Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 210 guests, and 14 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
    #5250 12/04/07 12:34 PM
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 180
    Mom2LA Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 180
    More often than not I have read posts here about schools that have minimal support for GT kids. I really hate reading about schools who have the attitude of "well he/she's fine, they're excelling, what more do you want?" Is that really the norm? Is so little really being done for our kids that are gifted?

    I really don't know what the current thinking is on what is best for GT programs in schools. My dd gets pulled out of 2nd grade to go to her GT class once a week for 2.5hrs. Her classroom has leveled group work in spelling, reading and math. Dd's teacher has sent home additional homework for dd to improve her critical thinking skills and writing (this is above and beyond any classwork). She said dd is ready to go on in areas the rest of the class aren't even near yet thus the extra work. From the sounds of it, dd's school is doing something right compared to what Ive read here. Is this a correct assumption?

    Reading what some schools are doing and saying...it makes me want to march with a picket sign and shout that education reform on a national level is needed for our kids! Do you think anyone would hear? Ugh. Ok, off my soap box now...not sure where that came from! I was cleaning...maybe its the fumes? wink


    Mom2LA #5253 12/04/07 01:34 PM
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Around here, the buzzword is "differentiation," though that means teachers have to work A LOT harder or give the kids very little.

    There's no pull-out until 3rd grade, and then only once a week and only in math. At 5th grade, it's daily pull-out in math. Never reading. Beyond that, you're at the mercy of the classroom teacher, and quality of differentiation varies wildly. My state requires ID of gifted kids, but no services whatsoever are required by law once GT kids are ID'd.

    It sounds like you got a teacher who's at least trying to differentiate well. We batted 50%: K teacher was incredible, 1st grade teacher did nothing.

    The POGS group I'm part of is pushing for clustering in the hopes that it might give us better quality of education for ALL kids, GT kids included. But I'm not holding my breath. Change is slow to nonexistent in this neck of the woods... frown


    Kriston
    Kriston #5257 12/04/07 01:47 PM
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    acs Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    I was just thinking that sometimes this board may not be representative of the general population of HG+ kids. I mean, the people who are here have come here seeking help. Maybe the ones whose needs are met at their local school are less likely to come looking. Of course, I am quite sure that there are plenty of kids who are in lousy situations whose parents aren't in a position to look for help. But I still suspect that the the population of the online support community may be skewed towards those who are most frustrated.

    I remember reading in Ruf's book that virtually all level 4 kids will need to be homeschooled at one time or another. She based this on her research population who had come to her practice for testing. To my knowledge, she had not sought out these families; they had come to her. So her statement would have been more accurate to say that "of level 4 children *who seek professional testing* virtually all would require homeschooling." There may be level 4 kids out there who are doing fine w/o homeschooling, but since they are doing well, their families never sought professional testing. Maybe there aren't any kid like this, but we just don't know because nobody has done that study. Am I making sense?

    acs #5260 12/04/07 02:02 PM
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Yup. Good point. That's a logical fallacy you caught. Self-selecting groups may fit a certain pattern, but the general population--even the general population of HG+ kids--may not.

    I do agree with Ruf, however, that without some sort of significant accomodation--home schooling, grade acceleration, big-time differentiation with supportive teachers, etc.--most (not all) HG+ kids are going to have a tough time in most (not all) public school classrooms. It only stands to reason. According to a presentation on acceleration by a local GT coordinator that I just saw this weekend, ND kids regularly need 7-8 repetitions of something to learn it (and this is the number of reps that teachers usually shoot for), while GT kids usually need exposure only 1-3 times. More repetitions can actually cause GT kids to *mislearn or forget* the information! So more exposure to the same thing is not only *not better*, it can be *actively worse*!

    That right there tells me that the "average" GT kid is not going to be well-served by the "average" ND classroom. GT kids just don't fit the mold, and a regular classroom can't really serve both GT and ND kids at the same time without shortchanging someone. That's bound to be a problem for a HG+ kid!


    Kriston
    Kriston #5261 12/04/07 02:12 PM
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    acs Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    Originally Posted by Kriston
    According to a presentation on acceleration by a local GT coordinator that I just saw this weekend, ND kids regularly need 7-8 repetitions of something to learn it (and this is the number of reps that teachers usually shoot for), while GT kids usually need exposure only 1-3 times. More repetitions can actually cause GT kids to *mislearn or forget* the information! So more exposure to the same thing is not only *not better*, it can be *actively worse*!

    I have loved that data and use it all the time. But, I do think there is another option, a time-honored way to handle the problem for *some* HG+ kids. The way I, DS, many of you, and my whole family has handled this is by making sure we have a good book in our desk to read. I seriously doubt I paid any attention to what the teacher said after the first or second time because I was absorbed in my novel. Now if I had a teacher who took my book away, then my parents would have had to homeschool me without a doubt!!

    acs #5262 12/04/07 02:20 PM
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Acs,
    You make an excellent point! This is certainly a skewed sample. Here's a map of legislation by state. http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/StatePolicy.aspx

    One needs to remember that for most of the GT world "LOG" is unknown. For most of the educational world, "LOG" is unknown. This is cutting edge material. Your school is doing a wonderful job at providing groups for reading, spelling and math. Our elementary school only had reading groups, and for most of those years my son was many levels ahead of the next highest leveled kid. Did the school suggest he move to a different classroom for reading? No, they told us that they have "handfuls" of kids like him in the Middle School. Would have have been placed with those handfuls, no, they believe in heterogeneous grouping.

    With all that, DS had a wonderful year in 3rd grade with no special accomidations - only that he happened to have a teacher who "got" him. Individual teacher can make all the difference. As wonderful as this teacher was, I wonder if part of the reason that things went well was that DS was recovering from his worst year of school ever. If he had started the year in as good a shape as he ended it, I'll bet he wouldn't have made much progress.

    I'm so glad your school can even "see" your daughters difference. My son is reading "The Giver" at school (again) and I'm thinking that LOG is this society's "Red."

    Trinity

    acs #5264 12/04/07 02:40 PM
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Originally Posted by acs
    I have loved that data and use it all the time. But, I do think there is another option, a time-honored way to handle the problem for *some* HG+ kids. The way I, DS, many of you, and my whole family has handled this is by making sure we have a good book in our desk to read. I seriously doubt I paid any attention to what the teacher said after the first or second time because I was absorbed in my novel. Now if I had a teacher who took my book away, then my parents would have had to homeschool me without a doubt!!


    But *some* GT kids (or *many*, if the drop-out rates I've heard for GT kids are accurate...) are not great at that sort of self-entertaining. And really, why should they have to be? (Especially at age 6, my DS's age!) It is the school's *job* to educate these kids. It's why we pay taxes, it's why we send them to the school building. It's the reason public school exists. If the school can't teach them, then I don't see that a novel in the desk is really an adequate substitute, especially when there are other options like GT schools or home schooling. Self-directed work like reading novels during class (or doing homework or writing letters...) keeps kids from going insane or mislearning things, but it isn't education!

    This is when I start getting bugged by the notion that HG+ kids "should" be in the public schools. What you're describing is babysitting at best. (Or something worse, since my babysitter doesn't expect the kids to entertain themselves while she does something else and pays no attention to them! Really, that's warehousing!)

    That kids read to keep themselves busy is one thing. But I gotta say, that you think reading in class is "a time-honored way to handle the problem" is disconcerting to me. Shouldn't we insist on more? on better?

    I don't mean to be argumentative, but I really do find this pov to be troubling...


    Kriston
    Dottie #5265 12/04/07 02:48 PM
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    And, Dottie, clearly the teacher can make all the difference.

    I don't for one second believe that there are no HG+ kids who thrive in ND classrooms. With the right teacher and good differentiation, an HG+ kid can be very well-placed in an ND classroom.

    But it's so luck-of-the-draw. A bad teacher can just ruin a kid, at least for the time the kid is in that class. And I would argue--as I did in a previous post--that a great teacher and good differentiation *IS* a significant accommodation. It means somebody is teaching the GT kid, paying attention to his/her needs and development. That's what is needed.

    It's just that in the vast majority of ND classrooms, it takes significant accommodation for the HG+ child to get that attention.

    FWIW...


    Kriston
    Mom2LA #5267 12/04/07 03:09 PM
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 982
    L
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    L
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 982
    In our small town school in Oklahoma there is only minimal support for GT kids--a one hour a week pullout and they are not allowed to work above grade level. All of my son's gifted friends are in public school and two of their mothers are public school teachers. He has one friend his age who is in the gifted pull out program. My son is working grade levels above his friend. My son's reading ability and vocabulary seem at a much higher level than his friend's and even my son's math level is higher, even with the disabilities--because I do everything I can to let him learn in spite of his difficulties. It believe it is so wrong to hold back kids for physical problems and our state gifted coordinator agrees but says there is nothing she can do unless our laws are changed. The laws will not change because nobody seems to care except me.

    For twice exceptional kids in our state there is nothing. Kids with mild physical disabilities, like my son, are required to be at a point where they are failing before they will be given OT or PT.

    My son started reading and spelling without being taught at age 2 1/2 and doing math in his head including math with negative numbers and some multiplication before he was old enough to start Kindergarten, but because of mild hypotonia and sensory issues, he had difficulty with drawing, handwriting and coloring in the lines. Even though he was reading at about a 5th grade level and also advanced in math and made what normally would have been passing scores on what I assume was an end of first grade test to see if he could skip 1st grade, the Kindergarten teacher recommended holding him back in a transitional first grade so he could learn to color in the lines better. She felt that he didn't need to learn anything at all other than coloring and handwriting because he already read and did math above grade level. I asked a first grade teacher, who has gifted adult sons for advice. She told me if her sons had been as highly gifted as mine she would have homeschooled and that it was my duty as a parent to see that he got an appropriate education and that it would not happen at that school. I don't know why she thought my son was highly gifted because he had not taken any kind of IQ test and still hasn't, but I did mention to her that he had an adult half brother who is highly gifted that did similar things as a child and she had listened to him talk and I showed her samples of the work he was able to do at home.

    So I absolutely have to homeschool or my son does not have a chance to succeed. A homeschool mom who noticed my son told me before my son even started school that I would have to homeschool and I didn't believe her. I sent her an email telling her she was right and she replied that she knew I would have to find out what she called the "cold, hard facts of public school education" on my own. But this is a small town in Oklahoma and I know other places are better for gifted kids.

    Mom2LA #5268 12/04/07 03:29 PM
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 1,783
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 1,783
    Originally Posted by Tammiane
    More often than not I have read posts here about schools that have minimal support for GT kids. I really hate reading about schools who have the attitude of "well he/she's fine, they're excelling, what more do you want?" Is that really the norm? Is so little really being done for our kids that are gifted?

    I really don't know what the current thinking is on what is best for GT programs in schools. My dd gets pulled out of 2nd grade to go to her GT class once a week for 2.5hrs. Her classroom has leveled group work in spelling, reading and math. Dd's teacher has sent home additional homework for dd to improve her critical thinking skills and writing (this is above and beyond any classwork). She said dd is ready to go on in areas the rest of the class aren't even near yet thus the extra work. From the sounds of it, dd's school is doing something right compared to what Ive read here. Is this a correct assumption?

    Tammianne, I don't know what the norm is but I do know that what you have described sounds like nirvana compared to the school my kids are in. There is no state mandate for GT ed. There are no pullouts. The kids are not identified until 4th grade. Then they are "clustered" within heterogeneous classrooms. There is little funding: $10 per identified GT student per year. No services are provided before 4th grade. There is "differentiated" curriculum in name only. They do not allow subject acceleration due to "scheduling difficulties."

    I have volunteered at this school over 20hrs/month for 3 years. I don't know what more I can do! I am currently teaching science in my son's K class and math in my daughter's 3rd grade class. For the math I am creating the lesson plans and teaching the class for an hour each week. For the science, I get a lesson plan from the teacher and give a 1/2 hour lesson to a group of kids once a week. I am doing it for the kids but I am tired of doing other people's jobs for no pay.

    Last edited by Cathy A; 12/04/07 04:15 PM.
    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

    Moderated by  M-Moderator, Mark D. 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    New, and you'd think I'd have a clue...
    by astronomama - 03/24/24 06:01 AM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    Son 2e, wide discrepancy between CogAT-Terranova
    by astronomama - 03/23/24 07:21 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5