People are strange. I just don't understand them. (Not so smart after all ;p ) lol



    Edited by CCN (02/24/13 10:06 PM)

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    #149419 - 02/25/13 07:23 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    whatisinevidence Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/02/13
    Posts: 6
    QT3.1414,

    Does your interest in Medieval Literature extend to studying Medieval Latin and other languages? Learning new languages is always challenging and interesting... and humbling.

    Does your school allow undergrads to do independent study or offer research funding?

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    #149509 - 02/25/13 07:03 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    Hello to all of you =)

    Whatisinevidence..I have a question for you...

    First off, do you consider yourself a positivist and/or an empiricist? Just wondering based on your name =)

    and yes, I would love to study Latin--French is my first language so I find a significant amount of French words deriving out of Latin (which is fun)

    Right now, I am trying to work on something called "quantitative literature" where I like to apply mathematical modeling and statistical methodologies to understanding literature, philosophy, and psychology. It probably does not amount to much but it gives me a lot to do and I thoroughly enjoy the challenge =)

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    #149510 - 02/25/13 07:07 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    I digressed, I am terribly sorry.

    Yes, we certainly do. I am on my fourth directed study and have concocted numerous research projects, which is immensely interesting and enjoyable.

    I suppose the hardest part is relating to my classmates. I have plenty of friends but I suppress A LOT in order to "get good grades", conform to the expectations of the professor (though some encourage creativity), and not come off as excessively strange. It is lonely, for sure.

    How do you all cope with this frustration in your daily lives? I would love to know

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    #149511 - 02/25/13 07:12 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    Hello CCN,

    I appreciate your comment as well.

    My question is this:

    How do you deal with the problem of immersing yourself with people?

    I am troubled by this as well.
    I supposed so much so that I can come off as "normal" or "typical."

    Nevertheless, I carry a notebook around ALL the time and write feverishly/furiously whenever I have some research ideas, mathematical models and solutions coming to mind, and poems.

    These are all the things I cannot possibly share with those around me out of fear and/or looks of dismay and confusion.

    What do you do to overcome your perception of people?

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    #150068 - 03/05/13 04:09 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: QT3.1414]
    CCN Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/12
    Posts: 978
    Loc: BC, Canada
    Originally Posted By: QT3.1414
    Hello CCN,

    I appreciate your comment as well.

    My question is this:

    How do you deal with the problem of immersing yourself with people?

    I am troubled by this as well.
    I supposed so much so that I can come off as "normal" or "typical."

    Nevertheless, I carry a notebook around ALL the time and write feverishly/furiously whenever I have some research ideas, mathematical models and solutions coming to mind, and poems.

    These are all the things I cannot possibly share with those around me out of fear and/or looks of dismay and confusion.

    What do you do to overcome your perception of people?


    I guess I've learned to blend and connect. Once I get to know people I'm definitely much more comfortable. Otherwise I just keep fairly quiet and observe.

    Also, I firmly believe that everyone, regardless of intellect, has something to contribute. It could be an anecdote about a place I've never been, info about a hobby I've never tried, the plot of a movie I've never seen, or just... attitude or state of being: determination, gratitude, optimism, grace, refinement, kindness, open mindedness, etc.


    Edited by CCN (03/05/13 05:02 PM)

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    #151093 - 03/16/13 11:02 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: QT3.1414]
    whatisinevidence Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/02/13
    Posts: 6
    Originally Posted By: QT3.1414
    First off, do you consider yourself a positivist and/or an empiricist? Just wondering based on your name =)

    and yes, I would love to study Latin--French is my first language so I find a significant amount of French words deriving out of Latin (which is fun)

    Right now, I am trying to work on something called "quantitative literature" where I like to apply mathematical modeling and statistical methodologies to understanding literature, philosophy, and psychology. It probably does not amount to much but it gives me a lot to do and I thoroughly enjoy the challenge =)


    I am not a positivist, no. I think Wittgenstein's criticism of positivism is pretty thorough and devastating. By the way, I think you would love Wittgenstein, if you don't read him already.

    Your "quantitative literature" focus sounds interesting. I think that kind of thing could yield really interesting results with certain texts.

    For the isolation stuff, maybe ou should try grad school. In the right program you'd find people similar to yourself.


    Edited by whatisinevidence (03/16/13 11:02 AM)

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    #151791 - 03/23/13 11:42 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Bluestar Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/23/13
    Posts: 11
    I echo your feelings; however, as I got older I learned how to find people to talk to, even if just my dad. I think we can make the world a better place; it would be disastrous to stop producing intellectual humans. I wish though that more would be done to try to understand genius.

    At least you were identified. I was not; and had no means of explaining myself to others, that penetrated their fog. I couldn't say: well, I have a good reason for my feelings/thoughts- my IQ is higher than yours.

    One more thing- I would bet anything that you would be a great parent because you would make sure to meet as many needs as you could for your children and you would be successful at it.

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    #151792 - 03/23/13 12:05 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: QT3.1414]
    Bluestar Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/23/13
    Posts: 11
    I am a hermit mostly, but occasionally find someone to share a particular topic with, indepth. I do not push people to talk my way anymore.

    I am usually friendless although there are a few occasions I find interest with a person for a while; most times I go beyond them after a period of time.

    I have trouble with motivation and tend toward laziness (well, that means sitting here doing stuff like this). I just do not know what I want to do or what I would be most effective with. At present I have decided to put my kids as my predominant priority; I want to give them as much as I can, that I was not given, education-wise.

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    #152217 - 03/29/13 10:50 AM A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Alana Bartok Offline
    New Member

    Registered: 03/29/13
    Posts: 1
    Loc: Laguna Beach, CA
    I see that you have an interest in math. Can you recommend any math academy's for summer camp in Southern California?

    Alana

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    #152221 - 03/29/13 01:15 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    QT3.1414 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/09/13
    Posts: 63
    Bluestar:

    I imagine that we would get along splendidly and become friends =)
    I get so exasperated and disheartened frequently, though I have never felt lazy. I do question the "telos" of even getting an education though. If I can learn the material on my own at home, it bores me to tears to attend classes where I have already read the primary sources involved.

    What do you mean about "I go beyond them after a period of time"? Does this translate to boredom, essentially? I appreciate what you are saying about being a good parent; nonetheless, I am so fervently dedicated to my research that I don't see that being an option.

    What all do your interests entail? I would like to know =)
    Furthermore, thanks for your encouragement; oftentimes I envision a better life if I were more normal and had socially acceptable interests that do not involve learning differential equations for fun (for instance).I sometimes feel lesser than those around me due to my rather esoteric interests.

    Another quick question: What were you not given education-wise that you wish to extend to your children?

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    #152223 - 03/29/13 01:30 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Zen Scanner Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/13/12
    Posts: 1478
    Loc: NC
    QT3, if you are strongly drawn to research, then education would be the path to get there. Presuming you want to be focused and not just have a hobby in that area (and presuming that income is a relevant consideration.)

    In post-graduate work you can begin to engage, bump heads, refine, argue your concepts with others with similar or tangential interests. Even undergraduate, the potential exists; request to take graduate seminars and bring your geist to each class over and beyond the requirements and material as presented. Passion paves paths.

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    #152578 - 04/03/13 02:39 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    kikiandkyle Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/23/12
    Posts: 83
    The laziness is a real struggle for me. After my daughter was diagnosed with ADD I started to consider that maybe I had it too, I actually ended up being prescribed a very mild stimulant that at least gets me out of bed in the mornings, and my house is a lot cleaner.

    I am also very lost when it comes to knowing what I want to do in life. Unfortunately I didn't make it to college because of various family issues, and it's not really something I can remedy now, so I'm left feeling like I could do so much, but can only do very little if you know what I mean.

    What's interesting is that my mom is exactly the same, and has flitted through various colleges and careers but never seen any of them through. My sister however, who was given up for adoption at birth, ended up getting a phd and has a research career that she loves. I guess nurture really does trump nature.

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    #152584 - 04/03/13 02:52 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: kikiandkyle]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: kikiandkyle
    What's interesting is that my mom is exactly the same, and has flitted through various colleges and careers but never seen any of them through. My sister however, who was given up for adoption at birth, ended up getting a phd and has a research career that she loves. I guess nurture really does trump nature.


    Siblings can be very different by nature, so I wouldn't rush to judgement on the nurture factor.

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    #152587 - 04/03/13 02:57 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    kikiandkyle Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/23/12
    Posts: 83
    We're actually extremely similar in a lot of ways, there are 6 of us altogether and she's the only one with any kind of college degree or career even though we all had the potential.

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    #152647 - 04/04/13 08:59 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    1frugalmom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/02/12
    Posts: 312
    Loc: Central United States
    This post/thread has really been interesting!

    I know I for one would love to hear from the younger generation regarding what worked (or didn't work) for them when they were going through primary and secondary school. Personally, we are just wading through, trying this and that, in an attempt to help our daughters the best we can and we feel like we aren't doing enough or the right things. Any suggestions from a generation that has more recently "been there done that" would be whole-heartedly welcomed!

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    #194961 - 06/19/14 03:41 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    ACh Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/20/10
    Posts: 20
    I'm stunned how popular this thread got. I'm the original poster.

    It's been four years since I posted this. I've now graduated; I have a bachelor's degree in biology, graduated with honors and a 3.69, and have a publication. I'm heading toward a PhD still.

    It hasn't gotten much better, to be honest (I mean, it has somewhat but it's still not easy), but I've found some directions in which to look. The trick is getting back in the game - I'm presently in the awkward position of having to wait a year to start graduate school, so I need a lab tech job to tide me over.

    It's not easy.

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    #195480 - 06/26/14 11:02 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Wesupportgifted Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/14/13
    Posts: 157
    Time really does fly. Yeah, we agree - it is not easy.

    Any ideas that you have to help education of all of the children and gifted kids are helpful.

    School has mainly been fun and social so far.

    We even worry about the non-gifted children not realizing that the gifted kids can get up to speed on any topic unbelievably fast. It feels like there is no way to help the non-gifted kids along the way. They can't tell or see that school is too easy compared to what the human brain can do. If you can't rely on your brain to make a living, perhaps that is when young people get into trouble making their livings in other ways and it hurts the whole society, too.

    So, please post any educational ideas that you have. Thanks.

    Congratulations and well done.

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    #195489 - 06/27/14 08:40 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Wesupportgifted Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/14/13
    Posts: 157
    Try to really be in every moment, follow your instincts and see how things line up. Use that naturally analytical mind. Keep putting yourself exactly where you truly want to be and that's how you know you are on the right path. You line up the you that you know better than anyone else with what you are supposed to be doing next. It sounds like you are on the right path. That's great!

    Not to spell it out too much or to be too obvious, pay attention to how things do or do not work out according to plan. Sometimes, time has to pass in order to see the bigger picture, but, focus on those gut feelings that you get and let them guide you. It's possible you'll find over decades that you can trust your feelings and instincts. Knowing that when you are young can be a huge advantage.

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    #197869 - 08/05/14 06:53 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Edward Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/19/14
    Posts: 52
    Im very proud that things are working out for you. smile cool


    My advise to you is join a secret society or form one with people who speak the same language as yourself. Trying to deal with the rest of the world is unhealthy, and to put it bluntly they are not worth your time considering the agony they have put you through. What ever you bring to the realm of human progress you deserve to be recognized, and certainly you deserve to have that appreciated. I have great respect for people who dedicate their life to creating anything beautiful.

    I did read your original post and not to upset you are spot on. IMO what makes it worse are the very institutions that use a mission statement only as a feel good advertisement. Little substance backs it up, I know this because I have seen it first hand.

    I thank you for taking the time to type this up. I hope you stay around this forum, you sound like you have a lot to contribute IMO.

    Thanks for being part of this forum smile

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    #223701 - 10/12/15 07:15 PM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    thx1138 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/30/12
    Posts: 93
    What kept me alive:
    - Chopin
    - Nisargadatta
    - Ketamine

    Dabrowski is also worth investigating.

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    #232436 - 07/23/16 09:32 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    LazyMum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/09/15
    Posts: 105
    Hubby tested at 186 in school, I did a test with a ceiling of 145, which I hit. Neither of us did anything remotely academic with our lives. We're very happy and well adjusted. We value goodness and humour in our friends. We enjoy food. We travel. We watch too much Netflix. I had my existential crisis in my early 20s. I hope that's all you're going through. Here's the conclusion I came too, in case it helps: there is no meaning to life, and people mostly suck, but I'm here, and I'd rather be alive than dead, and while I'm alive I can surround myself with things that I enjoy, and people who don't suck. Hope life gets cheerier for you smile

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    #233127 - 08/24/16 02:07 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    lechien Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/06/14
    Posts: 9
    Loc: Berlin, Germany
    Is there such a thing as a forum for gifted adults (that’s free)? All I can find are for parents with gifted children. I see things I struggle with are discussed here, though spanning over some years, I see.

    I feel that for me the issue isn’t so much about whether others are “morons” or not, but this devastating isolation. I can give myself mental stimulation by reading, writing, etc., but nothing compares to the experience of being nurtured by evolving with like-minded people. I am increasingly shying away from social situations because not only is it one-dimensional (and it’s uncomfortable to feel that way about other people) but also there is a lot of power games, which is an utter waste of time, stupid, and in order to maintain any social contacts on peaceful terms, I find myself making myself appear stupider than them so that they won’t get competitive with me. Otherwise people regard me as some sort of a mentor. These are people who consider themselves creatives and intellectuals. I don’t consider myself such a smart person, I rather want to be guided and taught, but above all be equal to the others. It’s such a paradoxical feeling, exhausting.

    Even my psychotherapist, who is not a bad therapist generally, unwittingly says things that are deflating, discouraging, and sometimes even insulting. I understand where he is coming from, it’s probably just that he is not the right therapist for people like me. He also thinks that I have a paranoia of *feeling* like I am always misunderstood. I don’t think it’s a “feeling”…

    Who feels that a day is too short to read all the books and make music and experience nature and watch news and learn a language and ruminate over trivial things in their lives to magnify and expand their inner worlds, and then get paralysed by the avalanche of visions? Who feels that we are here with a purpose, no matter how small and hidden, and are driven to extend beyond personal fulfilment and contribute to the excellence of human civilisation? Who feels that humanity has not given itself enough words and wants to simply let themselves drop in the middle of a room at the impossibility of our existence? Where are the people with inspirations running through their veins?

    I feel suffocated. It’s like I accidentally trapped myself in an upside down world. And the worst is when I convince myself that I am crazy.

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    #233129 - 08/24/16 04:55 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    sanne Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/16
    Posts: 289
    There is an adult section here. Barely used, but let's start! I posted there yesterday!

    I struggle to find community where I'm not a mentor/leader and not having to constantly play politics to manage threats of malicious envy. I'm tired of dumbing down my vocabulary. I'm tried of random people - strangers - telling me I'm so "bright" and "smart". I'm tired of being judged for NOT having local friends.

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    #233132 - 08/24/16 06:00 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: sanne]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    There is an adult section here. Barely used, but let's start! I posted there yesterday!
    The gifted adult forum is here. smile

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    #233172 - 08/25/16 05:44 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    lechien Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/06/14
    Posts: 9
    Loc: Berlin, Germany
    Ooh, I'll head right over there! Is it new? It was almost 2 years ago I was last here (though only briefly). smile

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    #233282 - 08/28/16 10:50 AM Re: A question from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Edward Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/19/14
    Posts: 52
    When I was young I had a long conversations with 2 other gifted students, one who attended a private school and another a public school. One was taught through his schooling and another via other gifted individuals to always hide their true everything in front of anyone outside their peer group. Both had been taught an extensive and elaborate system or neuro-languistics, vocabulary, dress style and so forth to look "average" projecting an IQ of no more than 100 and slightly outgoing yet oblivious.

    I however had always found this questionable, and often objected to it at times which was met with much contempt. Sure it looks like a great tool for survival and an easy life, but basically advances 4 negatives: 1. Having to put on such an act drains you. If you have few or not friends it becomes an existential death. 2. It makes it harder for gifted people to find one another. 3. It can and does at times create elitist groups. 4, and perhaps the biggest peeve of mine: it yet again sets the limits on what society perceives. Suddenly no one ever sees anything over 105. A teacher who encounters 10 gifted students in 15 years all of which are hiding it will become very alarmed when student number 11 comes along being themselves. In my eyes it is a massive disservice aiding the dumbing down of society which is in itself a conspiracy. People understand what is common, not what looks like a freak oddity.

    As you would guess, such views did not make me well liked.

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    #240692 - 12/12/17 06:07 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    Kit kat Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/02/16
    Posts: 3
    I just rejoined when I read this post. WONDERFUL! Is it a gift or a curse? I am so frustrated with caregivers I end up yelling or sending subtle "you are an idiot" emails. Im 62 and disabled. I lived in NYC where the best of the best go, for 30 years. My doctors were very good. Now I live in a log cabin in the mountains (which I love) and I can't believe the incompetence here. I have been dysregulated and angry for a long time and my therapists don't get that I not only have a high IQ but many other issues that cause anger and frustration. My current therapist is very smart but she tells me not to research my diagnoses or medications and to stay out of forums. Ive had horrible, incurable dry mouth that rotted my teeth since 2010. I put my meds and side effects in excel and discovered 10 medications and all my OTC drugs cause dry mouth. 10 doctors didn't see that. I had a gifted/intuitive trauma therapist I loved and she died. I never felt invalidated or angry with her and though my current one is smart, she is so stubborn and dogmatic I leave in a rage. I did better when I self medicated.

    I tried to get in Mensa but I'm a visual spatial learner and creatively gifted so I blundered the test. For years I had gifted friends I communicated with telepathically and now I'm too sick to get out much. I really enjoy this forum. I get the validation I need.

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    #240694 - 12/12/17 08:39 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    sanne Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/16
    Posts: 289
    Hi Kit Kat! Disabled and intelligent is a tough one, isn't it?!! I am so "over" doctors. I had/have 12 misdiagnoses over 13 years, by 11 doctors. Unbelievable! I figured out my actual condition with my friend Google, and then medical testing verified my diagnosis was correct. Validating! But knowing more about the condition than the doctors is defeating!

    I've also moved to a rural area. I physically can't keep up with social demands. Fortunately, I stumbled upon a neighbor family that is highly intelligent. I'm not well enough to see them often, but it's fuel for the soul to meet with similar people.

    I am deeply frustrated that my condition comes with transient but chronic cerebral hypoperfusion/hypoxia, so I'm often cognitively impaired. I suppose the silver lining is the experience helps me relate to a wider range of people. But it prevents me from learning, reading heavy, and creating. Is there anything worst than being an extremely talented artist and being unable to master your craft?

    I'm sorry you're struggling to get the therapy and treatments you need. It's very hard. (((Hugs)))


    Edited by sanne (12/12/17 09:41 PM)

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    #240697 - 12/12/17 09:37 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: Kit kat]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    KitKat and sanne... a new book which may be of interest:
    UNDOCTORED, by William Davis, MD. Copyright 2017.
    Here's a link to a post in the thread on books for adults.

    Also possibly of interest: a healthcare pricing article
    How to provide patients the up-front price of treatment
    John Campanelli
    Journal of Medical Economics
    Nov 10, 2017
    This article's main audience is people within the healthcare industry. The article includes mention of the following websites as Online Pricing Resources, some of which are geared for patients:
    1) www.Amino.com
    2) www.healthcarebluebook.com
    3) www.MDsave.com
    4) www.medibid.com
    5) www.vitals.com

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    #240706 - 12/12/17 09:42 PM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    sanne Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/16
    Posts: 289
    Thank you for the book suggestion @indigo! It looks interesting! The library system here has it! I've put in a request and will be impatiently waiting for it to arrive.

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    #240708 - 12/13/17 08:12 AM Re: A warning from a gifted adult. [Re: ACh]
    RRD Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/04/16
    Posts: 278
    In my case, the problem isn't the level of intelligence of those around me (I am in a pretty good profession for it and live in a neighborhood full of professionals). My issues are my voracious appetite for books (for me and for kiddos) and my weird thirst for learning (instruments, languages, cooking, science, history, etc. etc. etc.). I do tend to minimize that a bit just so that I won't appear too odd to those around me and I share with those who share the same passions.

    I have found a pretty cool website - Your Rainforest Mind by Paula Prober. It really appeals to me. You might want to check it out.


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