Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums THINKING BIG About Gifted Education Non-success stories.

On the tail of success stories...

I think it is critical to hear both success stories and non-successes. Sometimes by hearing what other people did that didn't work and what they would have done differently, is as critical as hearing what finally did work. This isn't meant as just a gripe, but as a means to share learnings you had about a process that didn't work for you.

What hasn't worked, and what would you do differently? What did you learn from the process that you would want others to know.

Tammy

Well, I don't want to be a negative-type, because we really have had a good bit of help and understanding from most of the teachers and staff at our ds9's school. The main thing that I think I, myself, messed up on was waiting for others to tell me what I already had an inkling of - that ds is gifted.

He was lonely and misunderstood in 1st and 2nd grade but now that we understand more of what it means to be gifted, and in his case that he also is 2e, we are able to provide better opportunities for meeting and keeping friends.

What didn't work for us was the slew of parenting/discipline books I bought. DS7 is a world class debater, extremely logical, seemingly mature and very determined if he wants something (did I just describe all the kids on this forum?). Rewards, extra/removal of privileges don't work - he's contemptuous of them in any form.

What works is if I can "out-logic" him. Otherwise, it's a grim fight that I'm unwilling to engage in because no-one wins. We just had a bout regarding handwriting re-writes from school - luckily he solved it by deciding that he'd do it right the first time. Fortunately too - he loves academic challenges, and he models himself after DH. I just have to keep out-thinking him calmly when he gets into a twist. I was only half-joking with DH that bringing up our son is a sure way to keep Alzheimer's at bay!

Ours is a sort of mixed result.

Our local school district has had a gifted magnet for elementary school students for several years. We explored the option, but they were unwilling to make accommodations for Girlchild's other exceptionality. (Yes, I know legally they have to, but I wasn't terribly motivated to make her a test case for bucking the system.)

This year they opened a gifted middle school. We were assured that they were making an effort to embrace the quirky wonderfulness of a wide range of gifted middle schoolers, and tried it out. Girlchild lasted six weeks (the last two with daily panic attacks); Boychild is finishing the year but will be homeschooling again this summer.

I'm frustrated by the confusion this district has between "gifted" and "three hours of homework a night". Especially when you get into the higher ranges of giftedness, fifty identical algebra problems really isn't necessary to drive home the point. Nor is willingness to do endless reams of handouts a hallmark. Neither, in many cases, are stellar executive functioning skills. These are kids who-- even if they do the busywork-- forget it in the bassoon case or leave their thumb drive in the Lego box. Or they get in trouble for using the margins to create original character manga, or for arguing the validity of the social studies questions they were supposed to answer.

Not that I think this is appropriate behavior on the kids' part, either. But it seems like the system is set up to encourage missteps and acting out, and squash the traits that make these kids gifted in the first place.

The school board is more than happy to create programs and channels and wonderful shiny toys for kids in the brighter-than-the-average-bear range. But for kids who don't fit in the box precisely because of their giftedness? Fuggedaboudit.

And even that would be tolerable if they'd just go ahead and call it "pre-IB", rather than "gifted ed".

Anyway, what I take away from all this is that one-size-fits-all generally doesn't, and that not everything labeled "for gifted children" really is. Something I think we tend to forget in our excitement at finding a plan that claims it will work. For some kids, it does. Some kids are all about the competition and the goal of valedictorian, even if it means three hours of handouts. And some...are exceptions even among exceptions.

You certainly described my son to a T. I've always said that he was a nihilist because he doesn't care what I take away or give to him. He's going to do whatever it takes to do what he wants to do.

Three words

All day kindergarten.

/cry

We have to deal with all day K next year

I have learned to be very careful about what ideas to put in his head..... such as "the consequences are not worth it"

He learned about averaging in 4th grade and he did not like his 4th grade teacher. At the begining of the 6th/6-week period he decided he was not going to complete another assignment until his teacher apologized to him for embarrasing him in front of the class about loosing his papers again. He was confined to his room that was down to just a mattress. Stubborn teacher won't apologize either. By the 3rd week, I asked him if he wanted to fail and repeat 4th grade again. He said, "I made excellent grades the first 5. If I get a 0.... I still PASS."

I moved and changed to a much better school district which has contributed greatly to keeping him challenged and exceling past my original beliefs. The new district was able to inspire him rather than get mixed up in a power struggle.

It was a bad fit for my son but if it's good program it may not be a bad fit for our DC. I did the all day because I didn't like the half day choices. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered either ay.

(Raises hand and waves it wildly) Oh yes....here to here to LOL. She Does NOT care at all. It is the most difficult thing LOL.

Thank you for the stories. It is good to hear good and bad. It helps to prepare LOL

After two years in schools with gifted education ( differentiation and enrichment for the first school, which was code for "we do nothing", and "self - contained" - don't you love that label?... for the second year) we finally found a wonderful performing arts charter school where our son is thriving. No matter what the label that gets stuck on your child or how good the program is touted to you as parents, nothing matters unless the school puts your child's success at a premium, doesn't treat your child like a number, respects you as parents who know your child better than anyone (yes, Mr. Psychologist, I DO see my child differently than other people....I'm his mother!) AND if the schools don't take FAPE (free and appropriate public school education) seriously as in the letter of the law, it won't matter where your child goes to school. Gifted education was not the answer everyone starting from 4th grade at Montessori proclaimed it to be. Only you as parents will know the right fit. Or, as Joni Mitchell once sang, "people will tell you where they've been, they'll tell you where to go, but till you get there yourself....you'll never really know".

There are plenty of good schools that don't work for some good kids. Glad you found a school that works for your son Sonora!

Grinity

With both my dd's I wished I would have skipped kindergarten alltogether and just had each go directly to 1st grade, sort of did that with my older one by putting her in K halfway through the year.

Like many people, our primary "nonsuccess" was with trying a differentiated program for DS's first semester of kindergarten.
We truly believe that acceleration would also have been a nonsuccess, though, and here's why....

Background: In the first week of K, the school asked to give him placement tests and evaluated him at 3rd grade LA/spelling, 4th grade reading, and 2nd grade math. However, he has a summer birthday and was still "5" for handwriting and gross motor. (They also made a big deal about the fact that he didn't know "phonics" because he was a whole-language reader. That was a laugh since he tested at grade 8.9 in national placement ranking when he took a standardized reading comp. test in May.)
Anyhow, the principal suggested we place him in a 1st/2nd grade "combo" class for accelerated learners.

HOWEVER, when I spoke with the 1st/2nd teacher, she told me that she could not move him into other classes for his LA/reading groups because it was logistically too difficult. She said to do this and keep him from missing other subjects, she would have to line her schedule up perfectly with both the 3rd and 4th grade teachers, and there were too many variables that came up to make that work. Even at the start of his K year, beginning 2nd grade work was not going to keep him challenged where he was at.

On the other side, too, she made a point of the fact that his handwriting was still in early-sentence mode, and he was going to get slowed down compared to the rest of the class who could write so much more clearly/faster/more at a time. This was actually true at that point in time, 'though he's caught up to the average 3rd grader in handwriting now that he's 6.

Since we knew this wasn't the right fit, we decided to let him stay in kindergarten while we tried other options. They tried lots of differentiation, but it was far too little and not worth the extra chaos. Luckily for us, we discovered homeschooling, and are now with a fabulous charter who fully supports where he's at. His lowest curriculum is 2.5 grade levels ahead, his highest is middle school, and yet he can participate in activities with other children his age if he wants. We can also keep him enrolled as a 1st grader on paper, which will hopefully allow us to stay with this charter all the way through "8th grade" even though he'll likely finish high school curriculum by then.


I read so many wonderful acceleration stories, yet I have so many questions. I would have to guess that most other YS kids are like mine and don't get nearly enough even by 1 or 2 grades of acceleration. Some schools make pullouts work, but I wonder how they get around the issues our teacher described. Plus, even "new" subjects seem so basic at grade level. (For ex, our certified teacher just pulled out the regular school's geography materials for grades 2-3, and quickly discarded them as too basic for DS, but most people wouldn't do a pullout 3 grade levels higher for geography!) Do the accelerated kids find that some topics are meeting their needs but others just won't be able to? I'm always very supportive of acceleration and like to learn more because we know that we'll have to do that too if we reintegrate again some day.

My DD is not nearly as accelerated (or in need of acceleration) as your son, and we're only a week into the grade skip (1st to 3rd), but it seems like her asynchronicity has helped her find a balance early in the year, but if she has a growth spurt in one of the lagging areas, it makes the end of the year harder.

So for K, she was ideally placed in K - she couldn't read on entry, was young for grade and not socially mature compared to her older classmates, and did not have great gross motor skills. Maybe slightly ahead in math and fine motor, but not so much that she disenjoyed K. She had a huge growth spurt in reading, a slightly smaller one in maturity, and ended K enough ahead that we contemplated acceleration, but decided she didn't need it.

For first, she had an OK placement at the beginning of the year, but had a huge growth spurt in math, gross motor, and maturity, and really started complaining about being bored. Her 1st grade teacher asked us if we thought her placement in first had been a mistake, and it totally wasn't - she needed that year. But really, she mostly needed the first 4-6 months of it.

So far, third seems to be OK. She anticipated being behind in math, but they're starting with such basic review, and she catches on so fast, that I think she's going to start and stay towards the top. Her reading has historically been above her math, but wasn't so much an interest last year - if she has a big reading spurt this year, I could see her being way ahead in reading, although she's high average now. Her fine motor is good enough to keep up with the increased writing load and introduction to cursive. But her writing isn't fast enough that she finishes her work early, so that's the lagging area that's keeping school interesting for her at the moment.

Second would have been a bad placement for her. And fourth would have been an impossible placement for her. Although, having seen how third is starting, I think she might have been able to rise to the occasion and do the work in a 4th grade class, with sufficient support and motivation.

I read so many wonderful acceleration stories, yet I have so many questions. I would have to guess that most other YS kids are like mine and don't get nearly enough even by 1 or 2 grades of acceleration. Some schools make pullouts work, but I wonder how they get around the issues our teacher described. Plus, even "new" subjects seem so basic at grade level.

Yes! I would totally agree with this. DS skipped 1 grade but could easily be skipped again but I don't want to 1) upset other child in that grade 2) make him soo much younger than the others in his public school. I know we need to do something though. He complains about homework because he already learned it in class, etc. His grades are great but he never has to study. It sounds like you found a great fit for your DS, he is very fortunate to have a great program!

As someone who skipped a couple of grades and didn't have to homework, I had the worst study habits and it really caught up with me in college. I could cram for a test and do well but I didn't really learn anything. It was so goal oriented.

Since my DD is small for her age and already one of the youngest in her class, I am using the CTY as a pull out for her math in grade 1.

Every time I hear about girls doing OK socially after a skip, it seems they are tall for their age and or, their birthdays were not so much past the cut-off. DD is already a head shorter than her peer classmates.

I am finding that using a lot of horizontal diversification with Mandarin, science at the museum, sports and pull outs on the math and her teacher lets her read what she wants, that it works for now. But DD is only just 6.

Ren

FWIW, my DD has a May 31 birthday (September 1 cutoff). She was not the youngest in her class before the skip, but was at the young end. Many of her 3rd grade classmates are 18 months older than she is.

She's also about 50th percentile height-for-age. She was very concerned about being the shortest kid in the older grade, but most kids are slowing down some in growth as they hit 8 and 9, so you don't have to be a particularly tall 7yo to avoid being shorter than the smallest 8yo. If your DD is already significantly shorter than her age-mates, she's obviously going to be significantly shorter than kids a year older, but it won't necessarily be as big a difference as you think.

DD doesn't even come up to the shoulder of her (very, very tall-for-age) best friend. She's been just as socially involved (in terms of party invitations and playdates) as a 3rd grader as she was as a 1st grader, and I like her friends better this year than I did last. Her first-grade friends tended to be low-average performers in school. Her third-grade friends are much smarter - they recognize DD as being smart, but not so smart that they feel outclassed, if that makes sense.

I had my concerns at the beginning of the year, but the skip has been a good social move, as well as a good academic move. I'm sure that's not always the case, but I thought it might be helpful for you to hear an anecdote from the other side.

My DD9 was early-entranced into K with an early September birthday, so she was the youngest in her class. Still, at the 75th percentile for height, she was on the slightly high end of average. Then, she skipped a grade, so she is by far the youngest in her class. Sure, there are kids a lot taller than her, espcially now that she's in 5th grade and some of the girls have started to hit their growth spurts, but there are also several girls, two years older, who are the same size or smaller. With puberty beginning anywhere within a several year range, she may yet start growing at the same time as some of her older classmates (her brother started growing quite early). And, even if she doesn't grow early, in a couple years she'll still wind up as one of the tallest in her grade. To me, it is totally worth it to have her be on the shorter end for a few years so that she can have so many of her other needs -- both academic and social -- met. Besides, none of the parents of these classmates of hers who are short ever thought of holding them back because of that. Sure, it happens for boys some, but rarely for girls. So, while YMMV, height has been a complete non-issue for us.

Too, I should add, my DD has been completely integrated into the social groups of her new grade. She is, it turns out, one of the most popular girls in her grade, with everybody wanting to hang out with her and invite her to parties. She still has most of her friends from the grade before the skip, but she truly fits in much better with the kids in her current grade. She used to be shy, I think because she felt like she had to hide her abilities and her true self, but not anymore! Also, parents sometimes worry about what being smaller will mean for sports. Now, my DD is not likely to end up a professional or olympic athlete, but she is currently on a 5th/6th grade volleyball team and totally holding her own as a player.

I just wish she had a peer group, like I did, for the acceleration or grade skip. She is in the 15th percentile for height, as of her early Sept physical. So she is generally a foot shorter than kids in the second grade. She has some friends in the second grade that have birthdays around the same time, so they are just a year older and they are so much bigger. I am not worried so much in the early grades, it is more fitting in those beginning hormonal ages in middle school and how much she would feel the need to fit in.

I was reading about the influence a parent has on a child and peer pressure is much more influential on the scale, according to some study. I know that is average and depends on the child. But since we are seeing so many stories about bullying and suicide, I do not want to underestimate the peer pressure on a child that skips grades alone.

Right now the pace is working with the accelerated math.

Ren

all I know is NOTHING has worked for DD#1 and I'm just so sad. Where do you all live that your public (?) school teachers are actually suggesting your kids be accelerated or are even open to it? And are all your kids work producers? Mine REFUSES to do things, especially writing...it's been an issue since Kindergarden (she's in 3rd now) and NO ONE has offered a single solution that actually works. Part of me is secretly pleased that she has everyone jumping all around, but since I'm one of those people, I am utterly EXHAUSTED! School is totally ruining my ability to appreciate my wonderful, serious, creative, interesting little person!
I am getting ready to go to the mat with the school because I feel she would be better off in our less than 500 kids K-12 magnet (global citizenship) but I feel like they are not really willing to explore "special treatment" for my kid...that they would rather tell me to take her to one of the schools in our district that does have GATE classes...

You what I DO know doesn't work? WAITING. and that's why I'm trying to get my 4.5 yo in kinder early...that's going to be a real fun battle, I'm sure

Well, both my mother (who is undoubtedly gifted, but was educated before there was such a thing as gifted education) and my gifted DH were accelerated.

Both of them wish they were not, despite succeeding academically.

My DH was both intellectually and athletically gifted. Being the smallest and youngest boy in his class was frustrating for the athlete in him and he never really got over that.

My mother was always ahead of her older peers academically, but lacked confidence because she had less social maturity than her classmates. This was the root of a lifelong struggle with anxiety and depression.

I don't know what the better alternative would have been for either of them and neither of them were dealing with the current system ... but acceleration was not a great solution in either case.

Since I accelerated and was gifted athletically, I found my athletic interests outside of the school system, I figure skated competitively. Then grade level doesn't affect you.

And I did cheerleading, so socially I could be accepted easily, even though I was younger. There are options.

My mother's siblings earned hard PHDs. My mom did not get anything past a BS.

She was easily the smartest of the bunch as she helped them with their homework in HS and college though she was the youngest. She could read the book and then solve the problems.

I have a number of short stories she wrote when in 2d-6th grade. The early ones were 20 pages long with the later ones 40 pages. They are very well done. About half are about the same character, a young girl who wants to be included in adult things.

She came of age in the 40s and 50s when young girls did not do sports nor were they academically encouraged.

At her funeral, a number of HS and work friends showed up.

I learned that she could hit home runs in grade school and middle school playing baseball with the boys teams. There is a stunning photo in a yearbook of her as a sophomore sitting on a piano singing. She was very pretty, slim, and tall. She completed algebra II, the highest math course in her HS, as a sophomore. I also found out that she spent most of her time in HS sitting in the back reading. I also found out that her dad was physically abusive especially to her.

And she never developed the discipline to focus on her writing, though she rose quite high in the companies she was in. A boss from work told me she could spot fraud by talking to people or eyeballing detailed financials.

Looking back, she probably had no outlets for her talents most of her life. And more valued for her looks, cut off from sports in late middle school, and with a limited academic program in HS, she found barriers everywhere that she had real growth potential.

I had some great chats with family yesterday at a birthday party; my brother-in-law (quite a smarty himself) was commenting that this is a great time to grow up a girl. I said I didn't think there was a better time (admitting in my head, yes there are still barriers).
I took 6 girl nieces and my daughter to the nearby excellent air and space museum and for the big group photo, asked them to say 'FUTURE ENGINEER!'. They really enjoyed that one; each and everyone of them is smart and most are obviously gifted. All are interested in science, math and just plain old building things. We had a blast.
My mother's story is similar to Austin's, she was excellent at everything she got a chance to do, but those options were limited.

To answer cmac's question, we are not in a place where whole grade acceleration is encouraged at all, but as you get up in higher grades subject accel. becomes an option. Imo, that is great for a moderately gifted child but I have a kid who needs more math in K already, so we are working on differentiating for that specifically, but is has been a struggle. More later as I have to run.

What didn't work?

Not accelerating DD because she was small (10th percentile height in K). Although in my defense, I'd read that seeing the age group your child is drawn to is a good way to determine their social level. She played "down". Although now I know that was because in her multi-age classroom the creative, musical children were younger. Now, in HS, she makes friends with the upper classmen faster than her own grade level.

Also, it didn't work to trust the public school to understand that even a high achieving child can have a learning disability.

My DS7 is NOT a work producer . . . can barely write a sentence, which is a big part of why we didn't accelerate him at his teachers suggestion.

And frankly, I think his teacher suggested the grade skip b/c she didn't want to be bothered to do the extra things he would need for in-class multi-subject acceleration. So it's not that she understands DS so well, it's just that she didn't want to deal with a pushy mom. You know, every mom thinks their kid is a genius.

We got the principal on our side, and ultimately the result is a slightly higher book for reading group, and DS is basically self-educating in math and science. Seriously, the teacher can't even be bothered to look at the computer he's working on during math class to see what it has him doing.

So maybe the answer is to find a lazy teacher.

In terms of writing- is it his handwriting? He doesn't like writing? Maybe you can try to home once a week to have him write 3 brief sentences about something fun.
We are doing Handwriting Without Tears for my first grader- his handwriting has gotten alot better. I think he just needed more practice.

Yeah, we did that. We tried him typing too. We've done O.T. We're in the midst of an evaluation now for L.D.

My DS's school suggested a grade skip simply because they had nothing else for him - his 1st grade teacher said he had nothing to teach him - even that wasn't really enough. The second grade teacher was very excited to do something for an advanced kid until she realized that he was way ahead of her kids too and we were pushing her to differentiate for DS.

I don't think anyone on this board has had a situation where the schools have just bent over backwards to provide our DCs with the best possible accomodations, but I have been at my DS's school since the 1st week of K when I realized that he already knew everything she said she was going to teach him that year. Over a period of time, I built a relationship with people inside and outside of the school to get to my least worse option (this is a frequent term here), then I applied to a different district's HG program and we are still working with the school. So, while success might not really happen, I think you can get to a point where it is not as bad as it once was. I think you are well on your way

Did I just say DS can barely write a sentence?

He sat down this afternoon and hand-wrote a full page, single-spaced, about ocean habitats, while I was out of the room.

You know how you take your car to the mechanic, and it stops making that noise? I'm taking my kid for a psych eval for dysgraphia, and he chose this week to learn to write.

Sheesh.

LOL!!!

Today's SST (student study team) meeting with myself, the teacher, counselor and school psychologist...that was an exercise in futility and not successful at all, as far as I can tell. Trying to get everyone else to understand and stretch their minds a little...that's not working either...

DS#1 is 9. What didn't work for him was radical acceleration or Montessori school.

We tried a grade skip and then another grade skip (so that he was 2 years above grade level) at the school's suggestion. The work was helpful, but he asked to go back to his grade level because he missed his friends. He also didn't have quite the executive function or organizational skills to manage the work. He could do all of it with direction, but couldn't manage a project quite the way an older kid could. He just wasn't mature enough yet.

Montessori also didn't work. He blew through the classroom materials too quickly and they had no idea how to differentiate for a kid with some extreme gifts. He was bored.

What is currently working is in-class differentiation. He is in a class with his age cohort and his teacher gives him differentiated materials to work on. He's working 3 grades above his current grade in several subjects. The expectations for time management and organization are age appropriate, though, which is much less frustrating for him.

1) Parochial school. Religious beliefs notwithstanding, I'm referring to the old tactic of teaching by humiliation.

In first grade I read at about a sixth-grade level, and would often complain of the "see Spot run"-style primary readers as being too boring. The teachers' response was to put me in a third-grade classroom... where I did fine until they made me read from the board.

IN CURSIVE.

And these weren't even nuns. By contrast to the civilian "educators," the nuns were, well... quite holy. Books aren't written in cursive, of course. I broke down in the middle of class because I couldn't read what was on the board. I probably could've if it were in standard print, because the issue wasn't reading comprehension, it was just that, well, I hadn't learned cursive yet. Needless to say, the third-grade kids all laughed.

The third-grade teacher called downstairs for the first-grade teacher, who came upstairs, grabbed me by the ear and dragged me two flights of stairs (by the ear), and upon arrival at the first-grade class "where I belonged," shoved me in the room and had me stand at the front of the classroom, tearful and humiliated. Then she told all the girls to look up at the front of the room for a minute. Guess what: the third-grade kids and their teacher showed up too. To "teach me a lesson about pride," which she wrote in big words on the blackboard behind me.

I was the poster child for an "important lesson" in why pride and knowledge are against the teachings of God. I wasn't "haughty" at all; just bored literally to tears and frustrated by the fact that there weren't any chapter books. A non-denominational private or charter school might have been a better option, but the overly rigid parochial environment where "knowledge is a sin" (especially because it was an all-girl school) and independence tantamount to demonic possession was NOT a good match at all.

2) Public school and the "self-contained" classroom (I don't like that term either), without regard for students' individual issues. As a shy, highly intelligent but emotionally insecure and high-anxiety teenager (really, what teenager isn't high-anxiety?) I was, for part of ninth grade, in a "self-contained" class with some seriously troubled and/or disabled kids: one with Down syndrome, another with a double whammy of disadvantages (deaf and of non-English speaking parents), a few who'd moved in from the inner city and were in here instead of juvenile hall for gang involvement, and a girl of about 15 or so who dropped out because she was pregnant. I was on the way other end of the educational spectrum while they were, unfortunately, still starting out. But the fact that middle-of-the-road was all the school system was willing to accommodate -- the slapped-together NCLB template curriculum -- meant that any outliers were in what the faculty often referred to (and disparagingly, I might add) as "the zoo," "the experimental monkey lab" or "the point of no return."

They were quite a cast of characters, and I have to say, better people as people than the stuck-up cheerleaders or jocks of the "mainstream," but it really wasn't a good match for me (obviously), and though I was actually disappointed to leave (and a little scared), I really didn't belong there. I did get to hang out there from time to time though, during study hall when I'd help out the teachers' aides and para-professionals (or if the cafeteria got too lonely and overwhelming).

Basically, though, it was like sticking Matilda in with the "Dangerous Minds."