Here's an article which appeared in the Buffalo News paper. They are actually talking about serving the best and the brightest!!! WOW!!



Yep, that's what my district does.

Ahem. You can include me in the minority group on this one as regards our local school district.



Scary. Really scary. Way, way scarier than the story of the first grade teacher didn't who didn't feel competent to teach third grade math. At least she was aware of the problem, which could be easily solved with a refresher course.

What kind of fool makes a statement like that? And can you imagine the level of a mind that could produce so many incredibly dumb and wrong ideas, on so many levels, in so few words?

So I'm not mincing words here, but I don't care. It's time to stop letting these types get away with this sort of thing. They're destroying the education system in this country.

Val

Public ridicule is a good place to start. There is reason why shame was invented.

What is sad is that this is exactly the reason why we just pulled out of public school and went back to homeschooling. The principal of the school had a real chip on his shoulder concerning gifted children. I honestly believe that the school systems today are completely sucking children dry of all their original thoughts and creative problem solving :-(

I believe it with you.

Add me to that list, even though we have seemed to find a decent school... at least for K-5.

A brief word on behalf of all teachers out there (of which I am one): We are expected to educate the masses. This means, in our current climate, that we not only have the occasional gifted kid in our classrooms, but also the physically disabled, learning disabled, mentally challenged, emotionally disturbed, attention-deficit, hyperactive, and English language learner - not to mention the fact that in some classrooms, there exists a poverty rate of over 90% (which is generally correlated with lack of parent involvement - which is generally correlated with poor student achievement). Imagine the meetings at the beginning of the year: The teachers are all sitting at tables staring at state assessment data for 8 hours with the principal droning on about AYP, telling them they're doing a crappy job, and demanding that instructional interventions be written up for the lowest students. These plans consist of 60 minutes each day during which the teacher works in small groups with low kids while everyone else completes independent work (code for what amounts to crossword puzzles or silent reading). The students above the 50th percentile aren't even glanced at. This is not the principal's fault - she is simply the messenger.

As a gifted teacher, I am fortunate in that most of my kids are motivated when challenged and come from homes with involved parents. However, I have taught in regular education classrooms with kids who drop the F-Bomb as part of their regular interaction with adults, get pregnant at 13, and can barely read their own names. This is NOT a failure of our teachers. It is a failure of our culture. It is a failure of our American system in which achievement and intellect are supposed to be valued but our system of government tries to make everyone equal.

So yes, in a sense, the system does "suck creativity and original thought" out of our kids - but I don't really see that teachers have much of a choice. No one can learn when Johnny and Deon are bouncing off the walls, Sarah is crying because she misses her mommy, Spencer has eaten only one meal in the last 24 hours (lunch at school), Brittany has severe dyslexia and needs everything read for her, Jose and Jorge are oblivious to anything because they can't speak English, and Matthew has just threatened to bash in the head of another student because he didn't get to count the money in the math activity. Not that it's right, but the easiest thing for the teacher to do is get everyone on the same page, try to reign in the most severe behavior problems, and do her best get the low kids passing the state assessments (because her job may depend on it). And this isn't just in the urban schools - we live in a suburban district with high test scores, and my kindergarten daughter comes home every day with stories about some girl in her class with severe behavior problems - screaming, throwing fits on the floor, scribbling all over other kids' papers, etc. However, the school is forced to educate this kid unless she hurts another student. So my child will undoubtedly suffer because the teacher spends 80% of her time dealing with one or more of these type of kids. No one's going to pay attention to my well-behaved daughter who quietly circles the "A's" on her worksheet of alphabet soup at school but asks in-depth questions about evolution around the dinner table. Not saying it's right, but it's the way the system is set up. And I really think most teachers are doing the best they can with the cards they've been given.

Hopefully this is an exaggeration for most of us, but sadly, it does paint a real picture all too well, . But I would like to say "thanks" on behalf of SkyDiveMom and the many wonderful teachers my own children have had over the years. I helped enough in their classes over the years to appreciate just what you are describing, and I'm even more grateful for the few changes teachers have made on behalf of my kids.

Really, truly...if you want perfectly individualized education, you are going to have to homeschool. Period. And my hat goes off to those who do just that. They really are creating an optimal academic situation. Any group setting, even one within an HG school, will require some degree of compromise, as the needs of two kids are rarely alike. Even in my own house, with just three children, I find it hard to "be all" to each of them simultaneously.

I'm not sure why I'm writing. I can say that I've been frustrated lately by the overall negativity at this website, and while I can appreciate the need to vent, it's also very personally discouraging. I will probably start reading less for my own well being. Things are NOT ideal at our school, and my PG son's plan is fraught with complications at the moment. But everyone is trying, and it isn't a bad compromise. It can work..."good enough". I'm grateful for the effort, and for the opportunities that are only available in a school setting, and we persevere.

Wow, didn't mean to have my own vent, but there it is. Mostly I wanted to give support and thanks to SkyDiveMom, . Hang in there!

I have experienced some very caring teachers and seen the difficult situation. (I have also experienced some on remote control pilot - just coasting not doing any more than they have to.) I reccomend everyone volunteer in school occassionally to see their challenges.

I was a art helper last year. My son has been doing origami since K and lots of these kids did not known how to fold a piece of paper well IN 3rd GRADE!!!! I was amazed by this. The art instructions confused lots of the kids and my DS didn't even need the directions. He is gifted so that is part of this but there was a whole range of kids in between. Then there are the kids who just can't stay focused who spend half of the art class picking the glue off their hands. I was very surprised by all of this. Seeing the different levels is much different than hearing about it.

I know everyone can't volunteer but try to offer your teachers as much support as you can becuase if you want to make it better for the kids they need your help. Try to let them know what you appreciate because that will encourage them. Send them flowers in the spring and a apple in the fall. They have a very hard job. I think how hard it is to get 2 kids out of the house in the AM. Imagined dealing with a whole class. If the classes were smaller that wuld be much better but I don't see that changing any time soon.

I have a degree in education and opted not to teach because of the politics in my state's schools. Sadly, teachers are discouraged from teaching outside the CRCT box. And instead of being able to teach and expand on topics outside the box, they are stuck. Thankfully, there are MANY teachers that do reach outside the box anyway. I can say that we are VERY lucky to have good teachers for both our kids. DD3.5 (well 4 in one month) isn't in pre-k yet. Her class is full of 3&4 yr olds of all different levels. Her teacher, who is really just a daycare worker, not a certified teacher, has decided to group those that are ready and focus on site words and simple math, etc... that's HUGE! She is absolutely WONDERFUL. DS5.5 has an amazing teacher. She sent home grammar homework for him yesterday. She is able to pull him a bit from the norm of K work to really focus on his needs.

Just like any job, you'll have people that are there just to collect the paycheck - even if their initial intention was to do something that they love. And just like complaining about the President or your boss, in order to make things better, you need to get involved! Be an advocate for your child. Want the best education for your child, but don't forget to support those that are there to help your child with that education!

And that wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just my "vent", I guess. Sorry.

Help! Don't stop Dottie - there aren't enough public school success (or good enough) stories on here as is. I miss acs' voice, for one.

But, I do appreciate your point on negativity. I've already reduced my reading at many sites that I used to enjoy - just wasn't doing me enough good to balance the sympathetic frustration. I'm almost sold on my childrens' suggestion that the adults in the house also need time limits on their computer usage. (Except, of course, for work....)

Parents who home school their kids into selective colleges are remarkable! I am not nearly that talented, so I opt to drive my kids to their best-fit schools instead.

I just attended the open house for my daughter’s high school last night and am (again) thoroughly impressed by how each one of her teachers are so highly qualified and dedicated to working as a team in training their students to think critically and logically.

My kids have been fortunate to have several excellent teachers all through their PreK-middle school. Like any career, there will be individuals with different competencies, motivations and personalities. We too are extremely grateful to all those who exemplify the professional teacher which includes all those who comes here for earnest discussion.

Excellent point Delbows! I confess, my quote above was thinking more about the elementary years, where the GT "sacrifice" seems (to me) to be the greatest.

No fears Kbac, I'll probably never leave completely, .

I've been involved in a number of PM discussions with parents who have kids in public school and have been fatigued by the negative view of education often cited on this board. I feel like much of the positive discussion takes place underground because the negativity can be overwhelming. I miss acs too!

Just one more plug for schools that work. My DD goes to a regular neighborhood public school. The district tests every single second grader for GT screening. By December of second grade, all kids change classes for math, which are leveled. Kids who need more help get it. Kids who need more challenge get that. By 3rd grade, both literacy and math involve changing classes. There is a GT coordinator who comes to the GT math and reading twice a week to assist the teacher in finding ways to challenge the kids. In a poor district, where most press is about how awful the schools are, this seems pretty cool to me. Classes are small (19 this year), and the specialists are amazing. There is a state GT mandate and very high state taxes to help fund it.

I guess I don't blame local schools for failing to perfectly meet the needs of way out outliers who are encountered at considerably less than 1/1000 frequency. I appreciate help and flexibility, but I understand that the school was not designed to educate my kid only and what works for most kids may not work for mine. For one kid in an HG school, accommodation may mean grade skips, mentoring, substituting homework, or even someday potentially concluding that this won't work. I won't think it's the school's fault if we can't make it work. There aren't many places for a kid who wants recess, snack time, and high school academics. In the meantime, we've focused on finding the best possible solution for our situation that allows us to continue doing jobs we love and trained many, many years to obtain.

I didn't start this thread to teacher bash. I don't think anyone did. When people mention "the system" they are talking generalities, not about anyone specific teacher or admin. the article is an advertisement for the documentary, 2 Million Minutes. Can/do our kids compete globally? Do they need to? Those are important questions that I think is worthy of discussion. Is our science/math education as bad as they say? Yes, there are wonderful schools. There are wonderful principles. There are wonderful teachers. But when you start looking at the "system" what percentage do they make up? 10%? 20%. At one point do we decide the system is in need of a overhaul? When I left graduate school, the classes which came behind me where 50% Asian. I have spoken to a couple of engineering friends who say that Indian and Asian students walked circles around the American students.

WHen a governor proposed doing as some other states and setting up math and science schools, he was unilaterally shut down. And the excuse? We don't want to train anymore scientists and engineers and have another Challenger disaster? I'm flummoxed by that comment.

I was told by the Principle of DS's school that they don't do science b/c they have so many holidays to celebrate. When I pressed her that the other school in our district teaches science her comment was that that school is smaller and the science program is run by those parents in a VERY disparaging tone.

And yes, my son had a great teacher last year for K who differentiated for him. I went in and did science several times w/ the kids.

I also volunteered often in my son's 2nd grade class, doing science w/ the kids several times, helping out at all the parties as the teacher requested. I've only ever asked for assistance from a teacher when it involved my child's emotional state. I did ultimately pull both my kids out of the school system b/c as it is setup, their needs would not be met. I felt it was unfair to ask for more since so many kids needed help. My son figured this out for himself when I asked why he didn't speak up to the teacher. He said, "B/c the other kids need to learn this stuff." My 5yr old told me,"If I ask her to change things just for me, she'd have to make a worksheet for me every time for everything." the choice has been made to service the bottom rather than the top as the article addresses. Our district is using every single penny of the stimulus money for special-ed. But I don't think we should settle for this and all decide to homeschool. I think we need to change the system. THere are things that can be done which won't cost any money - it's the attitudes which need to be changed.

And I've recently read from a couple of people who have taught math and science in college....even the best and brightest who took ALgebra, pre-Calc in high school are struggling in college. They just didn't have a firm understanding. That kids haven't been trained in logical thought, application of what they've learned. One quote I saw said that a third of US students when asked how many buses are required to transport soldiers when each bus carries 30 soldiers, gave a decimal answer.

anyhow, I have to run....sorry for the ramble.

My son who learned to read on his own at 2 and was grade levels ahead academically in reading and math at age 7 and who is smarter than I am even though I made straight A's in school would have had problems with origami and arts and crafts because he was born with dyspraxia, a motor learning disability. He has always been very aware that people who don't know him might judge him or his intelligence by his motor skills. He understands that people often have difficulty believing that someone can be both gifted and have a learning disability. What is sad is that there are teachers in our schools who don't understand and don't care to learn more about kids like mine. This is one of many reasons I have to homeschool.

I probably should not post now because I don’t have the time to fully develop this comment.

I would like to offer though; the alternative viewpoint that although a particular school may bend over backwards for a few or many gifted children, the unilateral defense of the entire public school system isn’t warranted based on individual experience and can be perceived as more “political correctness” than sincere high regard. Another example is the parent that lives in or near a large city where the public schools are highly performing with extraordinary academic programs, well appointed facilities staffed with the most educated teachers available and then conclude that the public school system couldn’t be better (for their kid). Similarly, those whose kids attend GT magnates or specialty charters find a very comfortable niche to cheer on the school system. I wish it worked so well for all.

I do respect Ace too for her convictions and defense of the public schools, which seem particularly selfless, but I can’t understand the position that it is harmful or selfish to the whole to remove any child from a system that a parent or student is not satisfied with.

Truly, the above opinion is not directed towards anyone in a malicious manner. My point is that I don’t think anyone here relishes in bashing public schools, but that the critique is based on anything from concern for a particular child to our nation’s future, in general.

I think kids' school success and enjoyment absolutely boils down to parental involvement, whether that's via homeschool or visits to the class to volunteer or just discuss needs. Based on the stories just in this thread, it's clear the number of issues that teachers have to deal with is basically equal to the number of kids in their class - lots!

I was just filling out a volunteer form the teacher sent out, and had made a decision to come in at least 1 morning every 3 weeks or so, despite working full time. I'm lucky to have that flexibility, I know many parents don't. This thread re-confirms that decision to at least pop in from time to time to help, support the teacher, take the pulse so to speak of the environment.

She had also sent out a two page questionnaire asking for parent input on how your child learns, how you think they're doing in reading, writing and math and what goals you'd like for them in these areas, plus room to put more comments. I just really liked the immediate, open communication. (so far, so good!)

My kids get a personalized educations at their private schools. There are schools like theirs out there, but they're rare and if they're private, many people can't afford them. This is why my fantasy school is free.

My point is that individualized education can be done. In fact, it is done every day for kids with disabilities. Why not for bright kids?




There's a law that says they have to do this for 1:1,000,000 kids with disabilities. Why not bright kids too?

I'm one of the people who's very frustrated with the public school system. I'm frustrated on a personal level because I'd love to send my kids to public schools, but I just can't. I'm even more frustrated because the results of our school system are that we don't have enough people who can be scientists or engineers, and too many people are taken in by ideas like hospital death panels.

I know that many, many individual teachers are wonderful people and great teachers, but the problems mostly stem from the system as a whole, which in turn in runs on individuals and the sociology of group behavior: lots of people are unhappy with the status quo but it doesn't change because the ability to create change breaks down in a group. Part of the problem is that the senior people are often the ones who thrive in the dysfunctional system.

I'm sorry if I offend people or put people off by expressing my opinions here. Thing is, I'm tired of feeling obliged to smile placidly and talk about how wonderful the schools are and how hard the teachers work. I know they work hard --- but it's beside the point. The school system is broken, and it won't change until people start making noise.

(Actually, I'm also kind of tired of valid criticisms about schools being labeled as teacher-bashing. (I said this not to be accusatory, but to try to be thought-provoking )

Val

WEll, I think the issue is the internet. If people are perfectly happy w/ their situation, are they spending hours on the net researching something? Probably not. It's the people that have a problem that are searching for answers that are on the messageboards. IT's the beginning of a new school year, many are frustrated w/ the slow pace of the start of the year and are venting, asking questions, looking for answers. For those who get the right response from their school, they are happy to move on with life and leave the messageboards. Those that left behind are the ones who didn't get a good answer from their schools and are still angry and frustrated.

Ah, I should have clarified on "perfectly individualized"...I really meant in a one-on-one sort of way, and if you have found a private school that will do that, I'm thrilled! I work at a private school that claims to do that, but what's "on paper" and "in practice" are two different things. Granted, it's a good deal for the kids that attend, but not the end all it was claimed to be. My son has a pretty custom designed plan at the moment in our public school, but it's a far cry from a one-on-one education at his "readiness level".

Anyway, I of all people shouldn't speak in absolutes, so I do apologize for that. And I didn't mean to bash anyone with my thoughts. I was merely expressing my own frustration at the moment, which is not necessarily with the schools, but rather our collective approach to discussing them. It's an overall feeling that is more about me than (any) you. I'm just weary.

I would LOVE to see grand sweeping changes made in schools everywhere, but realistically speaking for myself, with my baby in 7th...it's just not going to happen in their educational lifetime. As Grinity says.."for the grandchildren", . In the meantime though, I have to make the best of the cards I've been dealt.

Dazey snuck one in on me here! Yes, there is truth to what you say, and perhaps that further highlights why I should personally focus elsewhere, as despite several "glitches" at the moment, I am neither angry nor frustrated, .

I know it's hard for those in the great schools but w/out knowing that the great schools are out there, and hearing all the wonderful stories, those that aren't in great schools won't know what to strive for, what to ask for, or what to expect! SO we need those that are in those great schools, who have fought the hard fight to be beacons in the dark for the rest of us.

I wouldn't exactly call our school great, . But we are doing okay, and I'm overall happy. FWIW, our school probably ranks in the upper "half", but nowhere near the "top". Our demographics are pretty good, and we are not inner city by any stretch...but great is definitely over reaching, LOL!

SkydiveMom - please don't take that article as teacher bashing. I think you highlight beautifully what the issues are. Some of my very good friends are teachers and I know what they are up against. I was fortunate that my kids had pretty good teachers and it wasn't enough. I think most teachers are dealing the cards they've been dealt by the system.

Yesterday I listened to a webinar for teachers on Differentiation in the classroom. It was given by a teacher. She spoke about how she was reactionary in her approach to differentiation and she had to learn to be PROACTIVE in her approach. It transformed how she tuaght her classes. Of course this is easier if you have fewer levels to contend with and don't have huge behaviour problems. From talking w/ teachers, it only takes the one kid to ruin your entire year. A friend said that her son's teacher said they didn't do science that year which he normally does a lot of, b/c of one kid who took up so much time.

I live in a good socio-economic area. It's mostly white, middle to high class - free lunch percentage is VERY low. And there has been few if any behaviour issues in any of my kids classes. My friends have told me stories from their schools that make my skin crawl but we have no such thing at our school. There still is the pervasive idea that all kids are the same, should be treated the same, no subject acceleration, no grade skips, little Johnny must sit and wait for the other kids to catch up mentality. This is the attitude that needs changing. The idea that gifted kids will challenge themselves, that truely gifted kids don't get bored, that kids can wait until high school to take AP classes. THis is what the article is addressing and what I think the film 2Million minutes will address. I haven't seen the films yet but my friend ordered them and it'll be interesting watch. Supposedly, the final installment of 2 Million minutes gives the solution to the US's problems of neglecting the brightest kids and lack of a good science/math education in the US.

So I agree when Skydivemom say's



which I think is the message behind the documentary.

Has anyone watched the documentary?

I think it's hard in our day-to-day quest to meet our own kids' needs to look past the faces of education that we see: particularly the principals, teachers,counselors, even individual schools... and realize that they are not the problem (and in fact, are frequently part of individual solutions/successes I read about on this board).

The issue as I see it is the mentality in our country about education: that the biggest problem that needs to be solved is to bring everyone up to a lowest-common-denominator type of education; that if the gifted are so bright, then they need no special help because they can learn on their own; failing to acknowlege that the intellectually-talented are one of our nation's greatest assets (or worse that it's somehow politically incorrect to acknowledge at all that some people are born intellectually-talented); that more homework/hours in school = better education; that spending more money means getting better results; that we shouldn't be looking elsewhere in the world for better educational ideas because we're us and, after all, we're the most powerful nation on Earth....

Add to that the way that extracurricular activities go these days: if my DS7 wants to play an in-season sport, then there are 2-3 practices per week plus weekend games. He's SEVEN!!!! What's up with that? He's not even all THAT interested -- he just wants to try it out to see if he enjoys it. (Sorry -- that topic gets me going...)

I think that our joint frustration is that even when we're lucky enough to encounter a great teacher and a great principal in a great school, the system and culture generally don't make it easy. They don't seem to prioritize the things we think they should.

In my opinion, this is the fight worth fighting, and it seems like it's the message the movie is trying to put out there. Our educational model isn't working, and other countries' models are working better. We need to acknowledge that and fix it, or pay the consequences.

So, here's my question (yes, I'm FINALLY getting to my question): what are we doing to change the SYSTEM that we all know is broken? I know we're all in there slugging for our own DDs and DSs, which is more than enough stuff on our plates, but has anyone got any ideas on working towards bigger change? Maybe I'm just feeling pie-in-the-sky at the moment, or maybe I'm out of touch and you're all already very involved in bigger picture efforts to effect change. DH and I are actively trying to get changes to our DSs' school system and not just at the class/school level. But are there things you guys are doing on a larger scale?

Thanks for letting me get on my soapbox. I wish all of you a wonderful weekend!

Mama22Gs - thank you for your post! What she said!

Floridamama - I've only seen the youtube clips of the documentary. My friend has ordered all 4 DVDS so I'll be viewing them in a week or two. The first 2Million minutes aired a year or two ago and followed 2 high school students each from the US, China and India. The next two DVDs each focus on education in India and China, the last and fourth documentary purports to give the solution to our *crisis.* I'm quite interested in what they perceive the solution to be.


And when I spoke w/ my DS's K teacher, she emphatically said they couldn't teach 1st grade work in K. Yet, he was writing and discussing books on a 1st grade level (he had to write the main character, plot, resolution, and setting), he brought home worksheets on fractions etc. I think she was doing it "under the table." She had him and 2 other boys in a reading group w/in 4 weeks of school. The rest of the class started in February.

And if you read SwitchedonMom's blog, the Principle had to go against ALL the higher ups in order to admit a previously homeschooled girl at her real academic level rather than put her w/ her age mates. those are the people we need to be applauding and supporting!

I have two thoughts that are always subdivided in my head. The mom and the teacher. And they rarely line up!

I have to say though that I greatly appreciate this board. I learned here that it is okay to advocate and DEMAND that my son receive an appropriate education. I felt much braver in meetings and had more research than anyone else in the room. THIS board gave me the strength to realize that my son's private gifted school was a big shiny pamphlet with nothing inside it...

We pulled him and he's in a public charter school now. It is a completely different universe and I cannot shout enough from the rooftops about how fantastic it's been so far. I know that our situation isn't for everyone but it's been amazing. I was expecting to fight... instead I got a "well OF COURSE we'll give your 1st grader 4th grade level books, why would we want to bore him?" I stood dumbfounded. Then I asked if I could substitute his math homework for something more challenging. I got an note from his teacher (different than reading) that she'd be getting a higher level workbook for him soon and she'd also use that in class. When you read stories about public education in many places, NONE of this is supposed to happen. But we somehow found it... and it's free.

Now the teacher in me- I have to defend teachers here only because of one thing- I spent two years in school for my credential and I received ONE HOUR of gifted education training. Just one. I received about 80 hours, plus one full separate class on special education needs. Most teachers do not have a clue that there are kids starting in their kindergarten class that have already mastered the 1st grade curriculum, let alone the K curriculum. Once they figure it out, the good ones make changes if they can. But there are so many levels of bureaucracy, meetings, paperwork and crap on top of that that sometimes you just give up and forget about it.

The system is broken. Most teachers know it. The unions are too powerful, the administration is bogged down in paperwork, the tests are too plentiful and not useful. And it's not the teachers' fault... but the teachers have to bear some responsibility for not insisting on change, for not forcing the issues of ability grouping and not demanding higher expectations of their colleagues and students.

I can say that from the inside, the charter school system works. I've taught and been an adminstrator in two different schools and my son attends a completely different one. I'd like to see more individualized education for all students- one that takes into account their strengths and weaknesses as people, not just their bar graph post-testing.

If we applied the same level of interest to academics as we do to sports, then problem solved. Most of the attention goes to sports, but the GT kids and their academically focused classmates will carry the water for their generation.

They become the doctors, the engineers, the leaders - and make things happen. Most of the jocks are washed up when they are 22. I was both and IMHO I loved playing, but in retrospect, my time would have been better spent in a book. I should have taken a lot more classes like accounting, law, finance - easy stuff and necessary as you move up in the real world.

CAMom - thank you so much for your perspective! We have no charter schools where I live. I hear the bureaucracy for starting one is huge. BUt one teacher has navigated the waters and one is supposed to be opening next year. It's only K-2 for now. It'll be interesting to see how it goes. I may try to teach some science courses there if the school survives.

As for some perception of negativity on the board lately, it seems to me that the beginning of the school year last year brought on more fear and worry and trouble for many people on the forum. The new year can make for an uptick in the number of negative experiences until solutions have time to get sorted out.

Positive stories are always welcome, but I hope we can also encourage people with frustrations--whether personal or systemic--to share them. It's hard to solve problems we can't discuss.

Just my perspective...

I plead guilty to adding to the recent negativity, but for me, this is my only safe place to vent. And it is mostly just venting--I'm (mostly) sure that when I put my diplomacy hat on and seriously begin my conversations with DD's teacher and the school, I'll start to see positive movement. And I promise to post about it.

I just had to add that i am sorry that my posting came across as teacher bashing - I was a teacher in the public schools for almost 15 years before I left the profession. My last year of teaching K was one I will always remember - I had 28 kids in my classroom with no aide....2 asperger's children, 1 deaf child who had a sign language interp. and I had to wear a special microphone for him and 12 children with IEP's. I worked in a migrant farm area so many, many of the families did not speak English. I split myself into so many pieces trying to meet the needs of all my kids. I have seen so many different sides of things and one of the reasons why I left was because I was starting to see so many teachers (myself included) being told that we couldn't be creative in our teaching methods and that we needed to focus on improving test scores -the system is broken in my opinion and many things need to change.

DazedandConfused - many of your comments voice exactly what I am wanting to say. I am sorry that I am one of the negative voices on the board lately- this starting of the school year was really, really rough and probably one of the hardest things i have ever had to deal with to date with DS...you have no idea how much it helped just being able to "spill" all of my worries and frustration so that it wasn't put out on the table at home. For the future I will try to find a new venting spot because I would not want to drive someone away from the board because of all the negativity.

Oh my...heavens. That year must have been a nightmare. So sorry.

I agree with Kriston that airing frustrations is appropriate on this board. We all need to a place vent or to make valid criticisms. In fact, there have been times when this board has shown me that I'm not the only person facing a certain problem. I'm uncomfortable with like the idea of people feeling obliged to sound positive when things around them are dysfunctional.

Problems don't get solved unless they get aired. Let's face it: large-scale changes often start with a small group of troublemakers. As an example, the British crown presumably considered our founding fathers to be nothing but a bunch of negative troublemakers. Ditto for at least some captains of industry when people began to advocate for limits on child labor. And the voting rights movements. And the civil rights movement...and and and.

Just my 2c.

Val




Val

On the other hand, people should feel confortable sharing success stories. My dd is (and has always been) in an almost perfect school situation. I almost feel guilty that we have never had to struggle and that her needs are for the most part met by her school.

Personally, I hope that people will continue to share their stories--both positive and the negative. The reality is that there are both positive and negative environments and teachers.

Mostly I think that the sharing of stories helps us to gain perspective about our own situations. Sometimes I read what someone has written and I think, "OK, I'm not crazy. It really IS reasonable to expect 'x'." I need that anecdotal evidence (that it could better) in order to keep going back and advocating for my children.

Other times I read something and I think, "Wow. That situation ______ wrote about is appalling. I guess I should at least appreciate "x" in my own situation".

There are a lot of stories that have been shared here that truly ARE appalling. Those need to be part of the ongoing conversation about what works and what doesn't work. Yes, teachers are stretched (and I speak from first hand experience), but there is no excuse for ridiculous decisions like refusing to allow a child to read books at their reading level (excepting those with content too mature for an elementary classroom), or for making a child who has fully developed number sense sit and color in counting sheets.

We all need help sometimes. This may be a weird analogy, but I recall being hospitalized for an infection about 10-12 years ago. Although I am generally able to advocate for myself unabashedly, being hospitalized completely undermined my sense of self. People would come into my room without nametages and without introducing themselves, tell me something, leave, and then be followed an hour later by someone else without a nametag who would tell me something completely different. I remember getting out of the hospital and wanting to smack myself upside the head for being so meek while I was there. I allowed all of the experts to talk at me and I felt powerless to challenge or question what they said. Afterall, my wellbeing was in their hands, right? As a result, I spent the entire time feeling confused and a bit frightened. If I'm ever hospitalized again, I hope I am smart enough to have someone else with me who can ask the tough questions on my behalf.

It's easy to feel that way with our schools as well. We are entrusting our children to other adults. We don't want to offend the experts who will be responsible for our childrens' wellbeing, and, "on our own", we can easily be overwhelmed by the apparent confidence of the "experts". Coming to a place like this is a bit like having someone else in the room with you when you are a patient and feeling vulnerable. Other parents can help us confirm our instincts and may even offer advice; or they can gently question our reactions and help us to view things from another perspective. Either way, very valuable indeed.

Great analogy Taminy! I don't know how many times I questioned myself "Who am I to question the teacher? After all, she's the one trained in teaching? Who am I to ask for more for my child or to have his educational needs met?" That's why I pulled my kids out of school. How can I ask for more for advanced reader when Johnny can't read? But then at times I get resentful b/c I pay school taxes just like everyone else and now in addition, I have to foot that bill and a HSing bill as well.


Belle - I can only imagine how difficult it is to teach in such an environment. Here with 24kids, the teacher has a full-time aide and I know it's still difficult for her to meet all the kids' needs. And the kids aren't even as challenging as what you had.

I know the year has been tough for you Belle. You can always vent to me, just send me a PM. 8-) But I do feel this board is the place to vent, and ask for support and ideas on how to move forward. As well as discussing more global issues which face education.

Oh please don't go! The consensus seems to be that this sort of thing helps, so please continue to work things through. I never suggested that people need to feel obliged to post positively. I was merely explaining why I might choose to step back (for my own mental health!!!)

Great analogy Taminy. I had a similar situation when my preemie daughter was born. When I was first admitted, that baby was coming and going at every shift change, . That was a VERY uncomfortable feeling! (And boy did I know a lot about birthing babies when I went back to have #3!)

I promise, this is my last say on the subject, .

I think there is a huge difference between expressing frustration with a given situation as Belle has been doing and making blanket statements about the entire system being broken. I did a multi-state search for schools last year and didn't find a single private school willing to negotiate, develop an individualized curriculum, or do anything close to what I've gotten in public schools. I accept that there are areas with dreadful public schools that only look at lowest common denominator, but there are also areas quite committed and even proactive in meeting the needs of HG kids. When public schools are collectively bashed, those schools and efforts are ignored. I celebrate a place to bash individual schools, teachers, and principals, but I think it's unfair to extend that to all public schools or the entire system being broken.

I am fortunate not to have any kid with very special needs, but I find it hard to believe most those kids get their needs perfectly met by the school system.



I share your frustration at not having access to good public schools. That's not ok and worth complaining about. As you've discussed before, there are many other reasons that we struggle to produce scientists having to do with politics, NIH funding, and the length of the process more than the capacity to do the work. I saw ridiculously bright people drop out like flies in academia because of bad advisors, a poor NIH funding climate, and political infighting within a department. One of my friends who is still in the system has an MD/PhD, residency, fellowship, post-doc for years, major grant funding, assistant professor job, and still moonlights on the side to afford rent where he lives at 40+ years old. Those who didn't want to moonlight all weekend and not see their children have left to find higher paying situations. Having a better elementary school wouldn't fix that situation.

I agree that we have a primary problem with culture, but I resist blaming the schools for that. At one of the schools attended by my kids, there are weapons brought to school at elementary, more than 50% on free lunch, little parental involvement, and horrifying socio-economic problems (we are asked to send food on a regular basis to stock a pantry to help families). I suspect most of the kids and families are dealing with issues that make learning to read well not a high priority for them. I suspect that even a phenomenal teacher has little chance of making great progress in that situation.

Now, on the hospital death panels easy buy-in, you'll get nothing but agreement from me .

Just something to think about:

The ongoing debate in this country about schools has accumulated some troubling phrases that have been picked up as "truisms". These phrases/ideas are used so reflexively now that I think we often don't even realize how presumptive they are.

I would like to gently suggest that we be very careful/thoughtful in the way in which we speak about the impact of poverty on our public schools. Yes, it is true that poverty has had a significant impact on public education. However, it does not follow that families living in poverty don't care about their childrens' education. Disinterested/neglectful parents can be found across our socio-economic spectrum. Although it is easy to think that dininterest in education goes hand in glove with poverty, in my experience the truth is something quite different. I respectfully suggest we consider that:

*having time to volunteer in school or to come to programs during the school day (or even in the evening)requires some combination of the following: the ability to take unpaid time off; a job with flexible hours; a parent who does not have to work full time in order to keep food on the table; a way to get to and from school quickly and efficiently so as not to double/triple the time needed to visit the classroom (big difference in travel time if you don't have private transportation). When we don't see certain parents in our school buildings it is easy to think they don't care, when in fact there may simply be too many barriers to their being there.

*Allotting time for visiting the school outside of work hours is much easier if you have a neighborhood grocery store and/or onsite laundry (so that you can cook, sleep or clean while it is being accomplished).

*The collective cultural beliefs about race, ethnicity and poverty impact the interactions between staff and families. As has been shared so many times on this forum, it can be difficult to find a receptive audience for our concerns about our children. That is multiplied ten times over when you introduce language barriers, cultural barriers and educational barriers. Many of us hate being treated like "those parents", so we can perhaps easily understand the way in which feeling judged decreases a willingness/desire to be involved. Being considered one of "those parents" means something different when applied to parents who come from impoverished urban neighborhoods. Yet the impact is similar. It is unquestionably a deterrant to school involvement.

Collectively speaking, this isn't a case of good guys/bad guys. There are individuals "proving" and "disproving" the common assumptions on both sides of the system.

Sorry for the long post and please know that this is not a response to any individual comments. I have great faith in the positive intentions of everyone here. I just wanted to offer some thoughts about the way in which the language of the national discussion impacts our understandings of what is happening "on the ground" in our public schools.

Taminy-
I do understand your point. However, I have heard way too many parents who believe that educating kids is "not their job". They pay their tax dollars and hand them over and forget about it. This goes across the spectrum rich to poor.

All of our charter schools REQUIRE 30 hours of volunteer time. No matter what, no exceptions. If you don't do it, your kid can be removed at the end of the year. However, they do make and grant exceptions for cases of extreme hardship. Anyone in the child's family can do the volunteer hours. When I was at the high school, many times the kids did their own hours. At that school in particular, more than 50% of my kids lived in foster care and nearly all of them had been in juvenile hall. They were committed to making a change in their lives.

When held to the fire, so to speak, parents find ways. They cut out butterflies at home, make flash cards, sharpen pencils, come to board meetings- they find ways to make it work. 30% of my son's school is on the free lunch program and I'd make an educated guess that 30-40% do not speak English at home. But the major difference is that ALL the parents are committed to their child's education no matter what happens.

I'd also just like to add that "parental involvement" does not have to include volunteer hours only. When I was teaching in Title I schools, I would have been THRILLED to find out that a parent sat down with his or her child and looked at homework. It would have been great to know that parents asked their children about what was going on at school each day. However, I know it rarely happened, because when I spoke with parents at conferences (those who showed up), I was often met with blank stares when discussing major projects, labs in which we blew stuff up, or even who their children were currently dating.

When I was a kid, my parents both worked full time and never set foot in the school as a volunteer. However, every night around the dinner table (yes, it was a family rule that we all eat together), my brother and I had to describe something new that we learned that day. It didn't necessarily have to be academic - it could've have been as simple as "I learned I can't trust Angela with a secret, because she....." This facilitated all sorts of discussion, and it allowed my parents to be involved without leading a reading group, cutting out paper letters, or taking time off work. I never missed them at school, but I sure would have missed the bonding that came with sharing ideas, trials, and the day-to-day issues that arise when families spend 8 hours apart. It's so simple, and yet in my experience, not enough parents do it.

I don't disagree with either of the above posts. I agree that there are many ways to be involved and that it is important. My point was regarding the assumptions implicit in high poverty=neglectful/disinterested parenting. These are two different states of existence that are often reflexively paired as if they go hand in hand. My point about the barriers to school based involvement was speaking to the fact that when parents are not visible in the schools, it is easy to assume a lack of involvement/interest.

In my own school our parent involvement has increased significantly over the course of the past 10-15 years, even as our poverty rate has continued to grow. Of course, if you measured it by PTO membership, it would be easy to miss. So how has it grown? It has grown in responsiveness to notes home, availability for phone calls, participation in parent teacher conferences. Why has it grown? Honestly I think it is the result of a lot of frank conversations in staff meetings about our assumptions, and about how those assumptions were discouraging involvement. We had to take a look at ourselves and our practice in order to change the response we recieved from parents. It was uncomfortable, but it was also enlightening. Yes, we continue to have some uninvolved and/or neglectful parents. We have some parents who behave like five year olds and some parents who believe it is the school's job to provide the education. However, changing our assumptions subtly shifted the way in which we communicated and responded to families. It made all the difference.

Thank you SkydiveMom for the posting!

I am one of those who felt frustration abt how things are going lately. I agree that timing and a change of environment resulted in this. I may have inevidently be frustrated myself of having to move. I apologise for the negativities.

Except when it comes to athletics. Kids with athletic talent are fawned over by just about everyone in our society, while kids with academic talent are ignored or hidden.

You're right though, a lot of the fault does lie with the Equality Police. Every year they're out in force to beat teachers (of which I am also one) into submission with a new law about mainstreaming kids whose education would be better served by full-time special ed placement, and while they're at it, they remind us that even if little Janey can work four-dimensional equations at the age of eight, we can't give her any special treatment.

I also fault the culture common to many educators that considers classroom management a more important and prestigious skill than teaching. Gifted educators are scoffed at for wanting to teach "the easy kids" - and reminding the ignorami who say this that those "easy kids" can devour the complete works of Shakespeare in the time it takes an average child to make it through Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone never seems to help.

I've known plenty of teachers who, like SkydiveMom, really do care about gifted kids' education but have enough trouble reaching the end of the day without a kid receiving a serious head injury. Heck, during my substitute days, I WAS that teacher more than once. But I also agree with everyone here who's saying that nothing is going to change until those teachers start demanding the same framework, assistance, and training for GT that they get for special ed.