We expected a small pull-out group for math for DS7 (2nd grade) but it has fallen through, apparently due to change in personnel at the school. He was given a math assessment a few weeks ago, the current plans are to accommodate by providing math puzzles and games to do after regular class work. I have a meeting scheduled tomorrow with his teacher and the new math specialist to discuss the assessment and the plan. I believe his teacher is an ally, though probably not publicly; she had planned on the small group too.

I like puzzles, DS likes puzzles, and puzzles are certainly the only way I would be able to get him to do the simple computations that the class is currently doing. While I don't know the results of the assessment, I've got a reasonable idea of what DS knows in math, so I don't expect to hear that he needs to learn anything much in 2nd. My preference would be for them to either have a small group where the kids are taught whatever topics in greater depth/complexity, or for them to subject accelerate DS7 in math. A computer-based course would also be fine, though not just computer games.

So, here's my talking points, when I get around to talking (I do plan on being quiet and listening initially):

- puzzles and games aren't a substitute for teaching

- giving additional work only penalizes DS (would be better to give more difficult work in lieu of regular)

- DS is coming to conclusion that school is not for learning

- by giving too easy work, DS is not being given the chance to learn important character traits ("What a child doesn't learn")


I think those are the most important things to get across. What say ye all? Am I missing something/off base here?

Perhaps relevant here - DS has recently refused to go to school, has repeatedly said that the best part of the school day is dismissal, and has said to me that at least he can learn things at home. Also, DH and I are in the process of lining up a comprehensive assessment outside the school, but won't happen yesterday.

I am in the same boat with DS6. I sent a note last week but haven't gotten a response. But in my note I asked if anything could be done like "extra work or more appropriate math books"

Now reading your response you are right extra work penalizes him.
I am just so confused.
It just kills me he is counting dots in school, in his "gifted" public school. It is horrible.

yep - it's confusing, tracyqns. Extra work could be OK in K - I know DS7 has asked for it in the past, or given it to himself if no one else would. He is starting to object to it now, but will happily do harder work in place of easier. So, I wouldn't worry about what you said but only about the lack of response. Maybe try a different method of contacting the teacher?

Well, I haven't had to deal with a school in this situation, but I think telling them that your child doesn't see school as a place for learning should concern them very much. If they skim over that....I don't even know what I'd say. They should care very much that he's not learning anything.

I think your list is fine, and enough cause for them to take more action if they really care about your ds's education.

I always presented this as DS's perception was that he wasn't learning...that way it come off as less of an attack. That if DS's perception was in error, we needed to figure out away to change that.

kcab,

I'm lucky enough to have a flexible work schedule, so I spent DS's 2nd grade year providing the math pull out group (1 hour a week) for DS and the other "highly capable" 2nd graders.

I'm doing it again this year, but I suspect that my history as a math parent helper put us in a good position this year when we asked that DS be allowed to do EPGY math on the computer during school hours while the rest of the class was doing their regular math.

So anyway, if you've got the time and flexibility to volunteer in your son's classroom and run a math group, that might give you some extra leverage over what kind of math your son does on the days of the week when you aren't in the class...

traceyqns
I think it is most appropriate for gifted to do work that is at to their level. This has not been perfected in any areas yet for my DS. A meeting is planned soon to work on this. I have to say my DS does not mind doing extra work sometimes, even if it's easy. I think it's easy to hear something is very important to gifted and get worried you not doing the right thing. With my DS, who is very self motivated, I think attitude and reactions to school is most important. Sometime dealing with something hard can make you appreciate it more when you make it better. Hang in there. I have to keep reminding myself of this too. Keep advocating and let your son know you understand his feelings. That can go a long way. I hope this is comforting.

That's one of the options, yes. Since posting this morning, I've found that another parent will also be at the meeting. She has taught in the district before, which should make this option easier. Both of us expected a pull-out for math, and the kids were assigned to this teacher with the same expectation.

I'll have to be careful to make it clear that it is DS's perception that I'm concerned about. His teacher is very good and engaging, she just has kids at all different levels in the classroom. Still, just today he was remarking after school that he thinks he might like to be class clown, instead of the child who is currently in that position (in DS's opinion...).

oh, kcab...I hope it goes well tomorrow. I'll be thinking of you! I think your points are important and accurate. I wish that were all you needed! Navigating schools feels like walking across a graveled mountainside...just when you think you've got your footing, there's an ominous trickle and whoosh! everything changes! I'm so sorry about his ambitions changing to class clown. Mine, I heard for the first time this fall "I like to be lazy in school." :-( I'm glad to hear you've got an assessment moving. It's funny...it was so hard for us to decide to do that, and lord knows we fought the whole acceleration idea, and now I fling those around mentally like they're somehow easy and obvious. They're totally not. But you guys are being great, moving to get him - and you guys - help with the school problems. (if you end up using the person we used, she did really take down the school beautifully in our one meeting. If we had major problems again, I'd bring her in...not that this is a major problem just now, with the pullout. though the things you're saying your son is saying sound so much like mine last year that it makes me feel sick in the pit of my stomach! PTSD or something. But if he's a clown sort, maybe he's resilient and adaptable, as my kiddo wasn't so much last year).

Yeah Kcab no response to me. However yesterday my DS6 came home saying the teacher said he can skip if the work is too easy and wants to see his previous work.
So he brought in his 3rd grade text book and workbook.
Of course he remembers he was at page 302 when he left his last school.
So we will see. I am thinking maybe she was being sarcastic like "yeah sure, lets see your 3rd grade work" LOL

I am so negative I don't really believe something good can happen. But fingers are crossed.

I say "Great List!"
I also think that the info at the bottom is totally relevant, and the place to start, and remember it's ok to show how deeply this affects you emotionally when you hear him talk like that. ((Tears, dear, not clenched fists, though))

I think that it is theoretically possible to teach Math through a well thought out series of puzzles and games, incorporating what the assesment shows - but that's an awful lot of work! Better to purchase a curriculum. I think what you don't want is puzzles just thrown at him to shut him up. And even if it was perfect, it might not fit for a social boy who likes to learn in groups.

Some gifted kids are totally content to be left alone to do their own thing in the back of the classroom, some have personalities just won't tolerate that.

LOL from today: DS13 is studying sugars and starches. I suggested that he bring in a sweet potato and a flier I just got from the farm share, saying that sweet potatos have to be left in a greenhouse for a few weeks for some of the starch to turn to sugar and bring the flier and the potato to his teacher.
DS13: 'Oh MOM! I don't want to be That Kid!'
Me: Why not? I was that kid.
DS13: That's why you gradeskiped me and inspired me to take all honors classes in 9th grade, so I wouldn't have to be 'That Kid.'
Me: Oh yeah, now I remember...

I'm not saying that there is a single thing wrong with being 'That Kid' and I would defend that child against any Athority that says that social development is so important that the child should be kept back so they can fit in. But there are plenty of for-real PG kids who just don't want it for themselves. Personality makes such a difference!

Anyway - good luck Kcab!
Montana - sounds like you found a gem
Smiles,
Grinity

Well. I don't think that went particularly well. I feel grumpy and *crowded*. Parents of two other children were present, I was told at one point that my kiddo would have to wait for the others in the high-math group to catch up to him, as he is significantly ahead of them, too.

I don't feel like I had time or opportunity to really get my points across, though at least the one about extra work was clear. I expect they will keep that in mind.

OK.
positives:
1) I'm not nuts, he's ahead
2) More incentive to go full steam ahead on outside assessment.


Montana - I haven't yet gotten a return call from the person your son saw - am wondering now if I gave a wrong phone number or something. DH spoke to someone else, associated with same group, when he called. I'm not completely warm and fuzzy about the person DH spoke with, I talked to her briefly yesterday and she seemed abrupt. Though, could be plenty of reasons for that. I'm feeling abrupt myself right now. I think I'll call person you used again.

Ugh. I'm sorry. (((((hugs)))))) Why on earth would they think meeting with more than one kid's parents would be helpful, to anyone? Can you request an individual meeting?

And how do they justify that your DS will have to sit there and wait for others to catch up? Is there an upcoming thumb twiddling competition he can prepare for?

Kcab,
Is subject acceleration, actually going to another classroom for Math a possibility? How about 'partial homeschooling' where he doesn't attend Math at school, and gets what ever grade you grant him for your work together at home. I mean, if there plan for his is to 'wait for the other to catch up' that is an automatic A for doing nothing, right?

((((hugs))))
Try to get some fresh air and move around a bit and do whatever you do to nurture yourself for a little bit today, ok?
Grinity

thanks, guys. I don't know of any thumb-twiddling contests coming up. Subject acceleration isn't impossible, but would be problematic. I'll have to let this sit awhile and then see if I can get a chance to talk to people individually.

Hi kcab,
Hope you have better luck than me.
After seeing my DS6's work she said to me "Yeah, he is doing a lot of computations BUTTTTT I want to focus on comprehension with him" SO BASICALLY SCREW THE MATH! Isn't she supposed to teach both!

If I won the lotto I would open up some truely gifted schools that are affordable. I am sure most of us on this list would!

I don't know if it's too late but we have found it helpful to ensure the school separates their perception of our desires as parents and DD8's needs. I have found school staff to be much more responsive if they feel something is an issue to the student.

With that in mind we have asked DD to write down her issues and thoughts so that we can present it to staff and say "hey, help us deal with this". We did this with math and DD wrote about how much she loves math, how she does it for fun and ended it with "Boring math is so boring that I will not do boring math". It helped me as well because she was having underachievement issues (flipping from being a perfectionist) and we were not aware of how cognizant she was of the situation.

If the school can hear from your son in some way they might take him more seriously.

Thanks, Exo. He's written some notes, and I also tried to connect the dots between his self-generated problems (seems there is one of these on every homework sheet) and his needs. I think that may have been understood already, or else have struck home. They began placement testing almost immediately after the meeting. (Resulting in him being extremely buoyant when I picked him up after school, to have had a fun afternoon, while I was still stuck in the mud.) We shall just have to wait and see, but perhaps things did not go as poorly as I thought.

Oh Kcab! Our kids are the only onces I know that use testing as an enrichment activity. Our public school spent months testing DS in 4th grade, and it took him so long to get to the end of the test that the testing itself constituted a pullout/compacting program.

I'm praying for you.
Grinity

Since this is conference season for many schools, thought I would come back and update this thread with results of the meeting so far. Essentially, I think it actually was a successful meeting and my initial negative reaction was due to my own discomfort.

Results so far (these things take time...):

- 45 minute weekly pull-out with math specialist for this small group of kids.

- additional material - more depth, extension of topics - provided in class for the kids to do when the regular math lesson is not required (pre-tested out). Math specialist helping locate material.

- next grade up math book made available - not sure if they've started working in it yet (just showed up a few days ago).

- additional teaching/problems/material at DS7's level provided as possible. (I'm not always sure when this is taking place, but think that at least the lesson he had on calculating means was one of these.)

- placement testing was done, haven't heard the results yet.

When I list them, these accommodations seem minor, but they are helping with DS's behavior and mood. He is much happier on the days when he gets something meatier in math, even if it is only a little more. Right now just the recognition that he needs more makes a difference to him. He's very good at taking a small change and running with it himself, when his mood is good anyway, so even one question that gets him thinking in the classroom can become 10 additional questions he poses for himself.

In retrospect, I believe the things I said at the meeting that were most effective were:
- emphasizing DS's desire for greater complexity and that some of the things they see him do regularly in the classroom are an expression of this desire.

- giving more of the same level of work risks being seen as punishment

- that I was concerned about behavior problems cropping up at school, since we do see them at home when he doesn't have enough to do.

- questioning whether RTI will be applied to above level as well as below.

I believe bringing up RTI was useful because the teachers involved really weren't sure if it applied. For various reasons, I think they asked for clarification. As a result, the school's position that RTI *does* apply to above level has been stated. I'm happy with that, seems like it could make things better for other kids and parents too.

One of the accomadations we where able to get from DS7s public school, is the EPGY online program. The school moves him to 4th grade for math, and because of scheduling issues he can do EPGY instead of 3rd grade math. Its not a perfect fit (5h garde would be better), but its better then doing 3rd grade math. One good point is their is another 7 year old in his class that goes with him to 4th grade math.

Great to hear KCab!
We've always found that a little bit of accomidation goes a long way in the 'mood' department, so I'm not suprised that your DS is happier. It's as if my DS was hurt by 'lack of challenge' and ALSO insulted as well. The bits of accomidation went a long way towards soothing his pride, and the challenge was fun! A great combination.

Smiles,
Grinity

Yes, for DS there's the whole "wanting to fit in, but also wishing someone would notice that you are different" problem. At least the school is determining that he needs something other than the usual fare, we'll just keep working at modifying things as we go.

I did mention possibly doing a math course on-line, Edwin, just to get the idea on the table. I know that there are operational constraints that make it difficult, but I might have to push in that direction some more in the future.