Does anyone here have a child that is taking or has taken college courses at a college while still physically attending high school? Did he/she audit the courses, or take them for credit? DS12 is due to finish the high school sequence this summer in math but his official base grade would only be 10th so he wouldn't qualify for dual enrollment programs which are only allowed in the senior year here. Getting him permission to audit the courses seems to be the easiest option with the university. (There are no community colleges here) And his high school would be flexible to me taking him out during the day to attend classes. If you did his, what were the downsides? Besides potentially having to take it again for credit down the road.

FWIW, we're not looking for DS to graduate high school with a diploma so finishing out the next three years is not a concern, but we would like to keep him in high school a little bit longer, just not at the expense of his math. We're just looking for a way to keep both on track for next year.

Feel free to PM if that makes you more comfortable. Thanks!

My older daughter took Math 1B and Math 2A (second and third semester of Calculus) at a local college when she was a high school senior. AP calculus is the highest math class offered at high school. She took the classes for credit meaning taking tests and have a grade on her transcript.

My feeling is that teachers are better at junior college than those of AP calculus at high school. Students are more serious too because those in Math 1B and 2A class plan to major in science/engineering and to transfer to University of California systems. In general, she had pretty positive experience.

If you plan to show the college transcript to other institutions during college application, then you need to consider the grade that he may get in college class. Keep in mind that universities want to see that a student takes challenging classes and gets As.

I would not too concern about him taking the class again down the road. If he plan to major in any science, he probably need to re-take biology or chem or physics class when he gets to university. Junior colleges and high schools usually do not have the same resources. Math may be different since no costly lab is needed.

There are no junior colleges here, so my son would have to take a course at the university. But, due to his base grade level, I think he will have to audit the course, meaning no grade and no credit. I think that would be alright for now because the purpose would be for him to continue his learning in math, not for actual credit purposes anyway. I'm wondering about the big picture, though. What kind of impact would this have down the road?

CFK wrote "I'm wondering about the big picture, though. What kind of impact would this have down the road?"

It is usually beneficial for high school students to take university class if they are intellectually ready. I could not think of anything negative. If the class is too hard, then just drop it or take another class that is a bit lower. No harm done.

Hi,

My own experience now quite a few years ago, I took one university course during my senior year in high school, auditing, good experience, was very illuminating as to what university was like which I think helped me have some insight into choosing a u for the following year. The subject material wasn't particularly hard and it was nice to learn I could handle that level. I couldn't consider taking it for credit as the u was an hour away and I couldn't be there for sure every time. After starting u myself I saw a upper level class in that subject, not usually open to freshmen, approached the teacher and they said no problem, take the class. That led to a research assistant job starting as a freshman with that professor, something other students didn't usually do til later on, so all around a great thing for me. She gave me a nice reference helping me get into the next school after university. (Also led to a boyfriend who was a junior which was a cool thing.)

My husband took AP calculus as a sophomore in HS and then took 2 for credit math and physics courses a semester for the next 2 years at his local state U. No one apparently asked him whether he wanted to do that or not, he was just signed up by his parents with the idea that that was the natural course of events for someone who'd finished with what high school had to offer. His high school was helpful in rearranging his other curriculum and he graduated with his class. He says it was a good experience, he liked the material and was able to transfer all the credit to his eventual university. His grades were not particularly good but the transferred credits did not take the grade info along with them so no harm done. He eventually gave up math in university (thinks he probably would have whether or not he'd taken extra classes ahead) but all those advanced credits gave him room to follow some interests beyond just the required courses for his major. He did wish that the local U math teachers had been more enthusiastic, but says that at his eventual more prestigious U they weren't that great either and he doesn't think that turned him off of math. As a perk of university, he got a college ID that he used to get into local bars.

Polly

It was quite a while ago for me, too. I started at about 12 when my dad taught a math course at the local community college and taking courses for credit my freshman year of high school. I needed to do it on my own time, though, because my school didn't believe in acceleration (even though the community college did). However, some of the credits didn't transfer to my university a few year later, and I had to redo them in college... However, I did meet some real peers during my experience, which was better than getting credit for me. I also was able to learn new material.

Thank you all, this is helpful. I think my main concern is that if he audits (because I really don't think I can get him enrolled even parttime due to age and grade) that he will have no way of showing that he has mastered the material. He will end up with what amounts to gaps on paper by the time he actually enrolls in college if his last graded math course was a couple of years earlier. I do think this will be offset though by the knowledge he will acquire, and in the feeding of his math appetite.

C-
Many kids who audit take a related exam such as an SAT II or subject test to prove mastery. You can also get a nice rec letter from the professor when the course is completed.

I hadn't thought of that - Thanks!

I was also going to mention the rec. letter from the professor.
DS audited Calc 1 over the summer. This was between 8 and 9 grade. Since the University class started in the beginning of May, I took him from school a good month early. He really enjoyed that!
He audited the class but took all the tests, did all the homework etc. The professor offered to write a letter should we ever need it (disclosure - we know a lot of math prof. at that particular U).
The reason for the class was so he could take AP Calc BC as a freshman, which he is now doing. Next year he will have to take classes at the U, but his HS allows it early - there is actually one freshman that is taking Calc 3 now.
The biggest difference between the college and HS courses is the fact that you do them in half the time and while the material might not be overwhelming, the workload might.
If you are looking at the early graduation from HS your son's situation will be looked upon more carefully and you will be able to explain more than regular college applicant. Ask professors to write a rec. letters that will include all of his grades etc. This to me is a win/win situation becasue if the grade is good, you ask for the letter if it is not, you do not.

If you are able to pay for the class I would not assume that he would have to audit just because he's in 10th grade. There are certainly schools that will allow students to take for a grade younger than that.

That said, auditing is a great way to start college classes because there is less pressure.

The other option you might want to consider is finding a mentor.

The rec letter - another thing I didn't think about! Between those and the SAT II tests I guess we can cover the "paper gaps". Ania, what your son did sounds very much like what we are looking to do with DS. The fact that the classes are in done in half the time is very appealing to him. He's pretty good with a heavy workload so I don't anticipate a problem. Do you plan on continuing your plan for your son (going to the college for math) for all four years of high school?

Passthepotatoes, I hope you're right, but so far I've been told that unless he has XX credits (equivalent to senior status) he can not be admitted to the university and be enrolled in the class for credit.

As for mentor, I've been working on that for awhile. I think we finally stumbled onto a mentor for computers but math is still hanging. Did you go the mentor route? That would be preferable to me over college classes based on the great results he had working with a private tutor last year.

He is taking AP Calc BC at the HS this year and it looks like after that he will have to take classes at our flagship.
Also, is there an ARML team where you are? It would be worthwile to look into it. In our state all the top math kids meet at the ARML. Great mentoring for younger kids!

CFK-

I always believe rules are meant to be broken...when appropriate. I would see if you could persuade the college to change the rule (age limit or credit pre-req). Or maybe try one audit and then approach them. I know my kids would find it difficult to do all the work without anything to show for it.

Also, as an aside, my DS 11 is taking a community college math course for credit, but before we negotiated an agreement between the middle school and the college, he took Fractal Math online, which he enjoyed, and Statistics. Going outside the standard sequence might be enjoyable.

Back in the dark ages I took college classes before finishing high school. I essentially did it instead of finishing high school. Without a high school diploma they had me take a series of exams to show basic knowledge to see what I qualified to take for credit. Once completed I was allowed to matriculate and register like everyone else. That was at a community college so I don't know it that is relevant to you. I loved it!

Hopefully we still have several years before we're facing this issue square on, but it's nonetheless a very pertinent topic of conversation right now.

How old were you when you started taking the college course(s) and how long until you started full time? Did you find many kids your own age? And if not, how well were you received by the older kids?

I've been reading a bunch of the heady research on this, but am ready for some anecdotal info now.

Thanks!

I've been trying to break them, just haven't had luck yet! I've talked to the two universities within commuting distance. Neither will enroll for credit without requisite number of high school credits already in his pocket (which he doesn't have). As for auditing, they've both said that age/grade is not as important as prerequisites. I think we will try the auditing route and then if it goes well, try again to enroll for credit after he's proven himself with the institution.

I did something similar to this way back when also. I started university a week after the 11th grade as part of the dual enrollment program. I never went back to high school again, but my credits counted toward both college and high school. I got my high school diploma in the mail a year later when I was already almost a junior in college. I highly recommend the program also!

My concern for my son is that he wouldn't be particpating under the auspices of a program like dual enrollment. That and he's four years younger than I was at the time.

I absolutely hated high school and the community college classes were like heaven to me. I started at 16 and made friends who were a year or two older than me. Some of the high school seniors from my high school took classes as well. These were supplements or replacements for kids who were going to finish high school. I started full time right away. If I remember correctly I had to take one math class that was non credit since I had not completed trig yet but other than that I was in college. I had some other issues going on - family stuff - and did not end up finishing college any earlier than if I had stayed in high school but I did very easily transfer to an excellent four year university and then on to graduate school. I think the rule was that once you had at least 30 college credits you could apply to a four year college without a high school transcript. I never got a high school diploma...and it never mattered.

I did get one (albeit in the mail), but it never mattered either. That's why I'm not concerned if my son doesn't graduate from high school. I'm liking the auditing idea more and more. Once he gets his foot in the door and shows what he can do, I think many more will start opening.

Also in the dark ages, I had all I needed to graduate from high school except one year of English and one year of Gym class. The high school canceled all of the AP classes. Thus, I enrolled in the local state university on the basis of great 11th grade SAT scores and showed up only enough to fulfill the requirements for the two classes. First semester, I took French advanced grammar and composition, introductory Biology, and second semester calculus. Second semester, I took an advanced French literature course conducted entirely in French, with fellow students who were seniors or graduate students. I took Microbiology with juniors and seniors, and third semester calculus.

The following year, I went away to Harvard, which gave me no credit for any of my previous college courses, and where I had to argue for appropriate placement. The French department adviser wanted me to take a 4th semester language course,so in fluent French, I told her it would be useless - and I never took any more French classes. I talked my way, over the adviser's objections, into fourth semester calculus. I took a more advanced general biology class, and advanced general Chemistry and Physics there. Thus it was an advantage in the end, even without credit.

My daughter is 11 now and two years ago in 5th grade her ACT composite score was 19. She may start her first college course when she is in 9th grade. We will have to look at our options at that time.

@pelsteen & @lanfan:

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I had no idea what things were like back in the "dark ages," and it gives me hope for the future.

I've been reading more & more about specialized early-entrance programs at many universities designed to provide enhanced support to the younger college students -- and these look quite promising.

Our son is slated for HS graduation at 15 or 16 and I'm working hard to wrap my mind comfortably around that concept so that I don't spend the next several years doubting our current decision to skip another grade.

Don't wrap it too comfortably! You're still early in the game. Up until the beginning of this year, I thought DS would be in high school until 16 or older also. I had great plans of him taking many credits and "going horizontally" for a few years before colelge. Since starting school this fall however, he's told me that he has no intention of sticking around high school for more than another year or so. He's the one that started the college class search. One of the things I didn't realize back when DS was in the trenches in elementary school was that I wouldn't be calling the shots on his education forever. He's started taking the reins. While it's hard to relinquish that role, it's actually quite a load off! After all these years of fighting the system on his behalf, the process of handing over the role of advocator and facilitator has begun, and so far he's doing a good job.

Just as an aside I think many kids would benefit from beginning college at 16 instead of sticking around in high school. The social environment in more forgiving and the classes are more interesting. I am certainly not PG and neither are my kids but I assume they would benefit. I have often wondered about the wisdom of AP classes in general. Why not just take the actual college courses and get the actual college credits. I tend to think it has more to do with state politics and funding than it does with kids.

Thank you, thank you!!! There is so much HOPE in this statement! After getting the following comment from our high school principal, I needed to read that, .


It seems to be the "statement de jour" for all of my recent meetings/negotiations. My favorite though was when the assistant super described it as perhaps not doing "a traditional K-12 experience". Um....that ship already sailed!

DS is 10...and his situation at the moment is extremely sweet. It's not ideal, but it's probably the best possible compromise that an "average" public school could offer. I want to bask in that warmth for a bit before considering the scary "g" word (graduation).

You have a little time to bask! For us the scary "g" word did not come up until after the scarier "p" word (puberty)! 10 year olds take kindly to mom telling then what's what. Almost 13 year olds - not so much!

Is there a way to 'go fast' through the prerequesite classes using online courses? Sometimes courses are designed for kids who took the class once and flunked to 'get up to speed quickly' - I think the catchphrase is 'credit recovery' - not very deep, but designed to get kids their credentials quickly.

I don't think that it is a nescessity, but if it helps, why not?

Smiles,
grinity

Oh, gee. Thanks for adding something else to my list of concerns.

Although, considering how little he appreciates my advice now (@ 8yrs), I certainly hope it can't get much worse after "p" arrives. Delusional, I know -- but one can hope, right?

Hi Dandy,
How close is your DS to age 9? I found that DS had a 'mini-puberty' at age 9. Mostly mental, but some physical changes (odor) as well.

The problem with 'p' is that DS is just as unimpressed with my advice as always, but he acts much less wise. So in the 8-11 years, I could ask a few pointed questions and DS would head in the right direction, by consensus.

Now, DS13 really does appear 'stupider'than he used to be in many basic life skills. I figure that the hormonal changes are a bit like having a buzzing flourescent lightbulb that is constantly driving DS to the edge misery. I'm still hoping that it will calm down soon.

Smiles,
Grinity

He just turned 8 last month.

But his "Dad-knows-nothing" attitude has been present since birth.

My work-around has simply been to have any ideas proffered by teachers. So far this has worked quite well, especially for "character-building" exercises.

Last week I tried to teach him a short-cut in math... which he characteristically refused to implement. The homework task took about three times longer as a result, with plenty of errors.

His teacher, helping him with the issue, offered the same hint a couple days back and *gasp* it was the best advice in the world. DS implemented the strategy, saved time, reduced errors, solved world hunger, etc.

When I asked him about it last night, he said, "No comment, Dad!"

Ha-ha on him. But as long as he learns & improves, I don't really care who the teacher is.

I just took CFK "to the woodshed" via PM for that same thought, ROFL!!! Seriously though, it simply canNOT be worse than it was is for DD2, .

Just to reiterate, kids who audit college courses can still take exams and get credit via CLEP , DANTES, or other subject test offered by the college, as well as AP exams offered through the College Board. SAT subject tests might also be used to prove mastery, and perhaps help with placement.

A few things make it easier for a young student to be admitted for credit:
1. high ACT or SAT scores
2. completion of all/most high school material available in a subject
3. confidence and self advocacy