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    #68911 - 02/15/10 11:24 AM Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT
    Mark D. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/31/69
    Posts: 271
    The following is a synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech, "Thinking Big About Gifted Education", presented at the Texas Association for the Gifted & Talented (TAGT) Conference, Dec. 3, 2009 in Houston.

    On Dec. 3, 2009, Jan Davidson presented the keynote address at the Texas Association for Gifted and Talented (TAGT) Conference in Houston. Her presentation, titled “Thinking Big About Gifted Education,” challenged the audience to think in different terms about how our country educates its youth.

    Jan spoke enthusiastically about how matching the curriculum to the student in each subject lets them soar in areas where they are strong and receive additional support where they need help. She showed a short video of interviews with students where they discussed the boredom, depression and lack of drive they experience when they are under-challenged. She then gave examples of 14-17 year olds who have performed graduate-level work because they were matched to appropriately challenging curriculum and found mentors who helped them excel. She went on to discuss The Davidson Academy of Nevada, a free public school for profoundly gifted pupils. At The Davidson Academy (www.DavidsonAcademy.unr.edu) the curriculum is matched to the student and the students thrive in this environment.

    A recent report by McKinsey & Company, http://www.mckinsey.com/App_Media/Images..._gap_report.pdf, states that current education gaps impose the economic equivalent of a permanent national recession, one much larger than the current recession. It also said that in 2008 our economy would have gained an additional $2 trillion if our high school graduates had attained the average skills of their peers in countries such as Canada, Finland and South Korea. Jan challenged the audience to think in different terms, to imagine the possibilities of matching the curriculum to the student at their schools. She recognized this will be a lot of work upfront, but it will save time in the long-run because you can teach to students’ zone of proximal development and discipline issues decrease.

    She concluded with a video showing the positive results of when students are appropriately challenged and encouraged the audience to “think in different terms for the sake of our students and the sake of our nation. The nation is hinging its future on us.”

    Your thoughts? Change starts with one person, one school, one district. What steps do you think we need to take to “think in different terms” and to match the curriculum to all students?

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    #68916 - 02/15/10 01:23 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    quaz Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/14/08
    Posts: 37
    What is the difference between this and just the advocation that gifted parents seem to have to do again and again? How is this in different terms to anything that folks with gifted kids have been trying to do for years?

    I mean, don't many of us as parents, over and over again stress the need for matching the student to a subject level they need to be at? Don't many of us run into the same walls again and again on this?

    I don't see this about being new and different, but the same fight we've been having for years.

    Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems to be preaching to the choir, and many of us do not make headway in our school districts on this.

    Tammy

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    #68926 - 02/15/10 03:47 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: quaz]
    matmum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/06/09
    Posts: 195
    Loc: Australia
    Surely cost must play a part in the overall equation. By no means are private schools the be all and end all but a common thread through a lot of the posts is the inability for parents to continue in something approaching a satisfactory education due to the cost. Of course there are many parents that have found the private system unsatisfactory but how many have found it otherwise and simply couldn't afford it?

    This could also be a factor in the unsuccessful stories thread.

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    #68954 - 02/16/10 04:11 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: matmum]
    paynted28 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/06/10
    Posts: 33
    i think working against the schools will get us no where. we have to find funding and make people who have pull more aware of the situation. let's face it....most people with political power who could change our public school systems probably aren't able to figure it out so to speak. and most teachers i have known just want to get the basics done and get out. many people involved with public schools don't want change unless it makes their job easier. it sounds silly, but we need celebrity support. if you think about it many actors, scientist, artist etc. are probably somewhat gifted and can at least imagine if not relate to the fact that gifted children are held back in our society by either public schools or the inability to pay for private educations. we need to find a way to not only show the struggle of most gifted students but also highlight why these children could potentially make a sizable difference in society for the better if their thirst for accelerated learning was nurtured rather than prohibited.

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    #68957 - 02/16/10 05:10 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: paynted28]
    traceyqns Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/18/09
    Posts: 460
    We need to get on Oprah already before she is retired. I mean seriously we need some big media attention on this issue. I am so tired and too drained keep fighting and changing schools.

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    #70028 - 02/27/10 08:10 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: traceyqns]
    bk1 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/02/07
    Posts: 139
    I think what would work for gifted kids would work for all kids --Every child deserves material in their zone of proximal development. By showing how every child could benefit from this individualized approach, and getting it implemented, we would gain popular support for individualized teaching. Once adopted on a large scale, all kids, including and most especially gifted kids, would benefit.

    We need to think about the impediments that keep America from individualizing teaching. One impediment is the current version of NCLB, with its emphasis on annual yearly progress and measurement only on achieving grade-level proficiency, and acceptance of narrowly focused tests that allow schools to drill key test questions and drop social studies, music, art, and science to focus more on test prep.

    One way to change this would be to make schools accountable for teaching one year's worth of appropriately-paced and appropriately leveled material, varying by child.

    Perhaps we could start by having states replace their NCLB state tests that measure only proficiency in the grade level of the child being tested. From what I understand, a test like MAP can show a child's current achievement level, instead of just whether the child is proficient at grade level. The school could then place the child in the appropriate grade by subject area. At the end of the year, the school would be held accountable if the fourth grader doing 8th grade math is not ready for (at least) ninth grade math the following year. They could still also be evaluated on how many kids are proficient at grade level as well.

    Right now, the tests only judge proficiency at grade level. My older child probably would have passed the fifth grade proficiency exam years ago, but instead, each year all he got to show was that he was proficient at first grade skills, proficient at 2nd grade skills, etc. As long as he showed as proficient, no one really cared that he'd learned next to nothing all year in class and that almost all his learning was done outside of school.

    My younger child reads, but his pre-K teachers don't seem to know it. I don't think they're evaluating that in class, and I don't think they've ever been trained to check for anything beyond grade level. He hates going to pre-K, and I can imagine that everything other than playtime is torture for him. I can only imagine what next year will be like, when kindergarten, the first academic year in our state, begins to spend even more time on things he already knows.

    My observation of local gifted classes is kids who tested well move in lock-step through a curriculum, at a slightly faster pace, with slightly more depth. It is still very frustrating to a PG child.


    Another impediment to the individualized teaching approach is our traditional elementary school, which strictly segregates by age, requiring kids falling within the one-year age group to stay with each other all day, whether for reading, math, science or social studeies. We could be less strict about starting ages and we could evaluate kids for grade placement based on academic readiness. No one-time test, but guided evaluations from pre-school or pre-K teachers based on what we know about how gifted kids may manifest in class and how to tease out how ready a child is.

    We need much more fluid grouping and regrouping throughout the elementary school day, across grade levels and changing up by curriculum segment. Imagine an elementary school where all math classes occurred at the same time, and kids changed rooms or tables to join group A, B, C, D... X, Y, Z, with other kids who were ready to learn the same things they were ready for. We need to have plans in place for kids to have access to their curriculum level even if it's at a middle school, high school, or college. It seems like we should be able to take greater advantage of internet, interactive classes. Perhaps DOE could fund them!

    Once at middle school, kids should take readiness tests for placement in each course they take, instead of following lock-step through the curriculum.

    Teachers and school leaders lack training on this method of teaching. States should mandate gifted education training and training on individualizing instruction for all teachers. Principals should get training on reading and understanding various testing measures, including measures of giftedness (so they could better understand a child's needs) and statistical skills that could be used to analyze all these NCLB tests. They did need training on how to re-organize their school days and staff to allow flexible appropriate grouping based on readiness, not age.

    When America allows individualized education for all, gifted education won't be something different or special. It won't require hours of parent advocacy and fights with teachers and administrators. It won't cause teasing or jealousy from other kids or parents. It will just be the individualized education that a gifted kid gets.

    Thank you, Jan, for talking about the issue and for all you have done to help highly gifted kids. I am so grateful!

    bk1
    mom to DYS 11

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    #70076 - 03/01/10 04:37 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: bk1]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Well said, bk1.

    I would also ask - who accredits the programs that educates teachers? If we could convince that body that methods that are good for gifted kids are good and important for everyone, then they could set a reasonable amount of training in this important area.
    ...
    Answered my own question - perhaps correctly:
    http://www.ncate.org/

    I found http://www.ncate.org/documents/standards/NCATE%20Standards%202008.pdf
    page 59
    outlines the Standards of 'Educatior of Gifted Children' and it's lovely, but my next step is to see what the standards for K-8 educators who aren't specifically trained in Gifted, but have gifted children in their classroom year after year.

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity

    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #70144 - 03/01/10 05:48 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: bk1]
    EastnWest Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/12/08
    Posts: 302
    Originally Posted By: bk1
    I think what would work for gifted kids would work for all kids --Every child deserves material in their zone of proximal development. By showing how every child could benefit from this individualized approach, and getting it implemented, we would gain popular support for individualized teaching. Once adopted on a large scale, all kids, including and most especially gifted kids, would benefit.

    Originally Posted By: traceyqns

    We need to get on Oprah already before she is retired. I mean seriously we need some big media attention on this issue.

    I agree with paynted28, how do you influence the people with political power? A combination of "big media attention"; making it about meeting all childrens needs and emphasizing the economic impact.

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    #73899 - 04/13/10 12:44 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: EastnWest]
    alexfamtx Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 08/03/09
    Posts: 43
    BK1 nicely said. That age thing is a huge factor. Both teachers and administrators are terrified to move children up because of the age difference. They are afraid of the social and emotional implications that could arise from these different ages interacting together.

    When my ds went to public school their where Kindergartners and 2nd graders on the play ground at the same time. I was visiting with my son that day and he wanted to play with the 2nd graders. The Vice principal came over and told my son that he was to young to play with the 2nd graders even through they had already accepted him and he was having a blast. He then started playing by himself b/c he couldn't relate to the other K's.

    When teachers and adults start telling children not to associate with kids younger or older then themselves that is what leads children not wanting to socialize with kids beside their ages and when they have to they don't know how and this is what causes the problems that teachers and administrators are afraid of. But if it was the norm for a 5 year old to be with 8 year olds then there wouldn't be any problems.

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    #73903 - 04/13/10 01:06 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: alexfamtx]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Originally Posted By: alexfamtx
    When teachers and adults start telling children not to associate with kids younger or older then themselves that is what leads children not wanting to socialize with kids beside their ages and when they have to they don't know how and this is what causes the problems that teachers and administrators are afraid of. But if it was the norm for a 5 year old to be with 8 year olds then there wouldn't be any problems.


    I think that the adults in the school environment encourage kids to identify themselves by their Grade. It reminds me of buying eggs - do I want 'Grade A' eggs? I've seen teachers who inspire their students by harping on all the privaleges the children will get as they advance through the 'Grades.' Talk about seeing our children as 'the product!'

    Sing it AlexFamTx!
    Grinity
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #77239 - 06/01/10 11:46 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Grinity]
    TMI Grandma Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/21/10
    Posts: 46
    In order to change public opinion by sharing new ideas or information that alot of people never hear about, we need a movie. Possibly a weekly series. I wonder what other people think of this as possibly a way to bring about changes in public opinion.

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    #77793 - 06/09/10 10:02 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Grinity]
    PoppaRex Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 06/09/10
    Posts: 44
    What a great topic!

    Hi all. I am new and i suspect I have a gifted son (10). I am just begining the whole process of "what do I do now?" but I have always thought that the public school systems were a failure. There's a long story but I am personnally a ghost of "gifted programs" past. Today i feel that "No student left behind" (NCLB) is really "No student forges ahead", and perhaps much of that is due to being from Massachusetts (I'll wait for the "BOO"s to die down).

    I don't remember exactly when i first heard of the promises of individualized learning, maybe it was with 'The Jetsons' and seeing little Elroy with his robotic computer of a teacher. I always looked forward to the day when i could advance at my own pace instead of looking out the window or drawing pictures in class. Never happened, and i pretty much became disgusted with all schools. I see the same starting with my 10 year old.


    I think bk1 is exactly on the right path with the comment that the new process should work for all students. As a matter of fact it is critical. The moment that the perception is that some students are getting special attention the game is lost. That's what NCLB was all about.

    I have chatted in education forums (within Mass.) and the concensus seemed to be among educators that it would be impossible to administer to the needs of individual curriculum, that it would be a nightmare for teachers and administrator alike. I think that's due to the thinking that it would be something along the lines of what today's programs are like. Instead, i think it HAS to be radically different.

    I don't have a clear idea of what it would be, as i am just starting on this search. This forum sounds like a good place to start bouncing ideas around. Hopefully this becomes an active forum!

    Rob

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    #77799 - 06/09/10 11:36 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: PoppaRex]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Originally Posted By: PoppaRex
    I don't have a clear idea of what it would be, as i am just starting on this search. This forum sounds like a good place to start bouncing ideas around. Hopefully this becomes an active forum!

    Rob


    Welcome Rob - Go ahead and do an introduction post on the Parenting and Advocacy Forum. Introduce us to your 10 year old, and what kinds of resources you've tried to get into them, and what you've read so far. It's amazing how terrible school looks when it doesn't meet your needs, but watching as my son progressed through school I realized that there is so much to love about our current school systems, and the people in them - they just didn't come anywhere near meeting my individual needs.

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #77872 - 06/10/10 12:56 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Grinity]
    onthegomom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/28/09
    Posts: 1743
    Meeting individual needs is what Montessori is about. Right? Can we just adopt this system? or something similiar? Is not the wheel already invented here to a degree?

    My son went to a Montessori like preschool thru 1st. There he was taught to do work that was right for him. If it was to easy or too hard he could get different work. This was 8 kids to 1 teacher. At our current school, (that we are leaving) they give CANDY rewards for school work/behavior while the prior school taught the kids to be proud of themselves and enjoy challenges. Quick fixes rather than developing the desire to do the right thing is not as long lasting. It's seems counter productive to give a child a prize for reading 20 books which detracts from the real internal prize.

    Why are they giving kids candy on a weekly basics at school? Has anyone heard about childhood obesity on the rise? Ok, I know I'm going off subject, but I just had to say this.

    I think it would be wonderful if it was required to know students ability which means above level testing. Could grades be based on progress and effort? Pretesting needs to be part of the solution.

    Teacher need to be educated on how to teach our diverse ability population and assign kids to their level not their age/grade. More teachers/parents need to know how we compare to other countries. Parents need to tell schools what they want.

    This gifted issue needs to be in the media more. How about the nightly news have regular spots on improving education. How about offering lectures to parents at schools and libraries. Is there a way to promote local gifted support groups? When I started to figure this out I did not have anyone to turn to guide me through this. School Psychologist need training on gifted kids needs.





    Edited by onthegomom (06/10/10 01:26 PM)

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    #80950 - 07/23/10 02:48 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: bk1]
    AGVIgifted Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/07/10
    Posts: 44
    Loc: West Coast
    Fluid movement through courses and material, beginning at the elementary level, will theoretically allow students to excel in areas of strength and get extra help in other areas if needed.

    If this type of educational methodology were the norm, specialized gifted education and lack of funding for gifted programs would not be an issue. Nor would funding for programs geared toward remediation. Jan Davidson hasn't presented a brand-new educational model. However, many public and private schools are still very rigid with curriculum requirements.

    I'm sure there isn't one solution that is applicable to all schools in all districts, but it's clear that something needs to change.
    _________________________
    Daa'iyah Na'im
    Director/Head of School
    The AGVI Academy for Gifted Youth
    http://AGVIgifted.org

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    #91157 - 12/15/10 07:42 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Harriet1609 Offline
    New Member

    Registered: 12/15/10
    Posts: 1
    At what age are students tested for gifted in the state of Ct. What happens if a school is not meeting their needs? As a teacher of the gifted in Florida I know our sate rules and trying to help my daughter. She can not afford private school for her boys. Anyone that can help?


    Edited by Harriet1609 (12/15/10 07:43 PM)

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    #91168 - 12/16/10 06:56 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Peter Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/16/10
    Posts: 249
    I believe working with the school will be fruitful instead of fighting it. I know many schools and districts neglect gifted education. But we can advocate gifted education in our own schools.

    Accelerating the kids also come with a price that the kids' physical development (may be emotional)is behind their intellect level and sometmes feel out of place in the class room (especially >2 grades level).

    We are now in internet age and online education is available through CTY or EPGY. If the kid does online education after school, it takes away their freee time and they will be bored at school listening to what they already know. I am working with the school to have my daughter take online classes (in the school library) when the class is doing Math or reading. I think it will be win-win situation except that we have to pay out of pocket for the online classes.

    But if we have more kids doing it, we will apply for grant from the school district or other foundations. I just wish that there is a website like youtube with school curriculum and related videos and work sheet for the kids to learn (small fee) and kids can progress at their own pace. This could be the education reform that we need in USA.

    If anyone trying to slash funds for gifted education, remind them that the digital evolution that keeps USA on top of world economy are founders of Microsoft, Intel, and silicon valley who were gifted students.


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    #91175 - 12/16/10 09:23 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Harriet1609]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Originally Posted By: Harriet1609
    At what age are students tested for gifted in the state of Ct. What happens if a school is not meeting their needs? As a teacher of the gifted in Florida I know our sate rules and trying to help my daughter. She can not afford private school for her boys. Anyone that can help?

    Florida and CT are very very different as far as gifted. In CT programs vary from school district to school district, with no mandated programing from the state at all.
    Ask your friend to post the particulars here, (start a new thread, under 'Advocacy' or she might get ignored by accident) and we will try and help brainstorm what some good next steps might be.

    It is possible to get a good fit education from public school in CT, but it takes a lot of negotiation and time. The first step is to figure out what the child's needs are, and then to figure out what the school has that could meet those needs. The good news is that in CT, one won't be pushed into a 'one size fits all' gifted program in most towns - because there isn't one! And since all gifted children's needs really are individual, that can be an advantage!

    Best Wishes, and thanks for being a good friend,
    Grinity
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #91176 - 12/16/10 09:27 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Peter]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Originally Posted By: Peter
    Accelerating the kids also come with a price that the kids' physical development (may be emotional)is behind their intellect level and sometmes feel out of place in the class room (especially >2 grades level).

    Welcome Peter - So glad you are finding something that works for you daughter - Yippee!
    I have to disagree with the above though - so much depends on the kid and the personality - I know gifted kids who don't find kids at their social/emotinal level until they are +3 agemates! I also know kids who are 'playing up'a few years in very competitive sports.
    I know adults who hated their gradeskips because they felt too young, and I know adults who hated their gradeskips because the skip wasn't enough!
    The more flexible the school system, the better chance of meeting the child's needs - that is certian!
    Smiles,
    Grinity

    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #91464 - 12/23/10 03:51 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Ellipses Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/22/09
    Posts: 402
    Loc: Colorado
    In this amazing balance-act of our childrens' education, don't forget hormones and "dating". My daughter is a little younger than her grade, but still wants to "go out" with boys. This has been a struggle - and yes, I have already had to revive Ophelia.

    Older boys are more savvy at their number one goal - and I don't need to tell you what it is. While my daughter is very smart, her hormones sometimes outwit her intellect.

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    #91493 - 12/24/10 12:06 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Grinity]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Grinity
    Originally Posted By: Peter
    Accelerating the kids also come with a price that the kids' physical development (may be emotional)is behind their intellect level and sometmes feel out of place in the class room (especially >2 grades level).


    I have to disagree with the above though - so much depends on the kid and the personality ...



    I can see both points. Our eldest has skipped two grades, and does well socially now. But it's clear that fitting in when he's in high school (if he goes to a traditional high school) would be a huge challenge. He may be able to debate the high school students on their own level already, but socially, his interests are a world apart from theirs (and this is completely normal).

    An 11-year-old 9th grader would be in an environment where half the kids are at least five years older. That's a big difference. And a student who's +3 accelerated will be two years away from the beginning of puberty in a place where pretty much everyone is well into it. Maybe I'm way out of line here, but I just don't think that a high IQ can compensate for that socially. They're completely different things.

    I understand the need for academic challenges, and I understand about not always fitting in with age mates in school, having BTDT. And no one in my house regrets the skips. Academically and socially, my son is doing well --- but he's in a very small school and is outgoing.

    But at the same time, I think it's important to think about how school and college will be addressed when considering radical acceleration. This is just my opinion, but I think it's possible to get so focused on the academics that the very real differences in maturity (especially in high school) get overlooked. I really, really, don't want to put my kids into a position where they feel so outside the norm, they lose perspective and feel like outsiders. They're outside the norm in some ways (learning speed), but not in others (games, toys, height, many age-based activities).

    I'm NOT advocating against grade skips. I'm only advocating FOR planning ahead thoughtfully by considering different aspects of life after multiple skips.

    Val




    Edited by Val (12/24/10 12:11 AM)

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    #99908 - 04/20/11 08:39 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    Mmh.

    Davidson Institute for Talent Development has a page on Facebook.
    If you find it & "like" it you get regular posts in your newsfeed with all your friends updates. This Just In...

    http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/speced/2011/04/bipartisan_talent_act_would_bo.html

    There's a bill in congress right now that would adjust the NCLB law to include a requirement that schools capture proof of academic growth for students performing above their own grade level.

    Hi-5s and cigars for all the dedicated parents over the years who brought this up to the school district, you've finally reached capital hill. "We must be the change we want to see in the world." -Ghandi
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

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    #99910 - 04/20/11 09:05 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: La Texican]
    aculady Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/31/10
    Posts: 1040
    This comes on the heels of the Javits Act being killed. Giving with one hand, taking away with the other.

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    #99911 - 04/20/11 09:12 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Quote:
    An 11-year-old 9th grader would be in an environment where half the kids are at least five years older. That's a big difference. And a student who's +3 accelerated will be two years away from the beginning of puberty in a place where pretty much everyone is well into it. Maybe I'm way out of line here, but I just don't think that a high IQ can compensate for that socially. They're completely different things.



    YES.

    That is the situation that my DD finds herself in.
    Now, because of a virtual environment, that still works okay. Her interests, fortunately, run along "geek" lines, so she makes friends pretty easily with the boys in her classes. She simply keeps some of her OTHER interests (the 11-12 yo ones) to herself with her schoolmates, and saves those for playmates closer to her own age. All that is fine and healthy.


    There are issues with her maturity not matching the expectations of high school students' executive skills, and we still don't have enough academic challenge in the mix, I know...

    but truly, if it's this bad a fit now, with +3 grades and honors coursework that is hypothetically differentiated... I can't even fathom what a chronological placement for her would be like.

    Yes, also, to Val's point about considering what this does to college options (and considering the family dynamics at that stage, too). DD isn't going to go to an Ivy as an undergraduate who is fourteen years old. Not happening. Partly that is because of her age and our geographic location. We'd have to MOVE to wherever she went to college to make that feasible.

    <shrug> It wasn't a big deal to us, but it was something we thought about. Will it eventually matter to DD that she's Ivy caliber and didn't have the option? Maybe. But I doubt it, knowing her personality.

    _________________________
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    #99913 - 04/20/11 09:15 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Well, nevermind....



    LOL-- just now seeing that La Tex's post is the new one today and Val's is much older.


    I wonder if this means that the school's own mandatory "look how stupid you were at the START of the year as compared to NOW" tests are going to start actually meaning something? You know, as opposed to;
    "Yup. You knew everything then. Good, you still seem to know MOST of what you knew last September. First do no harm and all that... very good..." smirk


    Heehee.
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    #99916 - 04/20/11 10:41 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: HowlerKarma]
    aculady Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/31/10
    Posts: 1040
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma


    I wonder if this means that the school's own mandatory "look how stupid you were at the START of the year as compared to NOW" tests are going to start actually meaning something? You know, as opposed to;
    "Yup. You knew everything then. Good, you still seem to know MOST of what you knew last September. First do no harm and all that... very good..." smirk

    Heehee.


    Oh, I hope so. When we were looking at putting my 2E son, then 5, into public K, we requested that one of his IEP goals be that he would make at least 1 academic years' worth of progress in each academic area each year - both in areas where he was delayed and in areas where he was significantly ahead. They nearly choked!

    Just one more reason why we homeschool...



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    #100548 - 04/27/11 07:03 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Adie Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/26/11
    Posts: 3
    I totally agree with this. I think that unfortunately the school system worldwide has not developed with our children, irrespective of his/her ability. I saw a wonderful clip regarding "21st century education in New Brunswick, Canada", now this is definitely my idea as to how education should be.

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    #114684 - 10/25/11 11:24 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Sammy1 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/25/11
    Posts: 5
    I agree with all posted actually. I would like to see the classrooms as socially academic and we need to separate how we socialize. School needs to be about intellectual socialization and not age appropriate social patterns. That way it wouldn't matter if my son was eight and in Algebra as long as they talked about Algebra.
    If people are worried about socialization when it comes to age then there could be after school programs for that instead of after school programs for a child who isn't learning enough in school because he is beyond his grade level in academics. Getting tired of the upside down issues with public school. I'm finally online schooling as they were the only ones who tested him and put him into subjects at his level regardless of age. He was in a gifted program at a public school to boot but they still could not go beyond a certain academic level regarding age. It's a strange challenge, one I can't really wrap my mind around. It doesn't compute.

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    #131084 - 06/02/12 11:12 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    BeckyZ Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 06/01/12
    Posts: 2
    If you study organizational behavior you find that people behave just like animals in terms of taking whatever action or lack thereof that is EASIEST. School district administrators are always going to favor teaching to the middle of the bell curve because that is what is easiest for the institution to deal with. They have no incentivization for high performance. Their incentive is to move the greatest number of kids through their system in the easiest way possible FOR THEM. My son is 2E- both very gifted and ADD. There is absolutely no incentive for the school district to take an interest in meeting his educational needs. It would be a lot of extra work and they will get nothing back from it. They would have to make exceptions to rules in a large and very rule based institution. My son is nothing but a headache for them. Horseybz@msn.com

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    #131563 - 06/08/12 08:04 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    mathwonk Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 06/06/12
    Posts: 11
    As a teacher, I wonder how one implements this individual instruction when you have more than 8 pupils. As a college professor with 30+ students per class, I sat alone in office hours day after day because students were unwilling to ask for individual help until there was a test. I recall one young woman, really struggling even at the basics, who did come in. I spent three hours one day with her, staying until 7:30pm, missing dinner with my wife. The student at last saw the point of integral calculus and even began to make observations that the rest of the class had not yet done. Then she dropped the class. sighhh. In all my decades teaching I can only think of two students who came to office hours really faithfully. One is now a college professor and researcher in education, and the other got a phd in biology from MIT and started her own consulting business from home while also a mother and housewife. I suspect motivation is everything, but how to kindle it and keep it alive? My own children ultimately refused to let me add to their education because the other kids at school didn't have to do any extra work. When they found out how easy school was they learned to slide almost all the time. But in fairness, the school did offer many things I could not, superb English instruction, social skills, athletics.

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    #131589 - 06/08/12 01:41 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Val]
    Cricket2 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/11/09
    Posts: 2172
    Loc: Colorado
    Originally Posted By: Val
    This is just my opinion, but I think it's possible to get so focused on the academics that the very real differences in maturity (especially in high school) get overlooked. I really, really, don't want to put my kids into a position where they feel so outside the norm, they lose perspective and feel like outsiders. They're outside the norm in some ways (learning speed), but not in others (games, toys, height, many age-based activities).

    I hope that I am not derailing this too much and I do realize that this quote is old, but it brought to mind something.

    I often see here and elsewhere the struggles with finding an appropriate social fit for a child who needs dramatic acceleration with the note that the child is still younger in terms of maturity than his/her intellectual peers.

    Do most of you with HG+ kids find that they are mentally/emotionally their chronological age while intellectually much older?

    I do have one who is 2e who I'd say is, in terms of maturity, about where I'd expect an 11.5 y/o to be. I don't know if that's due to the 2e aspect or being the youngest child in the family, asynchronisity, or something else.

    On the other hand, my older dd is emotionally much older than her age. She will be starting 10th grade a bit before her 14th bd in the fall, which is young, but not radical to the extent that some of you mention. However, she seems much more mature than her grade mates even though many of them are around 18 months or more older. People usually assume that she is 16 or so not b/c she looks old but b/c she seems older when you talk to her.

    She is also very mature in terms of making decision about class selections and pretty much everything. I don't think that I was as mature or centered even when I was in college. Am I the only one with a HG+ kid like this?
    _________________________
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    #131596 - 06/08/12 03:38 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    bobbie Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/16/11
    Posts: 136
    I went to a gifted talk on acceleration last year and the speaker said that in many cases the emotional/social age is in-between chronological and intellectual age, usually closer to intellectual age. Definitely the case in our household.

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    #131607 - 06/08/12 07:33 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Cricket2]
    AlexsMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/01/10
    Posts: 741
    Originally Posted By: Cricket2
    Do most of you with HG+ kids find that they are mentally/emotionally their chronological age while intellectually much older?


    I think it varies a lot, and that adult-impression is not necessarily the same as kid-impression. I think my DD is well-placed socially with her 18-months-older classmates; DD ascribes some of her social issues as being age-related (but I think they aren't necessarily). Her cousin (at least as gifted, and entirely possibly more so), OTOH, IMHO acts younger than her age.

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    #131608 - 06/08/12 07:58 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Just to clarify what I said: with my son (two grade skips), the differences didn't become a big deal until 8th grade. At that point, the kids in his class were mostly a lot more developed than him and interested in things (like girls) in a way that hadn't hit him yet in the way it had hit them. The boys' voices had all changed and his hadn't. That kind of stuff.I'm really thinking about primarily physiological reasons for a lack of connection at times (though there are others, depending on the kid).


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    #131618 - 06/09/12 06:16 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1472
    I think hormones dictate another story for middle school years. When I skipped in elementary school, girls usually didn't puberty until middle school and those hormones bring about all kinds of issues. Now girls are entering puberty sooner. (part of that is attributed to non-traditional family -- since being around a biological father inhibits early puberty in an offspring) though they are finding early puberty around the planet. So you have a kid skipping a couple of years in elementary school being thrown in with girls that are entering or in the "boy crazy" stage.

    Talking about chronological and social ages really are varaiable around middle school.


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    #131621 - 06/09/12 07:01 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Wren]
    RobotMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/25/09
    Posts: 604
    Loc: in a happier place
    DD9 is definitely closer to her intellectual age when it comes to maturity than her chronological age. She has always been this way. I would say she is about 2-3 years "older" maturity wise than her actual age.
    DD4 though seems to be closer to her chronological age than her older sister. But that maybe due to her being the youngest.

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    #131630 - 06/09/12 12:15 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    I think it's very common for HG and above kids to be more mature than chronological age. I think it's common for way gifted kids with ADHD to be somewhere in between chronological and intellectual.

    What fascinates me is the way that the 2E kids are between. Some say the most subtle things that reflect levels way beyond most adults, and then turn around act in age-typical ways. I don't think maturity level can be 'averaged.' It's like taking the average between my income and Bill Gate's. You get a number but what does it mean?

    So I get more meaning by splitting 'maturity' into a lot of different subconcepts and figuring out if the kid in question is strong, challenged, or variable in each subconcept.
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #131642 - 06/09/12 08:18 PM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Cricket2]
    mnmom23 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/11/09
    Posts: 701
    Originally Posted By: Cricket2

    Do most of you with HG+ kids find that they are mentally/emotionally their chronological age while intellectually much older?


    My DD10 is in school and all related activities with kids 15 mos. to 2+ years older than her and she is every bit on their level mentally, emotionally,and even physically (e.g., not the shortest, in the same vague area of puberty since there is such a wide variety with this, athletically). She has always been a very responsible, thoughtful, rule-following kiddo who has interests of all kinds much more in line with her intellectual peers and probably could have survived in the wilderness on her own when she was five wink because she was just that responsible and trustworthy. She has one year of middle school under her belt and we've had absolutely no issues that people sometimes worry about.

    With DS8 I would tend more towards somewhere between actual and intellectual age except that he has been grade skipped and everyone thinks we've redshirted him because of his intellectual, physical, and - they say - emotional maturity. So, virtually everyone around him thinks he's two years older than he actually is, and the people he hangs with are all two grades up. Not one of these kids (who all go to a different school) or their parents know he's as old as he is because he just seems older. And really, the more intellectually appropriate his environment is the more mature he acts.
    _________________________
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    #131904 - 06/15/12 01:52 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Mark D.]
    Tallulah Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/25/10
    Posts: 480
    I have two PG kids, one is more mature than their age, the other is less mature than their age - that presents a real issue wrt accelleration.

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    #151785 - 03/23/13 10:15 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: EastnWest]
    Bluestar Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/23/13
    Posts: 11
    I had a discussion fairly recently with a man in Mensa and I asked this very question- how can we gifteds change society? One thing he brought up is that the only successful gifteds are the ones who know how to 'dumb-down'. Makes sense to me. He told me that mags and papers write stories in 5th-8th grade level. I was shocked! Another thing this made me remember is an article I once read. It discussed successful advertising and why it is successful- said that people do not want logical, they want appealing, either to their baser emotions or to their idea of celebrity. Trouble with us gifteds is that we like logical best and use logic predominantly. If the other 70-80% of the population does not, we have no 'connection' with them and therefore our thoughts are not their thoughts. They do not care about the things we think are vital.

    The way I see it is- if we are to be successful in this effort we must figure out what IS important to them and slant our wishes in that direction. A problem I see many times is that it is all about one-upman-ship. 'My ___ is better than yours' mentality. I cannot stoop to those types of levels; I'm too moral for that.

    I think starting out as a business is a great idea because business is their language. We need to get together and form a coalition or something and start our own charter schools, etc... If our profits exceed others we may get some attention. smirk

    Davidson Academy needs a duplicate in every major city, perhaps.

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    #151787 - 03/23/13 10:32 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: bk1]
    Bluestar Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/23/13
    Posts: 11
    You wrote:
    Right now, the tests only judge proficiency at grade level. My older child probably would have passed the fifth grade proficiency exam years ago, but instead, each year all he got to show was that he was proficient at first grade skills, proficient at 2nd grade skills, etc. As long as he showed as proficient, no one really cared that he'd learned next to nothing all year in class and that almost all his learning was done outside of school.

    I know what you mean; I brought that very thought up to our school's staff. I had noticed that most of my family could be any number of professionals; however they always lack credentials. I want my children to get the notice and credentials, for their abilities, that they deserve. The only way that will happen is if I find a school willing to let them go at their own pace; which means individualized instruction.

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    #151789 - 03/23/13 10:47 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Harriet1609]
    Bluestar Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/23/13
    Posts: 11
    My thought is to going virtual school if possible. I am going to try it. At least I will have access to what the children should be doing at what age and they are not as likely to fall way behind in something because I don't know to present it to them. But it should get them more individualized attention.

    I have noticed that most times councilors are loth to IQ test before 3rd grade. I am awaiting that very thing for my 8y/o. I am contemplating getting her professionally tested, though it will be around $200. I see that pro testing may be a good idea considering the tests are more accurate and detailed?? I plan to read more to see if that is what many people have experienced.


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    #184702 - 03/13/14 06:47 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: Grinity]
    Alicelewis Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/13/14
    Posts: 3
    if you think about it many actors, scientist, artist etc. are probably somewhat gifted and can at least imagine if not relate to the fact that gifted children are held back in our society by either public schools or the inability to pay for private educations.

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    #188486 - 04/16/14 06:51 AM Re: Synopsis of Jan Davidson's keynote speech - TAGT [Re: EastnWest]
    xsantos Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/21/13
    Posts: 31
    Loc: NJ
    WE will be be circling in the same problem which is 'no child left behind'. My son is not a average child. He needs more of everything the school can provide but, he is not behind so okey?.I have Many Friends, their children are taking extra lessons because they are behind. I saw the "special education classroom"
    Smart tables, I pads, one by one teaching. I know my boy isnt behind, he is above but struggling in the classroom and no help? Why? WHY? When He was 2 years old he was more happy. In school years, The more He was craving to learn, The more he struggeled. Now he is upset and somehow broken. When He was four years old,He was talking about special magnetic shose he will design for his space shuttle, he was playing with the numbers. Every morning he was running to our bedroom with his silly ideas.( "Oh momy you know what? I will make a space shuttle just behave like a light. IF it can behave like a light I think he can go faster but momy I need to know more. Can you teach me? School can teach me ? No I can not, school can not. but Why ? WHY? WHY?). Now He is learning to disobey and become lazy.He is still the same child I know but he lost his connection. His grade score is getting worse. He is tired.

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