Is there much difference in Scat vs. Explore test? I'm interested about learning more about my DS9's Math and Science knowledge, capabilities and potential. He has taken the WJIII achievement and will take an IQ. I looking into talent searches for summer online courses and wondering if I should consider one test opportunity more beneficial that the other.

LOTS of difference!!!

In short...

SCAT
Test is given in three different levels...as an older 3rd grader, he'd probably be bored with the 2nd/3rd grade level. This level though does use higher norms....it's a 4th-6th test. Test is broken up into two 55 question parts, one for verbal, one for math. 50 questions on each side count, as 5 are "experimental". Each half only takes about 10-20 minutes (I think the kid has 20 minutes?) You are literally in and out well within an hour. You test at your convenience, and testing is on a computer at a Prometric test center. Testing is more aptitude than achievement, as the verbal is analogies and the math are comparisons, typically made without really solving the problem. As a chrono 4th grader, he really should get a high score on this one. Results come fast, typically within about 2 weeks.

Explore
You must test on one of two test dates, in late January or late February. The test has 4 distinct sections, each one 30 minutes long (30-40 multiple choice questions). There is a break in the middle, and with getting the papers handed out, etc...this is a good morning of testing. The sections are math, reading, English and science. You get scores for each of the parts, as well as a composite. Scoring is against fall 8th grade norms, and the test is a standard 8th grade test. Testing is paper/pencil, with a calculator allowed. Testing is more "achievement" than aptitude. Results take forever, and have been known to surpass the 8 week mark, .

P.S...the year I was undecided, we just did both, .

Thanks - very timely! I just got SCAT materials in the mail yesterday. I think we're going to just do the "easy" SCAT this year. DS has no experience with pen and pencil or A/B/C/D style tests and this would be good practice. I printed out their practice test and he thought it was really fun! Now I kind of wish I would have bumped him to the next grade level. Ah well ... next year maybe the Explore.

Keep in mind that "bumping up" has long term implications, including when the child might need to take the SAT. I don't know that I recommend it in situations where that's not the ultimate desire for reasons other than talent search ones.

P.S...and there's nothing wrong with a rocket high score, !

DS6 is supposed to take the SCAT tomorrow. Too bad he got sick on Monday--a few hours after the 48 prior mark so I can't reschedule without an obnoxious fee and I can't cancel without losing all the money. Hopefully today is the worst of his flu. I guess he can always retake in a few months if his scores are really bad.

Good point! We are going to do more thorough Achievement tests towards the end of the year, so it's probably better that he enjoys this first experience with testing. .

I never personally did well on these types of tests until I got much older, so I'm a little nervous for him and want it to be a good experience! I can think back to the conversations I used to have in my head during fill in the circle tests. They were like small dissertations on why each answer could or could not be the right one. I wish someone would have sat me down when I was 8 and told me that it really shouldn't be that hard.

Poor guy Crisc. Hope he's feeling better by tomorrow!

Dottie - it sounds like explore would be the better option since it has science. Are you saying a child could take this during his 3rd grade year?

Depends on your local talent search options. My son took it in 3rd, but through C-MITES which is PA specific. Look here for something that services your area for any talent search...

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10260.aspx

Aw Crisc, I hope he feels better today!!!!

Crisc,

I've got to think that they'd reschedule him for free. They certainly don't want the flu. Call and ask. And hope he feels better soon!

I did call. That's how I found out about the fees. He seems a little better this evening. Thanks for the well wishes...I'll let everyone know how it turns out tomorrow.

Their loss... You'd think they'd call the supervisor and explain. Hope he's doing better.

Sorry, crisc! What a pain!

Hope the boy feels better soon.

DS6 felt much better today and took the test. He finished the verbal with 9 minutes left and couldn't do the last 3 math questions because he ran out of time. He thought some questions were hard and some were easy. I guess we'll see how it turns out in a week or two.

I'm glad he's feeling better and that you're not out the money.

That's great Crisc! DS didn't finish the math his first year either, but still did quite well. Happy waiting!

Great! Glad he was feeling better. Good luck!

DS in 3rd will be given an IQ this year hopefully soon. I figured out he can take the Explore with a talent search that will take the test scores and make recommendations. My reason for testing is to try to figure out what he needs for his education. It would also be more information to provide for the school. Do you think the school will relate to the SCAT test?

Is there a reason why we should do the SCAT test?

The principal is for more depth for gifted students but not acceleration. I'm ok with this at this point. My son just wants to learn something. So, I would be ok if he did his math at a condensed, fast pace freeing him up to learn something else like computer programming or had a more enriched Math. I would also be ok with him accelerating in Math, but I want to know if our HS will let him do above level work. I know our state pays for college class for High School students. Somehow I need the principal to see that he can learn what he needs in less time with less repetition than ND child and still have mastery.

The school is making some nice efforts. He is doing an independent study that gives him the excitement of learning. He will do this with another boy he says is smart.

The trouble is all daily folder work during the day is driving him crazy. The teacher says it's all essential. They did eliminate one page of spelling cursive writing repetition that helps. My guess is he is getting more busy work and repetitions than is needed. I can't look at the work and know what he does not need all the time. EX. he knows spelling words first day so he doesn't need to do the circle word find. Maybe it's a issue of too high maintenance for the teacher. I wish they would tell me that when it's the case. The cursive writing is also driving him crazy. I told him the writing will get easier.

I noticed he was finally getting to 4 digits in his 3rd Grade Math. I said yeah finally. He then complained, it's just more writing. It's not more challenging it's just more writing. He said he could do this in K. He then agreed to work towards a goal of getting an online course at school for Math that was more right for him. He wants more meaningful work.

Any suggestion that don't include moving him up a grade or more?
Any suggestions for helping my son deal with his frustration?

Since my DS, in 3rd will have recently completed IQ and WJIII achievement(end of 2nd Grade) would the SCAT give more information? Is there a reason he should take it?

I don't see how the SCAT could give more information than the other tests you have lined up, OTGM. Main reason for taking it is to be able to do some of the JHU programs.

thank you.

one more question. Is it possible to compare a student's SCAT scores to a potential school's scores?

I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure I understand the question. Compare to what kind of school scores?

I probably don't have any further knowledge to offer here - you could check the JHU SCAT talent search site.

What do you mean "potential school's scores"? Are you talking about the upcoming IQ testing? Keep in mind, these are totally different types of tests...as are achievement and IQ as well. Typically we would expect them to correlate together, but they are by their nature different.

However, in my own experience, I find the CTY cuts to be slightly above what I would call "MG". I think hitting the mean for other CTY testers is a good "touchy feely" for and MG cut of 95th-98th percentile. Exceeding that, and hitting their program levels is getting more into an HG range. Award levels are possibly HG+, but again that's just "touchy feely".

I do think that a child hitting CTY levels in both subject areas should test gifted (130+) on an IQ test, but not all do. It's possible too that the data lands in the opposite direction. I would expect an HG child in particular to easily hit their levels, but other factors are at play, including exposure, timed aspects, etc.

As always, my mantra is "the more data the better". The picture gets colored in with time.

Using CTY data though, I'm pretty fond of their own generic insights. Testing "above level" (and the years above level grows with age), they have three LOGs....

<50th ~ not likely hitting that "gifted" cut that requires services
50th-75th ~ Probably well served by pullout and enrichment programs
75th-90th ~ Smarter than just MG, with suggested extras like possible subject acceleration, etc
>90th ~ In need of radical changes

I find that data to be worthwhile regardless of anticipated program involvement (assuming the cost is not a hardship and the child is willing).

Sorry but I think I did not ask my question the right way.

I know of a school that does SCAT testing. This is a local private school (not a talent search. It is a school I am interested in my kids attending. If my DS had a SCAT test scores, could we see how he compared to the other students in his grade at a school that does SCAT testing? Someone told me this school is doing work 2 years ahead of our current school. I was wondering, could I use the scores as a way to see if this was the right school for him?

That's entirely possible if the school is willing to share the data. You will get raw scores as well as percentiles for the higher grade level (+2 years in your son's case), and if the same test version is used (4th-6th, "elementary" in your son's case), direct comparisons are possible. The testing is timed for CTY. I would verify that the timing is the same for the private school setting (20 minutes per half).

thank you. Dottie

Hmmm. I guess I hadn't thought of JHU's various levels that way. Here's an OT question for you, Dottie, or others, what do you think about the SAT for a 7th grader who has qualified for CTY (solidly in the 75th-90% range) in verbal (but not math) previously?

I'm debating whether or not to sign DD12 up - the SAT seems like an entirely different proposition to me than SCAT. She is willing to do it, though I haven't described the test in any detail so she may think differently when I do. We weren't able to take advantage of the camps & courses this past year but she is somewhat interested in them and it might work out this year.

If she's willing, I'd let her try. I have a similar dilema with DD12 (already signed up). She answered "yes" to a willingness to take it, but I haven't yet had a greatly needed talk with her. This talk will make clear that the expectation (particularly for her, though I won't focus on that) is NOT to finish. I want her to be clear on that going in, as it's highly doubtful that she has a chance in that regard. I do expect she'll do well on what she attempts, and I want to nurture that.

I guess if the child understands that parts of the testing are likely to be viewed as "impossible", and won't be discouraged by that, then sure....send 'em in! Each score tends to stand alone as well. DS first tested at barely 9, and he answered the verbal questions for something to do while waiting for the next math question. His verbal score was certainly not 'bad', but on its own...it did somewhat have that 'why on earth would you send a 9 year old in' aspect to it, .

I like to share something my DD15 told me recently. As a sophomore, many of her friends are starting to stress about the SAT. She shared that she was not at all stressed by that, as she knew what to expect based on her CTY testing experience. This alone was worth it for us!

My take on the CTY levels may be inaccurate. I know of personal examples that don't really fit the mold, and we always need to keep in mind that the SCAT in particular is VERY brief, and also subject to a "guessing bonus". We shouldn't read too much into any one score, be it high or low, especially if it doesn't fit the pattern of achievement/ability we see over time.

Yes, your DD15's thoughts are one of the things that make me think it would be a good thing for DD12 to try. But, it will be by far the hardest testing experience she has had. On the other hand, not sure what message I am sending if I don't sign her up...especially when she already feels like DS7 is catching up to her and he's signed up for SCAT.

I think I will have to draw that bell curve for her, even though we aren't in a one kid in DYS situation. Plus, let her know that just being offered a chance to take an above-level test is unusual.

This was another deciding factor in signing up DD12...who am I to underestimate her, and only test the other 2?

One thing people often overlook in SAT/ACT testing is that they are very LONG tests. If a child does not have good stamina or has ADD, it may be very difficult for them physically and mentally, even if they are in the right intellectual ballpark to do well. My son, for instance, found the process exhausting at age 11, and for that reason, I am not planning to have my younger children take these until they are about 11.

OTOH, if a child has endurance and is ready earlier, I see no reason not to let them dive in!

Lorel, I was just wondering about this. I signed my DS up for the Explore test in Feb. He turns 9 next week so he is an older 3rd grader in a FT Gifted program. He does have ADHD. After seeing the first several posts it sounds like the explore test takes a good bit of time without a ton of breaks.

I wonder if I'm setting him up for failure and should wait a few years. Maybe the SCAT would be a better intro to these types of test situations.

R

Samson, the Explore is two 30 minute sections back-to-back...followed by a pretty nicely pumped up break (test center dependent, but ours was nice), and then another two 30 minute sections back-to-back. It is "long" for young kids. Throw in directions and possible surveys at the beginning, and you are talking over 3 hours. Hope that helps with the decision making.

DS is just very "whatever", in every aspect of life. I think the fact that he casually entered the SAT testing (amidst all those "big kids"), and survived the marathon impressed the schools as much as his actual scores did. I know it helped with the decision to allow him physically into the high school for classes.

My girls are tall, and can probably pass for pretty darn close to high school at age 12 (on casual glance). There was no ignoring the "little guy" in the halls though.

(My DD12 is WAY more theatrical....her experience will be quite different I'm sure!)

The nice part about signing up for the Explore through a talent search is having all younger kids at the test. There were some pretty big 6th graders, but some small 3rd graders, and the vast majority seemed to be 4th & 5th graders when GS10 took it last Feb.
FWIW, GS10 came out with that 'exhausted, but exhiliarated' feeling. He was 9 yrs, 7 months.

SCAT is very fast- maybe an hour? It is done at a testing center (we used Prometric) and is far less of an ordeal than the SAT or ACT.

Should I be concerned about such a long test for my DS9, in 3rd with the Explore?

Last week, school gave him an IQ test and he came home upset. I thought they would call before they started testing, because that what happened last time. He was not prepared. The tester did not explain the test to him. He was upset he did not know some information and said they asked strange questions. When he took the WJIII Achievement(May,2009) I explained to him ahead of time and he was fine.

Usually he does not have test anxiety. He says he likes tests. The teacher gives the option to be timed or not for Math facts and he chooses timed test.

Most schools pull kids at their convenience for this type of testing. If you are lucky, you might get a call saying it could happen "this week". I tried to pinpoint the date for one of my kiddos, and got an email back that read something like "I would hope your DD is healthy and well fed every day", ROFL! It is nice to get some level of heads up though.

Did you get any tentative results yet? As for the Explore...you know how long it is, and you know your son best. Have you asked for his input?

I did not get any IQ results yet. They will call a meeting with us and give us the results then. I really wonder what they hope to get out of it.

AS for the Explore, I will wait a bit to talk to him becuase of his IQ test experience. He did say he was willing to do more testing to have more opportunities to be challenged with a talent search class or school. I told him I could not make any promises other than to keep trying for him. I think he is very hungry for more challenging work. He would love his own Apropriate Level Math Class at school instead of all the review. I'm glad he has the ambition in him. He has a wonderful attention span so I guess Explore will be ok for him. I just asked becuase I was wondering if there was more to consider.

Thanks for your help.

I am testing my older son in third grade with the Explore. I figure even if he does not test well this year, the format of the Explore is similar to many long tests he will be subjected to as he grows and we try to get him into gifted summer programs. My idea is that if he takes the test yearly, even if he doesn't do well this year, it will become just another thing he has to do.:)