Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Hothousing- did you, didn't you, will you?

Here's a snip of mine from another tread. I'd love to know what you think Hothousing is, and if you did it or didn't and why, and what you've learned:

"hothousing"??

Ah, hot-housing.

First, I'll give my definition of hot-housing. I see hothousing when a parent takes a preschooler (3-4 years old) and starts drilling reading and math facts so that their child will have an "edge" come school time. Hothoused kids are the ones who can perhaps decode CVC material or slightly higher come kindergarten, who have memorized math facts, etc -- all on the parents' instigation, not by following the child's interest. There is no particular love of learning or interest in facts, but just rote memorization. These are the kids who "even out" as all the children are introduced to the coursework.

The lines can get a blurry to ND parents when looking at EG/PG kids. But I think all of us here would know hot-housing if we saw it.

These "hot-housed" kids are the ones that make it so difficult to work with schools, in my (limited) experience -- the school assumes that you are a pushy stage parent who has worked hard to "make her kid smart", and a "control freak" when accommodations aren't given.

As mentioned on the other thread, we are about the farthest thing from hot-housers as they come! The kid could barely write his name when he turned 4. We just bring up topics as they come, if he seems interested. If not, we drop it -- end of story. However, this may change if we can't find a decent education for the kid ...

What's the difference between afterschooling and hothousing?

Our kids picked up sight reading on their own. I didn�t even consider it true reading because they made mistakes. The teacher, who accepted my daughter for early entrance to K, looked at me as if I were a neglectful/distant mother when I downplayed my daughter�s reading ability after her evaluation.

Educational computer games were THE favorite past-time for my kids since they were three (dd) and two (ds) through approximately 4th grade. We did not sit with them and explain what to do in any way. The software was intuitive to the kids and they worked together quite well.

They have always had books, Lego�s, art materials and a backyard at their disposal. We also tried our best to answer their questions. I know they are fortunate, but definitely not �hothoused�.

Afterschool, like homeschooling can follow the child's interest or a set curriculum or fall somewhere on the spectrum. Afterschooling is an activity.

Hothousing is a pejoritive term (that I would like to change to a neutral term) for parents who "push" their children to learn, before the child shows any interest. There is a suggestion that the parent is offering love and attention in exchange for the child's participation in the parent's scheme. There is a whole industry that promises to sell materials and techniques to make a smarter baby/toddler/preschooler. The real research shows that the normal paying attention to a child, talking with a child, and giving the child choices where appropriate actually can make a child smarter and more 'school-ready.'

Of course the term hothousing also is part of the way it's so difficult for U.S. folks to deal with class differences directly. Instead of saying, 'Gee, we interested adults notice that kids from homes with more resource and who have parents with more lesuire and less stress come to school with more skills and ready to learn, as a group, than many kids from families with more stess, less resource in time and money. How do we feel about that? What are we going to do in response to what we see?'

Instead many interested adults will feel more comfortable saying "Bad Middle Class(or higher)parents! You ruin your children's childhoods and Hothouse your children so they can dominate other kids at school, and from then on, in life. How dare these parents have the nerve to insist that their children are 'special' and have special learning needs. They have priviledge and just want more and more."

Of course it does look like that in the U.S. the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting left behind. There is fear and insecurity for many College educated parents. Some parents aren't particularly thoughful of their children. It's actually a pretty new idea that it is the parent's job to be thoughtful of their child's individual needs, and this idea has some drawbacks. It's actually a pretty new idea that anyone has individual needs. For a long time people did what everyone around them was doing, and that was that.

Personally, I think there has to be some kind of balance between "knowing yourself, and being thoughtful of one's needs" and "sucking it up" and being pleased just to get to participate in the larger community. Both perspectives have value. Balance.
((Please don't ask me how I got to here from Hothousing! I sure didn't expect this!))

Smiles,
Trinity

Thanks for the explanation!

No, we didn't hothouse dd. She started reading on her own before she was 4 and had a natural desire to read, write etc so we just followed her lead.

I will say that we work with dd on math that she is not doing in school yet. We do this because she wants to learn more complicated math and her class is still working on early addition/subtraction and fractions. DD absorbs information and masters what she's learned at a very rapid pace and since her school isn't working on more difficult math we do it. All is at her request, though, and if she doesn't want to continue we dont.

Interesting quote.

No, we've never hothoused. Our girls have always been interested in learning. If anything, DH and I wish they'd leave us alone more often, but they always want to do things with us (spelling games, math games, etc.). I don't want to discourage them, but sometimes I just don't have the energy.

Well, if the explanation is as above, I am guilty of hothousing my kids before they entered school.
Let me explain.
I quit work when my daughter was born and Ghost was 2 years old. I was a "full time stay at home mom " for close to 5 years.
Ghost has always been quite a noisy child (put gently), so we needed some good, long down time/quiet activity time when his little sister was sleeping during the day. I did not want him to watch TV, we limited that activity VERY CAREFULY, so I read tons to him but only in my mother's tongue. Well, as you can imagine, I also wanted to take advantage of the fact that one of my children was out of the way (asleep) to do some chores. So after short reading sections, I introduced Ghost to coloring books. But as you remember, at that tender age of 2 or 3 or 4, there is no activity that would occupy them for longer than 10-15 min. There was a need to change activities frequently. Different coloring books were changing into activity books . But funny as it may sound to you now, since I never speak to my children in English, I was always translating the text into my mother's tongue. Then I had an "aha" moment. Why not get him preschool books in my native language? And that is how I began a journey of teaching my son to read in my native language. By the time he hit kindergarten age, he was a fluent reader in both languages, of course only of books at his level (Bob Books, Dr. Seus books etc.)My mother's tngue is very phonetic, so he absolutely had no problems reading phonics books. My daughter followed the same path.
So I guess it was hothousing, because there is no way Ghost at 2.5 years of age would tell me, hey I want to read in two languages. Did my kids enjoy it? Tremendously! Once they started K I stopped teaching them my language, I just made sure that whenever we go to Europe they do not have any English books with them so they have to read in my language :-)
If it wasn't for the hothousing, my kids would not be able to speak and read two languages equally well.

What about music? Would this be hothousing as well?
Both of my kids started formal music lessons before the age of four. Both wanted to do it. The first one because he saw some kids playing and thought it will take him A LESSON to play like that, the second one because her brother was doing it (she actually got her first violin for her second birthday because she was dragging and damaging mine). At first they wanted to practice, but after a few months it became, and is to this day, a chore. I have always made sure they did they daily practice, bribing them when they were little, making sure that their schedules are not hectic right now, as they are older.
So this can also be categorized as hothousing. But I do not think there are many musicians that were practicing their instruments at 13 years old for a couple of hours a day and loving it. Do not get me wrong,they LOVE to play. Practicing is different.
Did you know that Beethoven's father was spanking him as little Ludvig refused to practice :-) We are a different society now, but maybe if it wasn't for that spanking we would not have the 9th Symphony (my personal favorite :-)

Ania,

That sounds lovely.
I disagree that you hothoused. You did notice what would keep your son busy and occupied. If having a pass with crumpled newspaper would have kept him quiet while you did chores, you might have done that - you did what came naturally to you in your situation. I think hothousing can be reserved for parents who "have a plan" for the child, and a "need" for the child to be out of the ordinary. Or for parents who see that their child will have special needs, and want to be sure that the schools will be able to understand that child. I'm not really against hothousing, as long as there is enjoyment for all parties. And there are times when the need for challenge means that it won't be 100% enjoyment.

Trinity

I'm with Trinity. Introducing things to your kids and then seeing what they do isn't hothousing. Finding something to keep them busy and out of your hair isn't hothousing...in fact, it might be the opposite of hothousing! (Certainly it's smart parenting!)

Saying, "You sit down right now and practice your phonics, young lady," when the child wants to do some scribbling or work on a puzzle or play tag is hothousing. The use of flashcards ala the Rick Moranis character in the movie "Parenthood" is the clearest portrayal of hothousing I know of.

The big difference, I think, is whether the effort and interest are child-directed (with parent help and support) or parent-directed (with participation from the child stemming from his/her desire to be rewarded or loved).

It sounds to me like your kids' reading was really more child-directed, Ania. You weren't forcing cooperation, and they loved the reading itself, not just the attention they got from you when they read. Hothoused kids don't LOVE what they do. They may feel compelled to do it, but there's no love for the task itself.

There's my two-cents' worth...

Hi,

I was so against hothousing when DD was small that I think I have actually contributed to her underachievement and have failed to provide the neccessary dosage of chanllenge that DD needs.

Now we do activities after the school and I plan to teach her to read in Spanish (my mother tongue). Of course, if DD says that she rather colours or play with stickers that's fine with me, but I do offer 'academic' activities every day now.

DS will be more 'hothoused', in the same way as we do it now with DD: introduce him to learning activities and see if he is interested and picks them up. Right now is puzzels and shape sorters. He really likes them and is starting to understand how it works.

By the way, Mozart was very heavely hothoused...

And one more question to Ania: which is your mother tongue if I may ask?

This is a really good discussion. This is a huge issue where I live. My son started kindergarten last year and I'd say a 1/3 of the class could read to some degree. Well, clearly 1/3 of the class is not PG. And my son was barely reading. I really felt like a bit of a failure at the time! I didn't hot house my son at all. He was very much a "I'll do what I want to do" preschooler. It is interesting though, that my son now reads at a 5th-6th grade level, and these kids that were so ahead the first months of K are now perhaps reading more at the 2nd grade level (there are a couple that may be more gifted). It just doesn't pay to hot house a preschooler!

I did start my son in piano at 5. He was asking to start. He's still going and he is doing great. We never had early reader books in the house until he was in K (he was more interested in listening to chapter books). And he played with numbers for fun. We introduced him to mathematical concepts through him asking questions. Most recently it's square roots. My son went to a very non-academic, fun preschool. GT issues were the last thing on my mind for him. Actually, piano was the first glimpse I saw of GT in him. He cranked through repotoire twice as fast as other students with our teacher.

DD3 is actually much more interested in "academics" than my son was at 3. She actually tries to read, write, and do what DS is up to. And now she is asking to take violin lessons. I don't think I'm up for that quite yet. Maybe at 4. I feel like we're very child driven.

I feel a badly for kids who have academics shoved down their throats. They all learn it when they're ready. I want my kids to definitely be kids! Even if their not ND.

And Ania - I don't think you're a hothouser in the least!

Most 4 year olds don't demand violin lessons. Mine did. People may assume I "hot house" because they don't think 4 year olds seriously demand violin lessons.
I don't blame them for thinking that, but it's not really my problem.
It is a problem when the teacher at school thinks I am doing this hot house thing to my children.
But, after some time, they realize I'm not, because they see when the kids don't know something and then how quickly they learn it for themselves, eventually.

Take heart Mia and all others accused of hot housing. The people that are important in your child's life will "get it" eventually.
This is a good thread!

Incog

Amen, sister!

I think pressure is also key to hothousing. Are you pressuring your kids? Are you withholding something important to them (love, attention, playtime, etc.) if they don't "play ball" with you and work hard at your particular hobby-horse (to mix my metaphors...)?

If not, I don't think it's hothousing.

Oh, and I think there's a difference between hothousing and helping a kid to catch up in a subject they're behind in. Hothousing is about making your kid more impressive to others; helping a kid to work at an appropriate level for her/his ability is good parenting.

IMHO...

Yeah, again, I think that's working the system rather than hothousing, Dottie. It just doesn't have the requisite intent for hothousing, you know? Trying to get your kid seen for what he is is different than trying to TURN your kid INTO something he isn't.

I would think it would affect achievement scores to a point. Certainly there is going to come a time when a kid says "Enough!" and rebels. A lot of damage can be done over the course of those years, and it may not really show until it's bad!

A well-respected local expert who works with SENG gave a presentation about perfectionism, and I asked him if ND kids under parental pressure ever demonstrate that nutty wig-out behavior of GT kids that comes of intense frustration with not being able to match externally what they envision in their minds. (I asked to help another woman, who was wondering if her 4yo child, who was going through some intense perfectionist moments, was gifted or not.)

He said that a gifted kid who is a perfectionist usually gets frustrated and wigs out at a young age--preschool or before--whereas a kid under intense parental pressure to be perfect usually sticks with it until high school age before cracking. Until puberty, the pressured ND kids want the parental approval. But when they are ready to rebel, look out! Then they crack HARD!

YMMV by a mile, naturally, and certainly some GT kids never experience perfectionism at all. But it struck me as interesting at the time and seems germane to the conversation now...

Here's another wrinkle:

I'm home schooling, as are some others here, I know. Even more people here are afterschooling. How do you make sure you're enriching and not hothousing?

Some days I feel like we're being really lazy and irresponsible about his education, while other days I feel like I have the whip out on the kid. (Not literally, of course!) So how do you tell if you're balancing?

Kriston, I've been wondering the same thing. But I think it's like this: some kids need to be pushed to try things more than others. For instance, my son is reluctant to try something that he doesn't feel he has mastered (perfectionism.) I feel that it is important for him to experience the process of not knowing how to do something, working at it even if it doesn't come easily and finally achieving mastery. This is what really builds his self-confidence.

Here's an example of what I see with him: His K class doesn't require any writing beyond single letters and one's own name. I started requiring him to write one or two sentences a day at homework time. At first, he did not want to do it and I really had to sit there and help him with every word. Now, one week later, he wants to do it by himself, comes up with his own topics for writing and says things like, "I can write pretty well on my own, can't I!"

So, for him, I see it as good parenting to insist that he work at things that he thinks are "too hard" because otherwise he would just keep avoiding those things.

When I think of hothousing, I think of people showing word and number flashcards to infants or doing other developmentally inappropriate things. If I see that my son is developmentally ready to write sentences, why shouldn't I encourage him to do that--even if the school is not?

Why is it ok for parents of ND kids to encourage their development and not for parents of GT kids? It seems like a kind of double standard... I have heard teachers complain about parents of kids who are behind not spending time working with the kids. In DS' K class, the teacher even has some parents sign a contract that they will work with their child for 15 min/day on number recognition and the parents have to turn in a sheet with the days initialed. So why is it hothousing for me to work with DS on a Singapore math workbook for 15 min/day?

Wow - Thanks for all the responses.

After reading them, I feel more strongly than ever that 'hothouse parents' is being used as a code for 'bad parent.' An easy way to attack folks who like to learn.

Like Isa, if I wasn't frightened off of 'playing with learning' with my DS when he was preschool/early elementary age, he would be more recognisable to the school as a kid who needed accomidation.

So I'm glad that we are talking about the various realities behind the lables, and figuring out what we ourselves believe.

Kids who are underchallenged are going to need a push, and it won't be all pleasant. Kids who are 2E are going to need more drill, more thoughtful help - they just do.

I really appreciate everyone's comments.
Trinity

I'm going to preface this by reminding everyone that we have a *ridiculous* group of parents and kids. Our experiences are not the norm.

I do think that "hot-housing" is a valid term. I don't mean "bad parent." It's just not the choice I'd make, and not the way I choose to raise my child -- and we obviously all do what we think is best for our kids However, I'm starting to realize we should have worked with ds more!

No, I'm not fond of hot-housing, because it can't be good for a kid -- all that play time missed! And for what? Peers "catch up" when they learn to read, add, etc., and a preschooler never gets back that time to learn through free exploration.

However, I think one difference is that for most of our kids, the learning *is* play in their eyes. Not "play is learning," because that's obviously true. But for this kind of kid, learning is often the most fun thing you could be doing. So when we teach, we're often playing -- in a way that ND children typically don't "play." A PG 4-year-old could "play" by reading Shakespeare while the child next to her is having just as much fun and learning just as much at his own rate -- playing with blocks.

When I say "hot-housing," I mean an artificial situation -- one enforced on the child, and one in which they want no part or could care less. It's more like drilling/memorizing than teaching/learning. And this isn't for home-schoolers or after-schoolers, at least not in my mind. It is, I suppose, the difference in what the parent wants to get out of it. Is the only goal that the child get into the GT program with the 95th percentile cut-off? Or is that a partial goal, and the real benefit of following a child's interests and expanding on them? *That*, I think, is key.

I can't explain it. But I know it when I see it. Can each of you think of a parent who you'd consider a "hot-houser? I know I have -- and then I've known parents who guide and help and teach rather than pull.

And I don't think you can hot-house a high IQ score. Achievement, maybe. But not IQ.

Actually, Trinity, I didn't really get this at all from the discussion. I define hothouse parents as the ones who are *using* their children's accomplishments to validate them and to accumulate status and that is not what I am doing and I don't think that's what you are doing, or, what any of us are doing.

I do think there are real hothouse parents who are grooming their kids for the best private schools from preschool on through Harvard and that the accomplishments of their kids are part of their social status goals. I know these parents and I've seen the kids and it really is not pretty. I don't blame educators who see these kids from being angry at the parents who are using their kids as a means to an end for themselves.

We know that this is not what we are doing with our kids, but until an educator knows us and our kids, I am not surprised that they might actually get confused about what is happening, because, honestly, there are probably more hothoused kids than HG+ kids in the average upper-middle class district! Because we are in a lower-middle to lower class district, there aren't many hothoused kids in public school and so I think I was spared false accusations, but I also made it a point to be known at the school as someone who helped out and cared about ALL the kids.

I remember talking to one of the teachers who had come to public school from an elite private school and she said that she left the private school because she got tired of all those pushy parents. I had worked a lot with her through the year to make sure DS's needs were met, so I asked her if she put me in that group and she just laughed at me because to her the difference was obvious. Some teachers just take more time to see the difference.

Ooh, yes, acs: status for the parents! Good point! I think that's key, too!

I'm not sure I agree with this last sentence, Mia, though I certainly agree with your larger point that it's all about the parents' intent. I do think it is entirely possible to be a home-schooling or after-schooling parent and practice hothousing, too. If anything, you have more opportunity and motivation to do it when your child relies on you for learning opportunities more than a traditional school. I know I sometimes feel like people think I'm a nut for home schooling, so I certainly feel pressure to have DS6 demonstrate success to the world at large. I don't think that's playing out in our school time--and hopefully the fact that I'm conscious of the issue means that it really isn't!--but it is on my mind.

Seriously, I worry. But we probably only do "real school" for 10-12 hours per week, tops. (Often less.) And DS6 tends to be easily distracted when faced with a challenge. (Teachers and the the psychologist who tested him have all noted this tendency in DS6. It's hard to miss!) Don't I need to push a little when his attention is wandering? They would in a traditional school setting, right? But balancing enough push and not too much is a daily dilemma for me personally.

And how do you tell the difference between a kid who likes the challenge and the one who just says he does to get your approval? Obviously I think DS6 likes what we're doing, and he's progressing quickly through the material. I check in with him often to make sure he's happy. He says he is. Heck, he's campaigning to home school again next year! But I worry nonetheless...

I'm coming to the conclusion that it's all about intent. And even that's tricky, because obviously both kinds of parents (hothousing and non-hothousing) want what's best for their kids. It's just that (IMHO...) hothousing parents are sort of missing the forest for the trees, if that makes any sense. They're thinking so much about the future that they're missing the child's present-day needs. And they're also prioritizing social status, which is their own want and isn't relevant to the child at all.

I think you're right, Trinity, that when teachers "accuse" one of us of being hothousing parents, they mean that we're pushy "stage moms." I think the assumption is that we're hurting the kids. It seems to me to be just another retread of the "When does the kid get to play?" thing, a question that's patently irrelevant to these kids, as Mia and others have already noted here.

Sounds like a lot of us think the hot-housers may be on to something ...? At least, several of us seem to be thinking we should have engaged in more "hot-house-y" standard activities, except at our own children's levels. That's an interesting thought ...

And no, younger children just have the opportunity to pick more up, through exposure. So I wouldn't call them hot-housed when they happen to learn things along with a sibling.

Yep, *that's* what I'm trying to say, Kriston. You just wrote it better and more succinctly!

Here is how I would delineate the parent categories at our school:

The obnoxious pushy parent, another pejorative term used by teachers. Since my husband and I are the only ones, that I know of, actively advocating for more challenge for our student at an already highly achieving school, I guess we�d fit the bill in the opinion of many teachers.

The hot-house parents at our school are the ones who are way overly invested in helping their children with their projects. My son recently had to work with a kid whose dad inserted himself as the third person for their project, shot down my son�s ideas, set the direction and worked on the assignment with ds and his non-assertive son. Oddly, a good number of teachers seem oblivious to this form of hot-housing.

Aside from the majority of parents, who are perfectly satisfied with the status quos (which we are for our daughter), there is also a large population of �teacher suck-up parents� at our school. These come in two forms; the generous donor parents and the constant presence in the school. The latter are usually moms and often gossip with the worst teachers, who LOVE them, but are a source of annoyance to the better teachers and many other �main-stream� parents.

Guilty as charged ! Probably also INCREDIBLE BRAGGER, since I made sure all new 7th grade teachers new exactly what Ghost is capable of and are challenging him appropriately. I can imagine the comments in the teacher's lounge the day after P/T conferences.

I also try to talk to other parents and ask them what they think about certain "problems" at the school, but most, or should I say all of them, DON'T CARE

A couple of weeks ago I got a phone call from a mom that I spoke to one month into the school year, about LA teacher that was reading to 7th graders for most of the class time, everyday. She did not see the problem at that time! Her son was happy (sure, he had nothing to do in that class), and that was important.
But two weeks ago she realized that something was wrong. She was asking me what I was able to acomplish. Well, I told her, but I was so mad at her for not being there with me , at the front of the line, two months ago. I was the only soul fighting for change! Typical teacher suck-up parent !

Ugh, apathy! Hate it!

Though one of the reasons we're out of the school is that I'm not at all good with advocacy. I'm too pushy, too. But in my case, it backfires. Not good.

Still, I'd take pushy parent over apathetic parent any day of the week!

Please let me clarify my last post, as I may have offended some school volunteers here, which was not my intent. I volunteer at least once per month at our school and I used to volunteer quite a bit more when the kids were in the lower grades. Ania, I would be so grateful for a parent like you who spearheads a program, such as instituting and helping with ALEKS to provide extra challenge for the kids who need it. You all are not the type of parents I was referring to.

The fine line, as for hot-house parent versus supportive parent, exists also between the suck-up parent and the helpful parent.

I think you can see the effects of hothousing in kids who are hothoused. I know several college professors who have kids crying and desperate in their offices: "my dad will kill me if I don't get into medical school/get straight A's/make the basketball team etc" Some have attempted suicide when they see they are failing. For many of these kids, the expectations are not especially realistic or what the kid actually wants for him/herself (but, as I said earlier, are the parents using their children to gain status or validation). Having high expectations for you child is one thing, but pushing to them past what is realistic and not listening to who your child is, that's the real problem.

I actually wonder if some parents are thought to be hothousing simply because these GT kids are so high. Maybe its easier to think that its the parents pushing than the fact that the child is actually highly gifted? Know what I mean?

Hi Tammy,
I suspect that in some districts that hothousers are a dime a dozen and way more common than HG+ kids. It seems quite natural to me that educators in those districts would leap to the conclusion that a high achieving child had been hothoused. But we know better, and I think in many cases we can show them that our kids are "hothousing" themselves!

When I wrote "typical teacher suck-up parent" I meant the other mom! Not me!

I'm sure you are correct Tammy. My son was quite "invisible" to many of the School Folks at his old school. I even made up a story in my mind that his giftedness was like a pair of huge invisable wings, that some teachers couldn't see. All they could detect was the way those invisible wings knocked things over and made DS wobble when he walked. Obviously there was almost no place to actually fly during the school day. Even his parents were mostly concerned that he hold his wings politely in and not knock over the other children. The wings would take care of themselves until the wonderful day when he could use them, right?

Well - things didn't turn out that way, and we got quite an education.


We definitly need a word for 'gifted blindness' that is quite normal in this culture, perhaps that for another thread?

Smiles,
Trinity

You all need to stop posting such provocative, funny, relatable posts or I will never get offline and do anything productive.

:0

^^ Same sentiment here. I should be cleaning my laundry room, instead I am online. If only my kids new...LOL...I think they are suspecting...

Oh, I know. Ania, I was referring to your EPGY Language Arts post which I read immediately after I posted mine.

This is a very interesting topic. I guess I am guilty of "hot housing" my second child because he had to test to get into the magnet school I have my older child in and I worked with him on a variety of things to get him ready for the test. I just couldn't have my kids at 2 different schools!!! :-) But I also wonder if I could have taught him those things if he wasn't capable of learning them. Just because you work with a kid on some things doesn't mean they will understand or retain those things.

Other than that I am definitely not a "hot houser". My kids have no interest in things other than what they have an interest in. My DS9 became obsessed with airplanes and could tell you everything about how they worked and about all the different kinds, when he was 3 so I went with this interest and we read books, watched shows, etc. but that was totally driven by him. I tried to get my kids interested in more "academic" type things when they were young but they just weren't into it so I never pushed. I've always just tried to go with their interests. With my DS6 we are currently doing a Magic School Bus science kit and he is loving it!!! But again, it was his idea. He just loves those things.

One thing I struggle with is knowing when to push. If I am certain my child is capable of doing more but he isn't interested in doing more, then do I push?? I don't because I don't want the conflict from pushing when there is no interest. But, sometimes you do have to push because they do have to do things they don't always like doing. This is the part that I think is difficult. Knowing when to push and when to back off.

Sometimes we "push" to get over a hump--"this is too hard--I can't do it." when I *know* he can do it. But then after a limited period time, he is over the hump and then I stop pushing. Hothousing to me is when you never let up and never stop to reevaluate what you are doing and why.

Maybe that's the answer to my question: because I worry that I'm pushing too much and I analyze my motives for pushing, perhpas it means I'm not pushing "wrong."

It at least makes me feel better!

acs - I think you hit it on the mark. I guess that is why I don't push those things that don't have to be done (unlike homework which does have to be done) because what would be my motive??? My ultimate goal for my children is for them to be happy, well adjusted people, so why force them to do things they don't have to, don't need to, and don't want to just because I feel like they have the ability to do it. I think you're right, motive is really a lot of what it boils down to.

One last post and I am off to my laundry room...


We are past that stage here. Music helped.
When my kids were younger, I used to reward them for practicing on their violins. Any Suzuki parent out there knows what I am talking about. You are on you knees in front of your 4 year old, pretending that you love that scratching sound that is supposed to be Bach's minuet. You give them M&M or a penny for each piece they play. Thankfully practice time at that level is only about 15/20 min a day. But your kid is learning that practice is needed in order to progress. Athletes don't have a problem with this either, but when it comes to practicing academics it is suddenly a "poor child with a pushy parent".
My S hapens to be quite good at math. He likes competitions. He needs to practice in order to become better. Does he like math - yes, but practicing tediously? - he would rather play a computer game. He is old enough to know that practice is making him better, but is not mature enough yet to see a good placement in a competition as his only reward. So we reward him for practicing. Ghost does a lot of math. Two math circles - one easier, one very challenging. When the one close to our house opened, he still wanted to stick with the tough one , that is one hour away. I drive him there once a week. He works on Algebra II independently at school during math class. Assigns himslef homework. He takes a challenging class at AoPS. No reward for that, and he wants to continue.
AoPS posts weekly practice problems. And that is where bribing comes into play. We pay him $1 per problem. Sometimes he gets it after 5 minutes, sometimes he spends 20 minutes and still does not have an answer. He loves it and we love it. Yesterday he went online late into the evening. He needed $5 for a gift exchange at Boy Scouts. He pays his monthly Boy Scout dues ($10) out of that money. Currently he is saving like crazy for an I-Pod.
We do not have a problem with that approach.

Acs, I think you stated that brilliantly. There is a difference between having high expectations but honoring your child's personality and strengths and using your child as a vehicle for status.

So here is another definition of hot-housing:

If I do it, then it is 'helping the development of my kid', but if the other parent does it, then it is 'hot-housing'.

Unfortunately, I do believe that we are more often than not, in the position of the 'other parent' ...

I agree with Tammiane that it is probably due to the fact that GT children can often accomplish things that are out of the ordinary and people of ND kids are reluctant to believe that other's children are two-three sigma beyond average.

I asked my hubby and he told me that for him hot-housing starts when the child is showing sign of distress.

Ania - my son takes suzuki piano and I know EXACTLY what you are talking about! He wanted to take piano and started as a preschooler. It has taught him a lot about a discipline, and even though it comes to him very easily he still needs to practice daily to get continued results. We still use little bribes and games when we practice (he's 7 - 1st grade). But it so obvious he loves the results. When we go to anyone's house with a piano, he's usually performing with minutes (whether we'd like him to or not). It's actually an area where it's socially "ok" to show off a bit. He regularly sits down and practices his favorite songs independantly or composes or figures out songs he's heard.

We have done Suzuki violin since DS was 5. It is not an area of natural talent and there has been a lot of bribing, cajoling, and, quite honestly, screaming over the past 7 years. We chose this because DS's fine motor skills were a little behind and his musical skills pretty average. We wanted to give him both the gifts of music and of really struggling at something (before college) and I think it has really worked. Since DS turned 11, we have had much nicer practice sessions and he wants to keep going (we finally gave him the option to stop when he started middle school and finished book 3). A few weeks ago he was asked to play a the funeral of a family friend. He did a beautiful job and was so glad that he had something to offer to this family. WOW. I know, now, that he *gets* that hard work can pay off in big ways.

What a great story of hard work (on both your DS's part and yours!).

I have worked with my kids, more as our "quality time" together than anything. I have read to them endlessly (some books I didn't have to look at the words; they were committed to memory), and still do to my 6 and (less frequently) 9 yr olds.

I try to follow their lead. We have gone through obsessions with dinosaurs, fighter jets, board games, crafts/art, cooking, sewing, building things (gliders, trebuchets, etc.), robots, math, music...I can barely keep up. I go to the library and get every book out there, stores to buy supplies, set up areas to work,arrange lessons, transport, google internet resources and suppliers. We've done online courses (at their request), summer institutes, camps. I'm definitely too tired for anything but reacting to what they are interested in, especially these days. BUT, when they were preschool, I did buy them workbooks and we'd play alphabet bingo and count money, more for entertainment than forced drills.

My kids know I value knowledge and achievement and expect a lot from them. I worry that they are too stressed by our expectations, but it seems like people in this community are lazy and whine when they have a little homework. I don't want them to be influenced by their classmates who "blow off" studying for a test to go to the basketball game, or all talk about how they failed their math test.

Funny Cym that you should mention that.
When my kids were in private school, there was hardly any homework. Still I did hear lots of parents complaining about huge amounts of it. Go figure...

Now my kids do have quite a bit of homework, but it is a good homework. Daily math exercises, weekly essays, spelling words etc. They are busy, some days (Thursdays!!!) more than I would like them to be, but they have to make an effort to complete it.
H and I just got back from a concert (Turtle Island Quartet) and both kids were still up polishing their essays. It is Thursday!

I've been meaning to reply to this one for quite some time, but like so much else, didn't get around to it until now. So finally, I'm posting my public thank you to Grinity and to so many of you for educating me on how to better educate DS7.

When I first read this thread long ago, I was anti-hothousing. I did nothing, other than answer DS's many questions, which I suppose was hothousing in a way, as those answers took us to very advanced levels of whatever he was interested in (and there was a long string of interests). But this year, I realized that he hadn't learned anything new and that he is not at all challenged in school (although, to be fair, his reading, writing and attitude have improved - which is huge and our goal for the year). So I enrolled him in both math and language arts distance learning programs, originally just to keep his options open were he to return to private school (which we decided against, at least for now).

And it's working out. He complains a bit about the EPGY that it's boring (and it is), but it has helped his self-esteem and self-confidence. And Grinity's right, sometimes the GT kids aren't so obvious to the teachers when they're just looking at reading and writing. I loved the look on his teachers faces when I brought in the math he was doing at home. Of course, I realize we'll have a king-sized problem next year, but for now, it's the right thing to do. In fact, I think school gets in the way of his education. If he didn't have to spend all day in school, he'd be flying.

So thanks, Grinity, for recommending it. I never would have done the extra work with him, saying I'm not one of those parents, and I don't want to push him. It never occurred to me that it would be good for him, and that he'd even enjoy it. I also realize that to date almost everything he knows he's learned outside of school, and there's no reason to think that will change anytime soon.

PS- I know there's nothing he'd like better than being homeschooled. I'm just not that brave... yet.

Well, *I'D* argue that you're not hothousing, so you're still not one of "those parents." <chuckle> Following your child's interests to make him happy doesn't count as hothousing in my book.

Regardless, I'm glad it's working out. I'm happy that your DS is getting what he needs. Now if you can just capture that learning for DYS...

<grin>

I love what you've written and I feel the exact same way. It's sad when school gets in the way of real love of learning! And there are just some kid's personalities who'd lend themselves well to homeschool. My DS7 is one. Our DD3 on the other hand - not so sure. She loves the structure and regularity of preschool and already talks about kindergarten like it's the ultimate goal.

I'm glad this is working out for you and your son! Sounds like a really great set up. And it'll be interesting to see how the king size problem plays itself out in the fall.

QUESTIONS,
I really appreciate your post. I have begun to realize that we are going to have to do more �hot-housing� also. For one, something has to be done to make up for the lack of writing instruction for the last two years of my daughter�s education. Their school does give a lot of homework, so I feel that I am some �stage-mom� type character if I add on more. I wish I could pick and choose the classes to send them to and which to do at home.

I am also realizing that many opportunities are available to kids who do really well on these above level �competitions�. We have only considered them practice for when it will count, but if they concentrate some effort on tackling these difficult tests, they will actually learn faster in the process. I make them practice for their band competitions (two firsts today, BTW, which do not mean the first place), why not make them spend more time on ALEKS to get a higher math score? I�m not interested in getting them through school any faster at this point, but it doesn�t hurt to offer a preview of what they will learn in HS and college. Unfortunately, the high schools here in our immediate area don�t even offer AP classes of any type, only honors.

I know there are some kids who haven�t had any type of advanced instruction, yet still blow the top off an above level test, however, most do get advanced instruction, some a great deal, either at home or at school. I have to stop thinking of this as �hot-housing� and think of it as more of �talent-development� as the Davidson Institute refers to it.

I'm not going to 'hothouse', I'm jut going to let the kid watch all the TV he wants, play video games all he wants, and I might as well let him choose what he wants to eat(even if it's always candy), go to bed when he wants, after all, let him be a kid, right?

The reason so many parents are homeschooling is because they know the school's 'one size fits all' approach does not fit all. So if 'hothousing' is another term for 'afterschooling', 'homeschooling', or even 'parenting', then I really am guilty of 'hothousing'.

"I'm not going to 'hothouse', I'm jut going to let the kid watch all the TV he wants, play video games all he wants, and I might as well let him choose what he wants to eat(even if it's always candy), go to bed when he wants, after all, let him be a kid, right?"

Actually, I can�t decide between these two choices either!

Hahaha, I want to add in the detail that prompted me to write that. I think 'hothousing' has a negative connotation. But if a parent is not spending time nurturing & teaching a child, (which are things a parent would do while 'hothousing') then what are they doing? I have a friend who's stepgrandkids are allowed to run wild, watch TV or play video games all night because his stepdaughter basically runs wild. How sad is that, to see children with no good adult role model, no one to take them to museums, parks, zoos, or even teach them basic life skills?
I don't know the intelligence level of the children I just mentioned, but chances are these children will not graduate high school, and their mother will be one who badmouths parents who 'hothouse' their children. It's a crazy, mixed up world when parents who care for their childs physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual needs are made to think it is a bad thing.

I have always felt that DH and I are the ones who are responsible for our child's education. Even though we send him to public school, I don't see PS as the ones who are, in the end, responsible. I use PS to teach DS things that I cannot or do not want to teach him. But I am always looking for gaps and ways to fill those gaps--music, sports, religion, philosophy, foreign languages, history, geography, science, and free play are a few gaps we've addressed. What I tell my friends (at least the ones who look like they can handle the joke): I do homeschool--I just use public school as PART of the curriculum!

I absolutely believe parents are the ones responsible for the child's education - whether that child is GT or not.

I think the bad connotation with hothousing (and I think this has been mentioned by someone before) is with the picture of a parent forcing learning down a child's throat - such as with flashcards at a very early age - and with the child miserable all the time and not interested. Taking them to museums, parks, etc. isn't what I think of as hothousing in the negative connotation. That is just doing what a responsible parent does.

Supplementing with things that your child is interested in or with things that they are not getting at school, is not pushing at all in my opinion and should be done. questions stated "I never would have done the extra work with him, saying I'm not one of those parents, and I don't want to push him. It never occurred to me that it would be good for him, and that he'd even enjoy it." delbows said "something has to be done to make up for the lack of writing instruction for the last two years of my daughter�s education." Neither of these is hothousing in my opinion at all. That is supplementing when supplementing needs to be done.

And sure, sometimes your kid has to do something they don't want to do (i.e. boring homework ) and they have to do it. But trying to force your child into being a little genius when they aren't interested and don't need to do the work and really aren't capable of doing the work is when I see the problem (and thus the negative connotation).

Total hands off parenting isn't good for any kid. But neither is being forced to live up to an expectation that is just impossible for the child to live up to. That is the picture I get when I think of "hothousing". And I seriously doubt anyone on this board is doing any such thing.

I completely agree with every word, EandCMom. To me, if the kid is happier after you work with him/her, it's not hothousing.

Is it about your prestige or about their emotional well-being (because not learning is boring them silly)? The former is hothousing. The latter is good parenting!

Thanks Questions. I'm so pleased that you didn't step in to the same pile of BS that I did - or that you were able to step out of it fast enough due to my encouragement. But the time I figured out the 'what was up' with DS11, too much was stacked against me being the one to give him the 'balanced push,' my word for afterschooling that isn't 100% child led.

I hope that next years problems shrink in size as your DS gets closer and closer to next year. The more of himself he gets to show, the less difficult it will be for all the caring adults to figure out some workable alternative. As for homeschooling, you can always do a trial run over the summer.

I have a dear friend who's homeschooled children are in HS and College now. I asked her once if she though I was in danger of quiting the 9-5 job and homeschooling. She said to me that the essence of homeschooling is when the parents take direct responsibility for the child's education, and the details of where the child learns are besides the point. She did say that she saw that in me. I felt honored.

I started the hothouse thread, not because I thought that any of us were in danger of engaging in educating our children for our own selfish needs, but because I knew that there must be others out there like myself, who lived in dread of being accused of hothousing, who, like me, allowed their natural curiousity about 'who is this kid and what do they need' to be blunted due to hopes that they wouldn't be accused of hothousing, or making their child 'different.'

I'm glad I started to look at it, because some interesting info shook out of it!
Grinity

I'd like to add one more thing about forcing a child to learn. Look at other cultures where academic achievement is expected. Those parents are applauded for pushing their children to the maximum. I see it in the people I work with, especially those who immigrated to the USA as adults.

Not all kids can or will excel, but they certainly will learn more than if the parent never pushed. Are these the kids who "all level out around 3rd grade"? Maybe, but if they do all level out around the 3rd grade then why do so many in academia push early exposure to reading? Why not just wait until 2nd or 3rd grade?

This is a great dialogue. What an ugly expression "hothousing" for responsible and attentive parenting. Teachers are always complaining that the schools are being responsible for more and more "parenting" (social, emotional, sex-ed--from another thread, meals--we have free breakfast & lunch, afterschool care, school-based medical clinics, etc.) Oops, I forgot to mention basic academic education! There's hardly anything left up to the "adults" who make these babies. The teacher's issue is that how can they possibly attend to the specific or more specialized academic needs of kids? We're just doing what we should.

I'm surprised at the level of "hot housing" in some of the ELL kids at our schools! My son has had 3 kids the last 2 years that are the absolute top of their classes and english is not their first language. 2 from Korea, 1 from India. In this case, these kid's parents were/are studying for a doctorate at the local University. So they are probably very gifted as well. But I would see these families at the local library working with their kids a lot. My son was great friends with 2 of these boys last year, but they both left when their parents were done with their studies.

I would love to do more with DS7. We practice piano before school (which I guess is kind of hot housing too), but by the time he gets home from school, it's 4 to 4:30. We eat, take a bath, do some reading (he does read on his own at least an hour a day). It's bed time!

A welcome benefit of homeschooling: more time!

I just have to say that although, I also hear educators lament over the fact that they are expected to �do� so much more than teach, I have yet to see a teacher �do� any additional duty outside their classroom (without additional pay). There is certainly a large paid staff other than teachers that are responsible for all the extras such as social work, free breakfast and lunch, after care and discipline. This argument is a well used but weak explanation as to why teachers don�t provide an appropriately challenging education to every child.

At least this is the case in the "good" districts around here.

Yes! I'm actually getting somewhat excited about the possibility. And so is DH (who was dead set against homeschooling a few short months ago).

I do love the easy nature of most of our days. It makes it a lot easier to do those extracurriculars that matter without feeling like we have to all be miserable to get there.

It's a much more laid-back existence when you're not a slave to the almighty clock.

I heard this story on the importance of unstructured time. It reminded me of how hard it is to find a balance for our children.
Maybe when we cross the line and take away the unstructured time, that's when it's bad hothousing.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19212514

acs - I think that unstructured time is extremely important and bad hothousing definitely involves taking away that time. I also think alot of bad hothousing is when the child's accomplishment is for the parents to be able to preen over and not for the welfare and benefit of the child. My kids go to a VERY competitive accelerated magnet and some of the parents want to play the game of who's at what level (I do not play) and usually it is so they can brag or whatnot and really has nothing to do with their kid. It has to do with them. At least that has been my experience with some people.

EandCmom - your accelerated magnet sounds like our public GT magnet. Some of the parents act like their kids are attending Harvard at 6, which is a big turn off for both DH and I. I'm starting to think it's karmic we "lost" the lottery to get in there. I do think it's all about the parents. The kids could care less generally.

All 4 of us absolutely love any and all unstructured time we have.

kimck - I know, it is ridiculous how competitive people can be about these things. Most of the people aren't that bad but there is one woman who is determined that her children are the absolute best at everything. She's become kind of a joke to the rest of us (that's bad isn't it?). When my DS was testing for the gifted program I mentioned something to her about it, as I assumed her brilliant ones must be in the program, and she had NEVER even heard of it. Made me realize things aren't always as they are presented to you.

But to be honest, this is a small minority of the parents there and I generally just stay away. I'm not into the whole competition thing and I hang out with the ones who don't care about that kind of stuff either.

Amen, sisters! I hate that nonsense.

I think *all* kids are great! Really, they just are. They're fun and unpretentious and entertaining and funny. Why can't people celebrate all of them for who they are and stop turning them into contestants in some infernal horserace?

Stepping off my soapbox...

I am not sure where hot housing begins and ends these days. We go to the library and choose books and videos that could be considered "hot housing". Like Ancient Civilations, or the Wildlife Conservation Society "I Can Read" books. (we are talking for a 3 year old)

She likes them and wants to read or see them over and over. We also go to the Musuem of Natural History and the Hall of Science. We go to the Very Young People's Concerts that the Philharmonic puts on. She watches the ballet of Peter and the Wolf instead of Clifford the Dog. Maybe Clifford is a good show, it somehow doesn't appeal to me.

So is this hothousing a 3 year old? I think we have options to get puzzles, etc. and expect more from our children. Especially when they do show exceptional capabilities.

When she asks me how many subway stops, I answer 5 and mention we are at the third and she calculates there are 2 left, is that hot housing? Her preschool friend's mother does it and her child is not what I would call gifted and the parent intends to send to general education, so is she hot housing also, despite not worrying about GT programs?

When I was little, we had cast off dresses and shoes from our mothers for dress up. My daughter and friends have Disney princess gowns with matching shoes. She has a Cinderella computer and I got her a small mouse for a cast off laptop because she does all those pbskids games. These are mazes and spelling games. Is that hot housing?

I think it is the nature of today's environment. Last week was holiday week from preschool. We went to Rocking Horse Ranch and my DD3 rodes horses, skied, played in the bouncy tent, swam every afternoon. No puzzles, just bonfires and roasted marshmallows. We do not have that naturally and pay for a lot for it, city living. In April I booked a week Land/Sea Disney package. Just dinner with princesses and Mickey and pretending to be a pirate with Captain Hook.

Just like we have the Internet and expect instaneous responses and information, our children are growing up in an environment where hot housing is how we live.

Ren

Just thought this could stand being bumped -- it's certainly my definition of hot-housing. If the child's enjoying it, it's probably not hot-housing. Hot-housing implies parent-mandated, regardless of the child's interest level, for the parents' own satisfaction.

Ditto that, Mia.

I think we're getting hothousing--which is pushy parenting, not child-led--confused with child-led learning and enrichment, which is mostly what these kids want >and< need.

Hothousing is what gives us a bad name. People assume it's what we're doing with our kids because it's what they'd *have* to do with their kids to get them to where our kids choose to be/can't help but be.

Following the lead of your children is, by definition, NEVER hothousing, in my book. Museum trips to broaden horizons--especially if you enjoy museums yourself--isn't hothousing, unless you force the kids to memorize the names of the artists while you're there or something nutty like that.

Personally, I'd prefer to keep hothousing as a term separate and distinct from other forms of teaching and enrichment because I think we need that specificity sometimes. Case in point: DS6 is having trouble with his times tables. I wondered if I should hothouse him to get them down, even if it's not child-led and he doesn't enjoy it? We could even use flash cards to drill him! It would help him in the long run, but it would not be something he'd choose and it might be something he's not developmentally ready for that I'd be pushing him to do.

Casting it in that light made me realize that I really had to take another approach, so it helped me. If I thought ALL teaching was hothousing, that wouldn't have helped me to decide .

This is a long-winded plea for specificity of language, I guess!

Hi, Ren,

I remember seeing you mention the Philarmonic Young People's Concerts. My mother used to drive all of us in to see those, and the only one I liked was Peter and the Wolf, LOL! So much for my tastes... Frankly, I probably would have preferred Clifford.

Meanwhile, if we lived in NYC now, I would sign DS up for wonderful after-school science activities at the AMNH. There are definitely a lot of pluses to living in NYC.

Enjoy!

Thanks Mia. Great definition by EandCmom (I just realized - E and C are actually my kid's initials too!).

I think you can tell if you're hothousing if your kids seem stressed or overwhelmed by anything you're doing. I like the phrase "child led".

And Kriston - you are an amazing homeschool teacher since you're obviously very sensitive to what your DS seems ready for and what approach may work best for him! Clearly not hothousing!

Huh, I would say the subway stop math was child-led. The child asked a question, and Wren answered it in a creative way that made the child think.

Regardless, I agree with you completely that I would not call this hothousing.

I too agree with a child led education not being hothousing. If I ask my little one if he wants to read me a book and he does then to me it's not hothousing. If on the other hand he said no and I would tell him that he couldn't have his snack till he read me a book then that would be a hothousing to me.

That said I did bribe my kids with chocolate to finish a reading assessment test when they got tired of it in the middle I do make DS5 to sit down and work on his huge puzzle for 15 minutes a day, but then that was our deal when he insisted on getting on the puzzle. Deal is a deal

Homeschooling will be a different story though. I think it's ok when you push within a reason. It's not like kids learn/do in school only what they want to. Let's face if I didn't push my kids to pick up their laundry would be still on the bathroom floor.

LMom wrote that homeschooling would be a different story, but there are places mentioned about skipping kindergarten, so the education starts at preschool. Montessori is strict about rules, and they showed us a tape of a 18 month old child. He gets himself up, changes, goes potty, gets his breakfast. All himself. Everything is low so he can reach. Is that hothousing? Pushing the early development of independence? If you say yes, then those people might say the same thing about taking kids to the museum at 3.

Like Ruf's book, limited thesis, no methodology and no solid outcome but to say if you are smart, you probably have smart kids. This is all relative. Our opinion.

I push DD3 to eat vegetables, I force her to have fruit every morning. I can defend that with a colitis worry, but many people would let her eat pop tarts.

Back to comment re: Peter and the Wolf (this does relate) at Carnegie Hall last month. John Lithgow read, in English, then in Spanish. By the time the music started again the children were so distracted they didn't know which concert they were at. Why couldn't they keep it simple?

We don't keep anything simple anymore it seems.

Ren

I still say it's about your purpose. Why are you giving the kid more to do? What's your reason for doing it?

If you encourage the child to get ready alone in the morning because the child likes feeling independent and is happy about it, then that's okay in my book. If you're doing it to brag to your friends or to prepare her for college (this makes more sense with flashcards than getting breakfast for herself) or for any other reason than because it makes the child's life better and happier, then I think it's hothousing and it's mostly bad pressuring.

And "better and happier" can be in the future, but I think there has to be some sort of current payoff. If the main reason you're prepping a 3yo with math facts now is for college in 15 years, then that's misguided and probably harmful.

I believe in our case homeschooling would be a different story. Right now pretty much everything is child driven. If we hs DS may need to do things he doesn't like to do. I may need to push him to finish this page of to work on something he is not in mood at that time. Some people unschool and avoid this issue, but I am pretty sure we will face this sooner or later (more likely sooner).

dtto what others said about early independence

I agree. There's a difference between "not in the mood, but necessary," and "Grossly unnecessary and no fun."

Taking out the trash is no fun, but it is necessary. That's not hothousing.

Doing math homework may feel like taking out the trash for some child, but if the math is developmentally appropriate and assigned for school--any school, including HS--then it's not hothousing either.

Having a 3yo memorize the times tables is not necessary. So if it isn't fun for the child, then I'd define it as hothousing.

If the child does it alone, then it's DEFINITELY not hothousing. I can imagine the mess, kcab!

Ren,

I think the young people's concerts we went to were at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. The only redeeming thing about those trips was that after it was over, my brothers and I could visit the knights and armor room and the pyramid exhibit. But what you described was probably the main reason we were bored at the time - not child friendly (and quite frankly, we were not, and still are not, that interested in music). How ungrateful is that! It was an hour drive.

Finally, re: the hothousing discussion, I am either hothousing or homeschooling. But based on DS's tears this evening begging not to go back to school, asking to be saved, I'd say it's the right thing. His biggest complaint is that he hasn't learned anything this year. He is begging me to become his teacher...

Yup, that's a good sign that you're NOT hothousing.

Now if he were crying BECAUSE you were teaching him, instead of because his teacher is not, that would be a different story...

But you're clearly doing the right thing, Questions!

Hey, thanks, Kriston. I needed that pat on the back. Looks like I'll be spending some time researching other school choices and homeschooling, and working with his teachers to see what we can do in the classroom to help him get through the year.

And I think I have my answer to the other thread question on non-accelerated EG/PG (even though I don't know where DS is on that scale) - repeating a year or two not the answer, LOL!

Definitely not the answer! Oh, so not the answer!

If I can help with anything, let me know. I'm there for you.

And I'm always happy to give pats on the back as needed. I'll even virtual-moon you if you need a laugh!

questions:

Should be a different thread, but the Carnegie for kids (different from Family concerts) are fabulous. They are small, in the studio (DD3's preschool makes the trips) and so well done. Will put a note on the Philharmonic's Young People's Concerts after this weekend.

Ren

Oh Questions,
It makes me so sad to hear about DS in tears over school. There will be a time when DS forgets to remember that he wants to learn and be challenged intellectually, when he's more interested in what his friends think than what the teachers think. If you are considering homeschooling, then consider that you can end his school year when you feel he has had enough - there is so prize to sticking it out until June.

Can you keep him home one day a week while possible changes are being make for 'part time' homeschooling. Yes you can say he's 'under the weather' every Wednesday from not until June! Or can you manufacture some reason to pick him up after lunch twice a week?

Problem is, if a kid is in tear over not learning at school they are activly being damaged. Most likely it is you, dear, who will have to undo the damage - and the more there is, the harder there is.

I don't mean to scare you, but I kept my DS in a 'poor fit' situation for 6 months, hoping for the next meeting, or the next adjustment...looking back I just wish I hadn't! Anyway, we've paid the price over and over and are still paying it. Perhaps there was some larger good being accomplished that will only be clear 25 years from now....but....((sigh))

My DS11 is so emotional at times, and so stoic at other times, that I think it was hard for me to take his cryes for help seriously. Thankfully he acted out after a while and sent up the red flags.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thanks, Ren. If we lived closer, I'd try them (and for that matter, if we lived in NYC, we'd also try to get into Hunter - hope you hear good news!). As it is, we make trips in every once in a while to go to AMNH - and Mars 2112 (btw, there's no line there anymore, and they seem to have cut back on the number of aliens). Before they shipped out, we were members of the Intrepid Museum. You get an idea where DS's interests lie.

And Grinity, I know. We went through much worse at his old school, and he suffered for a lot more than six months. We were lucky that he rebounded so nicely. We have stepped this up to crisis situation and are talking to our support system about our options and what is best for DS while trying to advocate as best we can at his current school. Thank you for your kind words.

((Hugs Questions))
Grimity

DS's comment when I dropped him off at school this am: "Mommy, I forgive you for sending me to this school."

Ooooo! Ouch!