Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Any last minute tips for DYS application?

I know there has been much discussion regarding the young scholar applications. Of course, now when I need it, I am having a hard time putting my finger on those threads.

We are finalizing our application and wanted to know if anyone had any special tips that may help us get accepted.
Our child tested on the WPPSI-III and received a score of 146 - Davidson requires 150 on this particular IQ test. My child did score at 17 or higher on 5 of the subtests. He also has taken both the WIAT II and WJ III achievement tests and scored above 145 on those.

Any suggestions would help. Thanks

Zia-

Beyond the test scores you have, I'd suggest that you think about where your DC really shines. If it's reading, include a list of independently read books, and maybe a clip of DC reading aloud or answering questions about a book to demonstrate comprehension. If it's mathematics, send examples of problem sets with work included, and not just the answers. Whatever it is that makes you (and others!) say, "Wow!" is what you want to highlight. If there is some area you know is amazing and unusual, but don't know how to show, please let us know. I'm sure somebody around here can give you an idea.

WPPSI can have pretty low ceilings if your child took the test at age six plus. All those 17s make me wonder. On the flipside, the trouble with any test normed for very young children is that if you get a kid who is able to do math or read fluently at age 3 or 4, or even 5, their score might come out REALLY high. That's probably why DITD wants to see the 150 on this particular test. Sometimes the kid who can read Dr. Suess at five comes out looking very G, while they may be "just" bright or moderately gifted.

I think it is a good thing that DITD is looking at a number of things when evaluating prospective YSs, though it is of course a pain for the parents to assemble all the documentation. I am not a fan of the "one test" method of selection for special programming. Each piece of "evidence" you submit should give them a better understanding of who your child is and what sort of things s/he can do.

good luck!

Hi, Lorel,

I'll bite on your offer - I'm struggling, too. Our son meets the score criteria on WISC-IV VCI and WIAT-II Oral Language - but these are comprehension skills that are hard to describe. His love is science - but for a number of reasons, his academics are not where his abilities are. I'm still having trouble with the describe an incident that shows his ability to process complex information quickly - he just does it -- with everything. And it's hard coming up with objective criteria to prove comprehension when there's no written output to confirm it (I had an earlier post saying just that). I'm thinking that I'll just supplement the scores with what amounts to a portfolio - e.g., a list of books he's listened to - because he sure hasn't read them himself! I believe he does have some very positive recommendations, which should help. Still, he's not nearly as accomplished academically as so many of the children described on this board, including, in particular, those I've read about recently who have not yet gained acceptance to DYS.

The video idea is interesting, although I don't have a video camera that records to full size dvd or vhs. Maybe I can transfer a video from my phone to a blank dvd... That should take me about a day to figure out...

Good luck to you, Zia's Mom - don't want to encroach on your thread, but maybe the answers will be helpful to both of us.

Thanks Lorel,

Thanks for the feedback.
Since we are already including achievement tests that will show that our son is reading and doing math at a much higher level than expected, should we focus the portfolio on other talents or also include things like the reading lists and math problems you mentioned above?

The three more unique areas I think might be worth mentioning include:
1. Chess- While one of the youngest children competing, he has had fantastic success on the local, state and national scholastic scene, competing with kids anywhere from 2-7 years older than he is.
2. Proficiency with email. - Our son composes his own emails, using proper sentence structure and grammar, and has email conversations with relatives and friends around the country. In fact, I had to institute a rule that he was not to send "unapproved email" to non-family members without me reading it first. Reading his emails you get a sense for his level of maturity, how he will start them with greetings and his concern or empathy for people, for example asking how they are feeling if they were sick. Should I include copies of these? How do the Davidson folks know we are not making this stuff up?
3. Artwork through the Paint program on the computer - He makes
very sophisticated pictures using the computer. This shows not only his creativity but his facility with technology. Some our based on his fascination with history and depict scenes from different wars or of an historical figure he particularly likes.
This might highlight his historical knowledge, too. Do you just include a color copy of the pictures? Do you write descriptions for them? Should I ask my son to write descriptions?

Here is another question. Over the summer, when we still thought we were sending him to the gifted private school, he did his 1st day of school project. He had to an assigned book, and then write and illustrate a summary version of the book to be read to small children. He did this for two books actually, since the school hadn't finalized what grade he was to be entering and we didn't want him to be left out.

We have both books. Would you actually send the entire book, or take photos or video of it? They do not return things, right?

Thanks for letting me share my opinion of where my son shines, (it is always fun to highlight his achievements) and for offereing suggestions on how to present them to the YS folks.

Back to your WPPSI comments above,I am not really sure what you meant by the low ceilings and the 17's making you wonder. To clarify, he had two 17's, one 18 and two 19's. He was 4 1/2 when he took the test. Maybe you could elaborate on the point you were making.

To the author of "questions". No problem at all jumping on the thread!! The more the better!!

Hi questions,
Hope this helps:
We have recently applied to DYS program for DD7. While she had FSIQ WISC-IV qualifying score, we have NOT done an achievement test yet. When I initially called to inquire, they did say we COULD substitute a portfolio for one of the tests if we had one qualifying score.
As I understand it, we did not send in enough work for them to make that determination from her portfolio.
If I could go back I would have just arranged for her to take the WIAT or Woodcock Johnson before we applied. FWIW.
We have decided to have DD7 take an achievement test, probably the WIAT because that's what our tester uses and Insurance is going to cover it.
Of course I would like to see her get in, but it's not earth shattering if she doesn't.
To me it's worth investigating, even if they ultimately say no. Maybe it's not a good fit. Maybe it would be the best thing that ever happened to our family.
You will never know if you never send the application in. The counselor I talked to was very nice and helpful in explaining the letter to me.
There is absolutely NO sense of embarrassment if it's not a good fit, anyway.
If you have qualifying scores on IQ testing AND achievement testing, I believe you would be in very good shape to apply.
There is nothing to lose by applying, and if they need more data, they will let you know.
IMHO the letters of recommendation are a good idea. Sometimes we think what our kids do is normal, because it is normalized for us. A teacher, friend, neighbor, church person, whatever, may really see what your child is doing as exceptional and can express that effectively in a letter of recommendation.
Good luck to you questions and Zia's Mom.
It's clear you all are paying attention to what's going on with your kids and will take care of their needs one way or another.

Incog

Zia's mom,

Was the book more of a techical summary, or can you determine his "voice" in his writing?

Thank you, Incog. I appreciate your comments. Very much. And thanks, too, Dottie and Zia's mom. I'm on a roll now, and know exactly what I want to do. We have a lot of professional information (detailed evaluations) already - I'll just supplement where it might be helpful.

Incongneato,
You make a good point about the books. They are not really technical but they are very simplistic, as that was the assignment. I think his emails would showcase his "voice" much more. I don't think we will use the books.

Hi Zia's mom,
just look closely at the application. I think on the last page they give specifics on what they are looking for in terms or the child's work submitted.

Good luck, I'm sure whatever you send in will be a very impressive representation of your child.

Incog

Ah, we are in a similar position. Our ds (5.5) took the WPPSI last month and was a few points shy of the Davidson cutoff -- with five ceilings. His WIAT scores, though, qualify him both in reading and math. I sent in his application last week.

I included several anecdotes in the parent question sections that I felt would give them a good feeling for ds. You can work a lot of information into those answers; just attach a separate sheet. I think the history/battles thing would fit well in the "child's need to explore subjects in surprising depth" or whatever it was, and they even suggest including chess in the "prodigious talent" section. My ds is less academically motivated than many of the children on this board, but I was able to come up with several incidents that demonstrate ds's precocity, and work them into my answers. Of course, we just applied this month, so that may or may not work!

Since they ask for copies of all standardized tests given, I don't know that you *can* technically omit the WPPSI score from your application; if you have had testing done, they go by scores. I don't think portfolio is an option if you have two qualifying tests. Am I mistaken in this impression?

Personally (and I can say this, because it's what I did), I'd include his WPPSI and WIAT scores and get all the other info in the parent sections. From what I understand, they look at the full score reports, and they'll likely figure out the the WPPSI IQ is an underestimate, given the limitations of that particular test.

Anyway, best of luck! Your little man sounds extraordinarily bright.

Hi Mia,
I really appreciate the tips. It does seem that we are in a very similar situation. Good luck to you, too.

Hi Gratified 3,

Thanks for the advice. Just for clarification, only the WPPSI requirement is 150, the achievement tests are 145 or above, so for my son, he has met the achievement part. I would like to hear from others that were accepted without the 150 score on the WPSSI and what else you included.
Thanks

I think that they look at the scores if they're close on the IQ scores, at least -- that's what I've heard on other boards. That's why they ask for the entire score report, and not just the single numbers -- they look at the scores in context.

I'll use ds's scores, to show why I haven't given up hope even though his WPPSI scores were below the cut-off. His FSIQ score on the WPPSI is 148 -- just two points below the cut-off. However, that includes his coding score, which was in the 50th percentile. This is a score that can vary greatly, especially for advanced children; it depends partially on fine-motor skills. And if you sub out a low score for a different subtest in the same category, that makes a huge difference on results. That category is Processing; his other subtest in that category was one of the ones he ceilinged.

His WIAT scores were, according to the report, much higher than expected for his IQ score. That, coupled with the test ceilings, means that he likely would have scored higher on a test with a higher ceiling.

So even though one score isn't quite there, don't give up hope! I've been lead to believe that they *do* look at how individual subtest scores and ceilings factor into the scores.

But maybe there's someone with a success story?

About those WPPSI scores... This particular Wechsler has a fairly low ceiling, and many kids who take it when they are at the older end of the age range have artificially LOW scores due to the test not being able to measure anything higher.

On the other hand, I have heard professional test administrators say that they take the WPPSI with a grain of salt, as it can also produce artificially HIGH scores due to the age norming. How many four year olds can actually decode and not just recognize a few sight words? Not very many, and that makes the child who reads a bit look extraordinary.

The WPPSI essentially can give the same sort of scores to kid A, reading Dick and Jane, and kid B, reading Ivanhoe. While it is unusual for a four year old to read at all, it is FAR more unusual for a four year old to be reading novels. I think this is why Davidson wants more than just test scores. They can be so ambiguous! Unfortunately, we don't really have anything better at this point.

Questions-

Sigh... I think it can be very tough for kids who do not have any "product" to show. Maybe you can think about what it is that makes your child different: deep thoughts, perceptive abilities, the kind of questions asked.

In an interview I once spoke about how gifted kids are different from the norm. I talked about how any four year old might like dinosaurs, but the gifted child will go "deeper" into the subject, memorizing not just a handful of names, but dozens of them. He will want to know what each one ate, what precise period they lived in, and more. For PG kids, of course, this is the same, but their interests tend to be even more intense. This intensity is what you need to show.

I'm not sure if this is helpful after all, but it's hard to be very specific.

best wishes-

Lorel,

Thank you! You make me feel so much better. That's exactly what I've been doing - compiling lists of stuff. And the intensity is clearly there. I just wanted objective sources so they'll believe me - but there aren't any. Frankly, when my son speaks science, it sounds a lot like what I read about Dottie's son speaking math (but he doesn't have the top achievement scores to prove it - well he does in comprehension and oral language, but there's no science test on the WIAT). And because I don't have proof, I'm providing a bunch of anecdotes re: his questions and answers, etc. I was even thinking about a video, as if the application was by portfolio instead of scores, but I don't have a camcorder. I suppose I could offer to add it later once I find one I can borrow. I'm very eager to get this off for Friday's deadline, in case the rules change for 2008. We definitely need the help - but no matter what, we're already better off than when I first started this process about a month ago, thanks in particular to so many of you here.

Thank you.

Yep, I was there for both the WIAT and the WISC, a silent observer. I guess it's a good thing the WISC doesn't require reading b/c at the time, that was "school work" and he pretty much refused to do or at least refused to try on anything he perceived as work. No phenomenal scores for him in reading!(Nothing like testing a kid who hated school over vacation...) But we got the answers we needed (we were testing for learning issues, not for YSP, which I never heard of until about a month ago when I started research based on what I was hearing in parent teacher conferences) and life has improved for all of us.

I just wanted to support you. I completely identify with you here. I want the objective, safe sources, too. There's security in that. But it's just so hit-or-miss with the tests available right now. Surely the committee at DYS has to know that, right?

I wish I could loan you my camcorder! I'm utterly convinced that video is the way to apply to DYS with a young "product-less" child like yours (and mine). When you see one of these kids in action, you absolutely know it!

What about a tape recording? That would be better than nothing, right? At least they could hear him talk, hear the intensity. It might be worth a shot...

Good luck!

Thanks, Kriston. Here I am at the 11th hour and still working away at this. I've tried all sorts of sources but I can't prove what he's done. I might try the video route, as my new phone has video on it. Still, I have to figure out if maybe I can video and copy to a dvd (that part I've been able to do) and convert it into some sort of format they can read. (They say in the portfolio section that it has to be a full-size dvd or vhs cassette.) Good luck to you - and to all of us!

I'll be thinking of you!

I think if we moms can figure out the technology and all the intricacies of the application process, it ought to prove that our kids have sufficiently gifted genes to get them in to DYS! LOL!

Let me know what you include in your app and how it goes. Best of luck!

Hi Questions,
You are not the only one working at the 11th hour to get this application finished! Not sure why I always wait to the last minute.

Does anyone know if you can actually email the application and the supporting documents? I am assuming not, since the application says fax or mail, but they do give an email address.

It might be worth a phone call to ask them...

(And if you do ask, please report back about the answer, if you don't mind. Thanks!)

Zia's Mom,

Why don't you just call them and ask? They must be still open now. Economical, and efficient!

Were you able to type on the pdf form? I wasn't aware it was formatted that way. Would make the application a whole lot neater on our end...

And yes, I'm always last minute. I think about it, think about it, think about it, and then, no more time - got to write. Still haven't overcome my bad habits from college...

Hi Questions,
Right after I sent the email I finally was able to reach someone. They are okay with email.

We are able to type on the PDF form but I think that is because we have the Adobe writer program at home. At least that is what my husband tells me. :-)

Thank you - might be worth a download tonight.

And I gave my fed ex number to one of our references. I suppose she could save the money and email, too.

Zia's Mom,

Could you please ask your husband exactly what software you have? Is it Adobe Acrobat Professional? I couldn't find Adobe writer... I have a pdf editor by Litera, but it doesn't seem to allow me to edit without inserting all sorts of text boxes. Not worth it at this point.

Thanks!

It is Adobe Acrobat 7.0

That's so weird - I'm using Adobe Acrobat 8.0 and I can't figure out how to write on the form. Oh, and did I mention that DS was home sick today, and then this afternoon we had a trip to the doctor b/c he fell and luckily did NOT break his jaw!

Thanks for the tip - I'll check it out. Another great way to procrastinate as I try to pull together all these separate pieces of paper (I have to type - my writing is absymal! No wonder DS has trouble with writing...)

I'll delete my reference, and perhaps Zia's mom can delete hers as well. Then, after I send this thing off, I'll post the info I read separately. Hope this helps.

Thanks again to everyone who offered tips on the application. We just received notice that they have a complete application and it will be going in for review starting on Monday. They did mention a delay with the holiday but I still expect a response by mid-January.

I was very happy with the final product and we used a lot of the suggestions provided here. Our fingers are crossed. Does anyone know, on average, how many applicants the program gets a month? Just on this board alone there seemed to be 4 or 5 folks submitting.

Exciting stuff! I hope your kids are accepted.

We were primed to apply for this month's cycle as well, but are dealing with our first ever long family vacation around the holidays. Between making/shipping gifts around the country 2 weeks in advance of the holidays, arranging for house/pet sitting, and everything that goes along with being out of town for a long time, we dropped the ball. Everything is done except for the reference, but I didn't feel right asking someone to give a reference and then asking them to rush through it in a day or so. We'll wait until January to apply.

Our son exceeds the Davidson criteria for WISC and WIAT, but I'm still a little anxious about whether he'll be accepted - I think that's just the way I am, I don't want to count my chickens before they are hatched. Also, he has no good reference sources per the DYS recommendations. He's homeschooled, so there are no non-family teachers to ask. I'm going to ask one of my friends, who has known him for about 5 years, because she used to be an elementary school teacher and tends to know what's in the normal range (and what isn't) academically. Honestly, I don't know who else I would ask. The only adults he knows well are our family and friends. And I can't ask relatives, so...

Keep us posted on what happens!

Thank you, esperanza. I, too, want to thank everyone for your help, advice, and encouragement. Unlike zia's mom, I would have liked more time to polish what I wrote, but I really wanted to make the December deadline for several school-related reasons. Also, unlike private school admissions, I figured this process is truly about the children and they are looking to admit all those who qualify and aren't judging the application on the rambling of the parents. They know exactly what they are looking for and are clearly trained to spot it. So thanks to all of you again.

Hi Esperanza,
I'm hopeful that another of your friends will fill out a reccomendation for you. An alternative is to participate in your state's gifted association and ask the ladies there. Happy Holidays,
Trinity

Hey Trinity,

I subscribe to my state's gifted education email list (from the department of education) but since we are homeschooling, I'm not terribly active - 99.5% of the messages pertain to public school issues. No one there "knows" us. I'm sure if our son was in school we'd have more options for references. I'm hoping that since his IQ and achievement scores exceed DYS requirements, that a reference from a friend will suffice. I'll have an answer in January either way!

e