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Thanks for the rec, acs. May I ask: what specifically is good about Raising Cain? Why did you like that book in particular? (You know me and my quest for more info... )




BTW, I think this is very smart. If they can't experiment and make mistakes and learn from the consequences now, when will they? As adults? The consequences are much greater then! I think you're a wise woman!

Ok, I like that book, but now you've actually made me go to my bookshelf and double check, I'm going to have to update my recommendation. If you're going to get one book, it should be the sequel "Speaking of Boys" by Thompson. It's way more practical.

According to this book, boys are annoying and smart-alecky for 5 reasons. 1) It's biological and related to primate dominance displays 2)It's part of adolescent separation from adults 3)immaturity--a reaction to fear 4)they learn it from watching adult males (athletes and movie stars and lawyers etc etc), 5)it gives them a sense of power and actually intimidates people and that's pretty exciting when you feel small and scared.

According to the book, one handles it by, "not rising to the bait, not lecturing or moralizing, not becoming frightened, and not patronizing." One should try to disarm it. Thompson gives examples of how he handles it too, but I don't want to type in the whole book.

I had DH read both these books and he says they got it right. Then I loaned them to my mother who raised 2 sons. She had them them in the bathroom for light reading. Several months later, one of my brothers who was visiting them asked me where I got those books. He said he'd really liked them and that after reading them, he felt like he had a much better understanding of his own childhood. So that's why I recommend them--because men I trust think they got it right.

Excellent! Thanks for taking the time to fill me in, acs! On the face of it, those reasons for attitude make sense to me. I appreciate your rec, and I'm looking up the book online at my local library now. Many thanks!

I grew up with 2 sisters, so I was not prepared for having 4 boys. Girls and boys definitely do things differently. Much more physical with boys, and it is sometimes hard for me not to jump in and make them stop wrestling--my DH says, "it's ok--no one is getting hurt".

Regarding DS 13, I don't think he understands how he sounds when answering me--his voice is changing, and when I call to him and he answers "WHAT?" in the nastiest voice, he looks surprised when I march up and say he's not allowed to speak to me like that.

He moves more slowly than an old lady; when we walk together, I get there way before him, and I'm much closer to the "old woman". He slouches in chairs with his legs spread out (I wonder how much he does this at school)--we got into such an argument because it looks disrespectful to sit like that (body language)--gangsterish. I repeatedly tell him he's not a gangster--far from it, but I know he's just trying to be "cool".

He does not watch a lot of TV, but listens to a lot of music, maybe some music videos on computer, YouTube. I think he gets the "cool" walk/stance from friends or kids at school. His school does have real-life gangsters. >70% low income, >%50 hispanic--a kid got run over (deliberately) in front of him on Friday. Maybe it's survival stance for skinny little white boy.

Raising Cain is a great book and I totally agree with you for allowing boys especially to have a time and a place to be tough. Our living room is practically a full time wresting arena.

I don't even think DS7 necessarily even knows the tone he is conveying when he regurgitates the teen speak from school. And he's slowly learning there is a difference between talking to his friends and joking around. And talking to a parent or another adult.

I have bad feelings about that book because a friend read it and has taken it to mean that correcting her children at all is stifling their "masculinity" and that it is ok for them to act awful because "boys will be boys". Also, her husband has taken this to mean any type of creative task assigned at school is trying to make a girl out of his son.

acs since you and kimck have recommended it, it makes me think that this is probably not the point the book was trying to make. I think boys can be masculine and "manly" without being completely rude and out of control. My kids want to wrestle all the time but the problem is someone always winds up hurt and crying. So I'd rather they'd not wrestle - but not because I care about that type of play, but because they don't seem to be able to handle it. I also love them doing creative type things at school and at home and don't think this will make them any less masculine. Anyway, maybe I should give this book a try and see what I get out of it.

I haven't read it in a while; I am just glancing through it now, but can't quite recreate the whole argument. Basically, I would say it is a complex and nuanced set of arguments that the authors make which explore boys from a lot of angles. I am guessing that your friend missed some of the key points.

The authors have been counseling boys and men for decades and you can real feel their love and appreciation for the boys they have known and masculinity in general. But they are very into appropriate limit setting, exploring feelings, and creating appropriate levels of safety. Actually, if your friend's husband had read the book carefully, I suspect he would accuse it of trying to make a girl out of his son because it's goal is to help keep boys' emotional lives healthy, so it can get a little touchy-feely!

I do think you would like it.

acs - I bet my friend's DH didn't read the book very well at all, probably just skimmed it at best. I'm all for touchy-feely and keeping my boys' emotional lives healthy so I will definitely give it a try. Thanks for the recommendation - because I sure would never have tried it otherwise!

Although the hormones don't hit earlier for our kids, I do think that there is a 'mental component' of adolescence that does hit 'precosiously.' Also, the kids who are 'OverExcitable' can do a lot with just a little wif of the hormones. At 9 my son did start changes that were almost inperceptable, but the behavior clicked in big time - turning to friends for applause instead of the parents being the most annoying. I chalk it up to a combination of poor fit educational environment, a mini-wif of hormones (enough to turn the skin of his upper lip darker than other skin, and an increase in the blonde hairs, and the smell) and a mental growth that mirrors what his 12 year old mental age peers are going through. Make sense?
Smiles,
Grinity

Yup. Makes sense to me. I think it's part-and-parcel of the generalized advancement of these kids. Especially the sponge-like ones who are around older kids, too. The combo in especially precocious and sensitive kids could really kick the attitude into high gear.

Besides, puberty is a process that can begin as young as 7 or 8-ish, particularly in girls, so it's not like 14yos have a monopoly on hormonal issues!

Oh, I so dread it in my younger one! He's a handful already. I can't imagine his excitabilities when hormones get going, too!

I may have to move out when he hits puberty...