Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional It breaks my heart...

Today was Music Together which Bear (3.2) loves once he's there, but he hates leaving to go to it. I asked him why, if it was the people, the place, the teacher, the music? He finally answered that he didn't like that he never knew who was going to be there (lots of kids have been absent and there have been several new kids).

At class one of the new kids kept moving the cushions around and Bear would run to put them back just to repeat the process several times. He told me later it wasn't ok for the other boy to move the pillows. It bothered him.

He can't stand it when the rest of the kids are moving around. He goes to the edge of the class and just watches and avoided the other kids almost totally at the last birthday party we went to.

Then after class, in the car, totally out of the blue he said, "I wish class was just me and you. I wish there was JUST me and you and Wolf and Daddy, no one else." He added in a few more people he is very close to after some prodding, but not many.

A three year old shouldn't be saying things like that. I don't know what else we can do. Even his Head Start teacher is coming up against all the same walls we had in her attempts to get help for him. He's still in line to see a psychologist in a month or two and we might have figured out a way to get him into OT, but this just seems like something more than just SID.

Anyone else have kids like this? Anyone have diagnoses? Any suggestions?

Poor sweet little boy. It's wonderful that he can put his feelings into words though. I imagine that will help the therapist teach him how to cope with things better. Maybe as he grows this will change a bit as well.

For now, no suggestions but big hugs!

Obviously I don't know your full situation. It is impossible to know another person's situation online especially from a single post so please don't think I am disagreeing with you. I will say however, that just in what you describe in this post I don't see a lot to be heartbroken about. Some people are introverts. Some kids don't like busy. noisy groups. Some kids mature more quickly or slowly in different areas of development. Those are within the acceptable range of development.

For what it is worth, even as an extrovert I would come away from kids' music classes and preschool totally exhausted and on sensory overload. I would have had more fun if it had only been my kid and maybe one friend. Many three year olds are very noisy, rule breaking and busy. Of course that is developmentally appropriate for many of them but it can still be hard to take.

As I said I don't know the broader picture so I'm not trying to be dismissive. I would though exercise caution on drawing conclusions about your child based on preschool music class. It is not uncommon for kids to find that overwhelming.

I don't think you are being dismissive. I don't know how much you know about the program, but here is a quick synopsis. Music Together has very small classes. Today there were only 5 children other than Bear and one of those was an infant. None of them were rowdy or antagonistic. There is no expectation for the kids to perform or even join in if they don't want to. Classes are only about 45 min. It is about the most low stress organized kid thing that I have ever experienced. In fact that is why we chose it for him because we felt he needed to start working on some type of interaction with other little ones.

It's not just one class. This is how he is about class every week. This is how he is on playgrounds and at birthday parties. When he said he wanted only him, me, Wolf and Daddy he meant EVER. That is what breaks my heart... I don't think it is him being introverted because he doesn't really seem that way at home. I'm pretty introverted myself and that just doesn't ring right for him.

I had a very similar experience with my son (now 5). His music class only had a handful of kids, lasted about the same length of time, and had a wonderful and very understanding teacher. My son (he was three at the time) used to through fits about going, but loved it when he was there. Like yours, he likes predictable routines, and there were rarely all of the students in the class each week.

I can tell you that as it was the first thing we did where he was away from family, I would encourage him to go and reward him if he went and stayed for the class. I told him he could leave, and I would take him home, but then there would be no reward. We left without the reward a couple of times (and he was upset, and wanted to go back, but I didn't want him to feel that he could come and go as he pleased in the class). Sometimes it was absolute heck (and I felt guilty, but I also knew if he had no exposure to being away from us, school would be horrid for him), but I persisted, and the day came where he went in happily.

A lot of sensitive kids have hard times transitioning from one activity to another, and especially when they will go into an environment where it is unpredictable. Even though it is very laid back from an adult perspective, for a child who is sensitive, it can be a bit overwhelming. That said, unless he is totally miserable (and as you said, he enjoys it when he's there - he's probably experincing a type of anticipatory anxiety rather than disliking the actual class), learning to deal with this may be a good thing.

Mine struggled terribly with those kinds of situations at that age. He was rigid about routines, frustrated by other kids' failure to adhere to his expectations, and had trouble participating in groups. He has Asperger's Syndrome.

This is not to say yours definitely does; I don't do armchair diagnosis. But "sensory issues" are often a marker of autism spectrum disorders. (And often not; you need a pro to tease this out.) Gifted kids often don't have the conventional language problems or behaviors associated with autism, so they don't get diagnosed right away.

If your gut says something's wrong, I'd pursue it.

I would not trust an OT to make a diagnosis this subtle, nor would I rely on a school psychologist; I'd go to a developmental pediatrician or a neuropsychologist, preferably one with considerable experience in the more subtle end of the autism spectrum. (It took us a few years to get the dx, and we finally got help at the autism center of a children's hospital.)

If they rule everything out, then great, you just have to work on exposure to social settings and let maturity take care of it. If they find something, then you know what you're dealing with and can take positive steps.

Hang in there.

DeeDee

I cannot stand a lot of loud random noises. I also know when something is out of place even if it is just a gum wrapper on the floor that has moved. My FIL ( who is at least as smart as I am ) has had panic attacks in Malls to where he had to run to get outside. Neither of us got help with our emotional responses when we were younger, so its kind of hard coded now.

Mr W showed some issues with this early on. As a result of this, to head this off, we've deliberately taken Mr W to Malls and to Sports venues to get him used to lots of noise - starting out when there were not a lot of people to full on crowds. He had an issue or two early on, and we would leave, but he tolerates it just fine, now, and really enjoys hockey and football. He even sat through Dinosaur Live (he got overwhelmed once, so we left, then went back in..)

Mr W does have some funny things like wanting things in specific order or people to do certain things. We tolerate it if we do not already have plans. If it is a problem, we interrupt him and talk to him, take him outside, etc.

The big thing is for him to see his emotions coming, come up with a plan to manage it, then choose to re-engage. A little bit later he needs to learn how his reactions impact others around him. And then a bit later, how to use those feelings to perceive the same in others and then manage them.

Sensitivity is not a bug, it is a feature. Most people are rocks when it comes to perceiving the world around them. Being hyper-aware is just another gift to be valued and shaped.

Yes, I'm familiar with Music Together. I was a parent to the kid who was at the edge of the group and was saying after how he didn't like the way Jacob waved his scarf or the way Hannah moved the pillows, etc. Group classes with preschoolers weren't his thing. And, that's okay because as you get older that really only comes up as a parent or if you decide to be a preschool teacher. What would be the adult equivalent of Music Together? Cocktail party? Dancing? Plenty of people hate both of those.

What is obvious to me in retrospect is that what he wanted from a class and what I wanted were two different things. He wanted content. He was much happier attending lectures and concerts for adults. I wanted him to socialize. Thing is that it really was not a social occasion and he was overwhelmed with that experience. I learned later that group classes are actually not that helpful in making friends. http://www.amazon.com/Good-Friends-Are-Hard-Find/dp/096220367X

I'm not saying you should quit. I think there can be a lot of value in experiences like Music Together and it sounds like he has things to work on. What I would suggest is to not get ahead of yourself thinking this is a problem that means he needs a diagnosis. There are MANY kids who find this sort of class doesn't work that well for them as a preschooler. If you think he has sensory problems certainly getting OT is not a bad idea.

What I would suggest is more important... Help him have plenty of predictable routine and gentle opportunities to expand what he can tolerate. Work on helping him be more flexible and optimistic in his thinking bit by bit. Acknowledge his upset but don't dwell on it or revisit it. Before the situation talk through what to expect emphasizing that things may change. Try out giving him an assignment of something to look for. Could be something neutral - report back how many people were wearing red, or something positive, tell me the song you liked best. He can give you an assignment too. Whatever, just something to focus on and it will help guide your conversations in a more positive direction.

Oh and get this... guess what happened to my kid who was the at the edge of the room as the stressed nonparticipant in Music Together? He's in high school. His hobbies: music and dance.

Very well put. I love this.

I agree I would not trust an OT to make this diagnosis. That said though, I would also not trust most developmental pediatricians or neuropsychs to be able to differentiate between a kid who really is on the autism spectrum and a highly gifted, sensitive introvert who is immature in sensory development. There is unfortunately a lot of misdiagnosis of gifted kids.

Also would not go to an OT for a diagnosis since from what I understand (or what we were told by the school board OT) is an OT is not supposed to make any kind of medical diagnosis - they are supposed to assess and tell you what they find and then how to help it and a plan of acton but they are not supposed to give a medical diagnose...you are to take their assessment results to a doctor and they will diagnose along with their own assessments....not sure if this is totally true or not since I don't believe a word that comes out of the people we have had to deal with at the school level but - I would make sure to see a specialist if you are concerned

Thanks everyone.

Poor little Bear has been through so much testing at this point. He does have a definite diagnosis of SID and I've had three unrelated professionals tell me he isn't on the autistic spectrum (although I'm watching that one as he gets older). I've had so many places tell me: yes, there is something wrong and no, we can't help you right now. Even had the school district tell me that almost as soon as he hits school he'd get an IEP if he continues like he is, but that there is nothing they can do now since he isn't autistic or speech delayed or motor delayed or etc...

We actually don't go to Music Together to find friends. Friends are a very specific and rare commodity for Bear. He has one boy his age that he gets along with well and I think that is mainly because that boy has a nerve issues that makes him unable to walk. Due to that he's a lot more "in his head" and imaginative than most kids their age. He also doesn't do much in the way of sudden movements!

The reason we started the class was because we knew Bear would have to function in groups eventually and this was about the gentlest introduction we could come up with. Add to that the fact he is very musical I still think it's a good thing for him. He likes the classes for the most part while he's there, just the movement parts throw him. He's gotten SO much better since we started last year. We almost quit the first after the first session we did. He wouldn't take his shoes off or let go of me for the entire session.

It just hurts me that he has such a strong reaction to other people at such a young age. We've done everything we can to help him be comfortable with people.

Social anxiety is part of what I'm really concerned about since it runs in the family (me). You could have been describing Bear, MoN, although he isn't quite as bad at the playground if his brother is around.

Your son sounds a lot like my DS6. He still prefers to be at home with only us (he also has been telling us that since age 3 if not earlier), and he still wants me to stay with him at birthday parties. His anxiety didn't change much throughout preschool but it has gotten better in kindergarten. He had a hard time transitioning to full-day school, and his "school self" is very different from his "home self" as best as I can tell (he says little about school at home), and we think he will always have social anxiety (which also runs in our family). But it is clear when I see him with his K classmates that he is very comfortable with them and has matured a great deal socially this year. He will actually leave my side at a playground nowadays, even if unfamiliar children are there... and definitely no problem if his classmates are there.

So there is hope. DS6 has no particular diagnosis other than being HG/PG/whatever you want to call it. His preschool teachers wondered about sensory integration problems but his ped didn't think so; yet now that we have a second child we can see a big difference in their reactions to stimuli, so maybe he does have a touch of that. Still... he was very like your son at 3 and is now handling "big school" well, so we can hope you will see the same with your DS.

Oh -- and yes, definitely he is an introvert; that is no surprise at all though. We wouldn't know what to do with an extrovert around here. ha.

I feel for you: DS has very minor social troubles by comparison, and that's hard enough.

I just wonder, did you think about a Suzuki violin class? If you think he's likely to have long-term difficulty with groups and finding friends at school, I would suggest nudging him towards an orchestral instrument, or voice, in due course - school and university orchestras and choirs are IME a great way to spend time with people without a lot of the stuff that makes that stressful, and it can make all the difference.

Sounds like my ds, now 9. He has often done the 'edge of the crowd' thing, sometimes just doing his own thing, sometimes more like circling to observe the group. He loves to move around, for one thing. He doesn't care too much about the order of things, but children's loud talking/mild misbehavior makes him very very upset sometimes, anxious that everyone will get in trouble. Doesn't like loud places either.
A major difference is that my ds was always always wanted to be in a crowd of people and have lots of friends. Our neuropsych said that there are folks who want a lot of friends and to be at the center of things and they are at the center of things, then those folks who don't want the crowds/tons of friends, and tend to avoid it, and that works for them (possibly your ds' situation). My ds is a less than ideal mix of these - finds it hard to connect with people, really really wants to be at least 'mildly' popular.

If his mood generally seems happy it might not be anxiety so much as just desire for quiet and a few excellent friends, instead of many (loud) acquaintances...that is one characteristic of of adult gifties, fyi.

But you are very right to keep an eye on things. 3.2 may not be entirely too young for some group counseling focused on the ins and outs of playing with other kids; have you looked at social skills groups? (might be an option if you continue to be concerned )

Hugs to your and your ds!

Sadly, that is just how it is for many people of all ages.

Perhaps it is better to allow him to play with older children until he gets more emotionally mature. It's so hard to remember that a lot of our kids are much younger in their emotional maturity than their intellectual maturity.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Thank you everyone!

Wyldkat- I just want to say I'm sorry this is so hard. My DS has had some hard times socially too. (not the same situation but I can empathize) I hope you can find some time to give yourself a break that will help you. Hugs.

Wow, our children are so opposite. It is because of children like your son that I really worry about my DD who is loud, invasive, and all over the place and things like that. Sorry your little guy is overwhelmed in some situations (that is how I interpret it). I am still wondering what is going on with my daughter so I am of no help there, but I wanted to let you know that I am wishing you the best and the best for your little guy.

I know how he feels...I sometimes get upset when I'm around loud noises for extended periods of time, and I feel sad that the world treats him that way...I'm over at my GP's (grandparents), and they are boisterous and judgemental, so I feel like I want to be alone, just like he does...