Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Complicating the Math?

My DD6 is doing Addition Flash Cards. Here's her thinking.
9+5=?
so 5+5=10 and 4 left over from 9,
so 10 + 4 = 14


With 9 addition it's always one less than number added.
She doesn't want to hear the short cut and got mad at me for suggesting it. I didn't want to insist and just said there is more than one way to get an anwser. Why would she choose the long way? She is doing great with her + & - facts. I wonder about this. I feel like there is something happening that I don't get. Her brother DS9 is doing something with his 4 digit to complicate his computation too. Both are gifted kids. DS is probally hG or PG in math. Am I overthinking this? Please offer suggestions. Thank you in advance.

FWIW, your DD's way sounds as though it could be just as quick as the way you think she should do it, to me! I wouldn't sweat it, other than maybe to share how you did something in an "isn't it interesting that there are different ways to get the same answer" way. My DS will sometimes answer from one calculation and then point out another way, adding "so it makes sense", and I think that's to be encouraged. If one way really is faster than another, I expect it'll be the one adopted in the end....

I use your daughter's way for adding 7s and 8s, and your for 9s. It's especially good for subtracting. I think that she probably like to see problems in an abstract way, and just doesn't like 'techniques' as much as the elegance of actually understanding the basis of what she is doing.

As long as she is fast enough for the classroom, I would leave it be.

Smiles,
Grinity

My DS8 would add like this, especially when we first started giving him two digit numbers. He would explain how he got the answer and it always seemed complicated to me. I never worried too much though, since a) he was coming up with the correct answer and b) I thought it was a good thing that he made simple things more challenging since it gave his brain a work out it never got in school.

My DH is always advocating the subtract 1 rule when dealing with 9. I keep working on the "know by heart" method, since that is easier for me

When I add multiple digit numbers I like finding all the 10s first. So I use both techniques...

Yes, I think you are overthinking this

The program that my DS originally started in was called "rightstart". That program teaches math the way your daughter does it. breaks everything down into block of 5's and 10's. It creates a great environment for mental math later on. Sounds like your DD has already figured that out!

She is doing the right thing. That's how I was taught and that's how Singapore math is done.

Yeah, I was just going to second that her methos follows the rightsmart math program. We are using that now. As for complicating math problems, my ds6 does that all the time. If I tell him the most straight-forward method, he says it's boring and wants to do it his own way. We had an issue with this today with addition and subtraction. I suggested using his fingers at one point, and he wouldn't hear of it. I held up my own fingers, and he almost went through the roof! LOL

What your daughter is doing is decomposing numbers. It shows great understanding of number and flexibility in her thinking. If you think about it, she's already figured out how "carrying" works--and why! It's sort of like emptying a coin jar and totaling up the contents--we usually don't count coin by coin or grab random amounts to add together, we group them into "easy sets" for counting. To use your example, imagine that your daughter slid nine dimes across the table, then slid over another five--she's recognizing that one of those dimes will complete her "first set" and leave her with an extra four.

thank you, you have reminded me to be open minded. My kids are creatively using their brains with math beyond what has been told to do. This creativity should not be discouraged. A simple question like this is really worth asking. It helps me be more accepting.

Tonight, my daughter was doing her Math Fact HW she was looking for patterns, even though the this was not part of the HW. MY DD looks for ways to challenge herself with school work. I remember her doing this in Preschool. It's occurring to me that this may be part of the Math Facts thinking.

Don't worry about it. It's so much better that they actually understand how the numbers work instead of just memorizing one way. She's just thinking in terms of 5's instead of 10's.

wow did I learn something new here. I asked my DD6 how she would practice her math if she didn't do flash cards? Did she want to do a computer disk during the day?

She said, No let's do dominoes. She made up a game. We take turns getting a domino and the other person say plus or minus. Then do the Math problem. She was sliding over dots in her mind and working with 5s. She said this was more fun than Math Facts. Amazing she figured out some Mental Math.

This is a big lesson. If an ambitious Child is fussing over learning something it may not just be a lack of cooperation. I now know it's a good idea to try to get them to express how they feel and gain a understanding rather than be mad they are not behaving. Kids are amazing to teach us these things.

Rightstart and Singapore Math both work in 5s and 10s. for 5+7, they would do 5+5+2. for 17+5, similarly 15+5+2. For 9+8, 5+5+4+3=10+7. You also get to 9+8=9+1 + 8-1 (ie make the 9 a 10). Another great game for math facts which most own is Chutes and Ladders. Use a 6 or 9-sided die and have DC add to determine where to land, no counting squares. Then move to using 2 dice. DC can add them, subtract them to determine where to move to. Also, you can subtract them to get negative numbers and move backwards if that puts you in a more favorable position ie if you roll a 3 and a 4, you can move forward 7, move forward 1 (4-3) or move backward 1 (3-4).

We used dominoes all the time for math. You can play addition or subtraction war by each pulling 2 dominoes. YOu can multiply the sides of the dominoes in multiplication war etc.

Dazey

The gifted teacher is having some trouble with the way my DS9 is doing his 4 digit addition and subtraction. She said he is getting it right but not doing it the quick way.

The principal said he is having trouble with his multiplication. I said, does he not know them or is it an understanding issue? She responded with something My DH and I did not understand. She said that's just right for him developmentally to not know this.

He recently did a sheet of multiplication at school with it all correct except he skipped a row by mistake. He could do multiplication in K.

I think some of this different ways of thinking in Math are about being gifted and coping with not enough challenge.

I'm confused about how/why he might be having a problem with multiplication. Any thoughts on helping with this or my children and school dealing with creativity in Math?

Could some one give me their opinion on the following note. Do you think this is ok?

Last year, the gifted teacher said, DS is doing 4 digit + & - Math in a way that she has never seen before but he is getting the right answer. I feel compelled to send this note because during an IEP meeting, school indicated My DS is not doing his 4 digit + & - Math the quick way and is having some trouble with Multiplication. I think they thought my husband's Math teaching is making school Math more confusing. They are contributing his Multiplication issue to not being developmentally ready for it, but I don't understand that. He did a whole sheet of Multiplication correct. It's touchy with school right now and I want to work with them.

They don't want to feel like I'm supervising. I feel like I would like the gifted teacher to be aware of this and work with the situation. I'm not sure if she knows this already. It feels important. I also think this will be a reoccurring theme with my kids at school. I'm making sure I don't email anyone at school more than once a week. I do see she gets lots of gifted stuff that works with my son but I don't want to be insulting. She has been the least defensive of everyone at school. I am trying to learn the line between necessary and annoying. please help if you can. Should I not send this?



Dear Gifted teacher,

Please forgive me if the following is common knowledge for you.

I am seeing both kids figuring out math ahead of schooling, without my prompting, using their own creative methods and it gives them the right answer.

I am handling it this way. There is more than one way to do Math and that's wonderful thinking. They need to keep in mind, sometimes they need to do it the school way.

ex. 9+5=

5+5=10, so then 4 + 10 = 14

At first, I thought she was being uncooperative because she didn't want to do Math Facts, until I realized she complicates the math to make it more interesting. She was sliding over domino dots in her mind. I think this is good because she is learning on a more in depth level, compared to memorizing, all is self motivated. She is doing fine with her Math facts at school. I would not want to hinder creative thinking. I'm thinking this will be a reoccurring theme with both children.

I don't consider myself a mathematical genius by any measure, but I am unable to see how the above approach to calculating "9+5" could be anything other than debilitating within the context of larger addition problems and multiplication problems, not to mention the problems encountered a year or two down the road.

One article at Hoagie's attacks the question of learning math facts head on, and I believe argues the necessity quite effectively. (Not for all kids, but for the majority.)
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/why_memorize.htm

I know that not everyone is a fan of memorizing math facts, but as this article relates:
"... there's a basic problem here that we as the parents of gifted children must come to terms with: Not all useful learning is intrinsically interesting."

Looking back at your proposed note, I honestly can't envision the teacher reacting positively to your suggestion. Yes, your children came up with creative ways to calculate math problems... but only because they'd not learned any other way to do it. Their creativity is not bad, or wrong, or anything else negative... it's just that they would arguably be better served by taking the time to learn more efficient processes.

You describe your daughter's approach as a deliberate effort to "complicate math in order to make it more interesting."

I think that if she takes the time to master her math facts -- as boring as they may seem -- she'll be able to enjoy tons & tons of higher-level math that she will undoubtedly find far more interesting than enlisting a novel approach to single-digit addition.

Dandy - I'm curious about what you wrote because I'm not saying the kids are not willing to learn Math Facts. They are doing very well with their Math Facts. I do think it will be an ongoing issue where my kids want to be ahead of what school is teaching. (Maybe this is insight into the need for acceleration.) They will come to me with their inventive Math. I think understanding this is creative or a child is seeking challenge is important. If one understands this, they can deal with this child better and be encouraging. They may not come up with the fastest way it works but they are using their brains to figure out something. They can realize the other way is faster and use it when speed is needed. I also agree, not all learning will be fun or interesting and is still neccessary to tolerate. I was thinking that my DD is getting enough Math Facts at school and if she wants to think more my doing this and enjoys it, let's do it.

I will read the article. thank you for your thoughts.

Doesn't Singapore Math teach something very much/exactly like onthegomom's DD's approach to math facts? It's been a while since we used SM, but I think it does.

Personally, I still "look for 10s" when I do long columns of addition. It's just easier and quicker. For example:

12
15
27
35
+48

I'd add the 8 and 2 and the two 5s together instead of adding 2+5+7+5+8 in that order. I was a public school kid, so I think I was actually taught this method. I can't say for sure though, as it's been years since then!

So FWIW, I agree with you, onthegomom, that there's nothing wrong with what she's doing as long as it's not getting in her way.

As for the message your considering, I'm less sure. Advocacy is not my strong suit! I would say that asking questions might get better results than telling. But I'm not sure if that's helpful here.

Onthegomom, I don't understand why you feel "compelled" to send a note or what you want to achieve by it. I think as it is it is likely to make the teacher feel patronised. IME the kind of playing with different ways to do sums is not something that is unique to gifted children, it's a normal and perhaps essential part of developing number sense, so it's a bit "off" to write about this as though it's unique to your child.

Is your main concern that they're not seeing what your DS can do? In that case, can you perhaps more neutrally send in stuff he's done recently, maybe without comment, maybe semi-regularly? It's always likely to be more effective to show than tell, I think.

Also, what is it that makes them think your DS is not developmentally ready for multiplication? If you don't understand what they're seeing there, you might want to ask. Getting a sheet of multiplication sums right does not rule out there being some truth in what they say, since understanding multiplication is not all-or-nothing.

An example: my DS learned to do 2-digit by 2-digit multiplication, could sensibly explain what he was doing, seemed to understand it perfectly... and then unlearned it. Refused to do it for weeks, complained and made mistakes that looked like basic conceptual errors (e.g. would multiply the units digits together, and multiply the tens digits together, but not include the other summands) if I tried to press him. Then started to do it again better, and jumped to beyond where he'd been before (e.g. working out areas of circles). I'm aiming to facilitate but not drive his learning (not always easy though!) so as far as possible I stood back and watched this whole process, but it was deeply weird, and I still can't really understand what went on. It must, though, have been in some sense that he understood multiplication so far and no further, and then needed to go backwards to make a leap. Getting to the point finally: if someone had come to me and said just after he'd got 100% on his ALEKS level 4 final assessment that he didn't understand multiplication, I'd have said they were off their rocker, yet there proved to be a sense in which they'd have been right. It's possible that this process that looked mysterious to me would not look mysterious at all to someone who had more knowledge and experience of how mathematical concepts are learned. Perhaps it's worth asking what they mean about your DS, just in case there is some sense in it!

You are absolutely right - ask instead of tell. I don't want to be teaching them that's what makes them upset. This is where I have so much to learn. This is so hard for me despite good intentions.

ColinsMum -
I was not sure the gifted teacher saw this Creative Math as a typical thing. She said she never saw anyone do + or - like this before but he was getting the right answer. I feel like they think he is a less capable Math person becuase he is inventive. I think he is actual very capable he just needed a reality check on what's the quickest or best way to do the Math. He is doing it the fast way now.

Maybe the multipliction issue is something more than I can understand. I am certainly not very knowledgable in Math and how it is learned. I think I will wait on asking about this.

I have been wanting to send a note becuase this has been bugging me for a week. It seems like it is too risky to send a note becuase they might be insulted despite my intentions.

Last year before they did testing and made some accomidations the gifted teacher just said tell him to just hang in there. Well he couldn't and it got bad. I do feel like she wants to help him and appreciates his hard work.

This is very hard. I want to help him but I am only so capable of understanding what their reactions might be. Thanks so much for your input you probally saved me from harming the relationship with the gifted teacher. I sent her a compliment on something new she has done instead today.

RightStart Math also teaches the strategy of adding 9 by adding ten and subtracting one. As someone who has never been able to memorize math facts myself, I have done this as long as I can remember, perhaps someone taught it to me but I don't remember. It seems an elegant strategy to me since calculations are virtually instantaneous.

One thing I'm learning about advocacy through trial and error is to "keep the conversation going." Unfortunately because of the ask vs. tell issue, the note may shut down conversation which defeats the purpose. I would mention to the principal that you'd like to meet to hear more about what they're seeing with his multiplication. This would provide an opportunity to discuss how DS approaches his addition too.

I truthfully didn't think it was a matter of willingness... just that they hadn't learned them, or at least weren't using them in the manner desired by the teacher. (Esp. regarding multiplication.)

My son learned his math facts early on, but on occasion, he still lapses into the most convoluted approach to multiplication imaginable. Yes, he'll ultimately get the right answer, but the "strategy" he employs will crumble when the math gets more complicated.

I suspect that the teachers have seen every creative approach under the sun... but that they have concerns (hopefully based on experience) that the approaches used are not the most efficient or perhaps not the most accurate.

I agree that their independent pushing ahead is a sign that acceleration should be considered. But I think acceleration will be a hard sell if the teacher isn't satisfied with what your child is doing currently.

Dandy -thanks for the clarification.

Acceleration for my DS seems to mean putting a little extra pressure on to do everything just the way school wants from writing one's HW in an assignment notebook to doing the Math their fast way. It feels like any lack of the student's school work self management results to them thinking he may not be mature enough for acceleration opportunities. Some of this may be good to motivate him to care about his self management.