Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Recommend a good book on emotional OE?

My DD5 has always been very sensitive and very intense. It seems that my parenting strategies are just not working well with her lately, and we're having many, many meltdowns over small issues. Yesterday, she had a 15 minute meltdown because I put milk on her cereal and she wanted it dry. Today, we had one because I asked her to clean up something she left out. The list goes on and on. I expect these issues with 2 year olds, but not so much with 5 year olds.

We're starting kindergarten next month, and I need a better way to deal with this behavior before I have to have her somewhere on time 5 afternoons a week. I'm pulling my hair out. Is this normal for kids with emotional OE? It's just so over the top. Every obstacle is a crisis, and every little bump results in shrieking and tears.

Is there a book that specifically deals with emotional OE and how to handle it? Or a book that covers it in greater depth than most gifted parenting books? Most have just one little section that mostly describes it rather than explaining how to deal with it.

Please help me save my sanity. Thanks in advance!
Dawn

I can't think of a book name, but check out SENG (Supporting the emotional needs of the gifted) I got a lot of good info from them.
We went through the same thing with DD6 when she was 5. Once she started school though we noticed a huge improvement and a dramatic decrease in meltdowns. I think part of it was that she was nervous about starting all day kindergarten, but at the same time bored with the laziness of summer vacation.
It took some time, but we've figured out clues that it is going to be a "meltdown" kind of day. Usually for us, they occur more often when we've had 4 days of craziness where we've not been able to let her have some "me" time doing what she wants, how she wants.(Why 4 days, I don't know, but that is her pattern, so we go with it. )
I'm also fairly convinced that they correlate pretty heavily with growth spurts. She gets more grouchy and more prone to meltdowns right before I notice that she no longer fits into her clothes.
There were definitely days I thought I'd stepped back in time and was dealing with a 40lb 2 year old, rather than a 5yr old. It was so bad one day that I carried her kicking and screaming out of the store, then buckled her into her carseat and stood outside the car door until she calmed down because I didn't want to be in the car with all of her noise!
Keep taking deep breaths and reminding yourself that it is only a phase and that it too shall pass.

Hi

I'm with Kerry on this one. This year, after 3 weeks of hell in his first term of a new school where he was grade skipped, suddenly it was wow. No dramas, no melt downs. We get the occasional off week, like now where he has a constant cough (left over from a cold) and he isn't sleeping well and we agree with his teacher that this week if anyone says black he will say white but even this is a far cry from the melt downs we used to get.

He does still play out when there are big changes in the offing but is definitely better able to cope with his feelings and dealing with his anxiety. We had terrible melt downs when he was 4/5 over exact same stuff, didn't want milk on cereal, next day did. Ask what's for breakfast, Mon, Tue, Wed - Toast, wake up Thurs make toast - major melt down don't want toast want cereal! Or - make toast for a week cut into squares, then he wants triangles and it,s all hell on.

In the end we did get a bit of advice from his pysch that he was trying to be in control of everything and did need to learn that he was only 5 and not in control, and also that by making it clear to him that he wasn't in control but had grown ups to make decisions for him and by taking away some of the decisions he had to make (ie not asking him what he wanted for breakfast but just giving him it) actually was better for him as he would then realise that the responibility of decision making wasn't all on him. DH did say that I gave him too many choices and I think because our kids are so bright at such a young age we do treat them more like little adults but as was pointed out to me they might be bright but emotionally they are still very young and by taking away some of the choices and decision making we give them back the security of knowing that the grown ups really are in charge.

I think school probably helps to a degree too (once they get over their initial anxiety) because teachers are very good at giving the message that they are in charge and that at school there are rules to follow and codes to obey and I think that probably helps their security. Well thats our experience, not sure if that helps?

Hi, thanks so much for the replies! They help immensely. Just knowing that there's light at the end of the tunnel is a relief in and of itself. I think she probably is having some anxiety about starting school, especially since we're still talking about schools (though we have her enrolled for K).

I've been trying to keep her actively learning through the summer, but she learns so fast and I'm also busy with our baby twins. I'll try setting up more projects for her the night before and see if that helps. She is *constantly* asking for 'something new to do'. I don't know if she's spoiled or just needs new things for her brain to be interested. We're always getting new books from the library at least.

Spook, your comment about too many choices really made me think. DD has always been so self-determined that I have always tried to give her as many choices as possible. Maybe we've ended up giving her too many. Lately, I have noticed her trying to make decisions about all kinds of things, including things that she doesn't get choices on. I'm going to start working on this and see if we get some improvement.

Does anyone have any suggestions for discipline techniques for when their behavior crosses the line? Time outs are really not working...its such a struggle to even get her to go sit in the time out place, and it just intensifies the whole problem.

A good book is 1,2,3 Magic. The techniques in this book can be used across populations (gifted, disabled, etc. ). I use it with my ds and have had very good results. You have to be consistent in whatever method you choose. Also any books on applied behavior analysis would be helpful. Try to determine why she's melting down. Is it for attention, to escape doing something she doesn't want to do, for access to tangible items, or does it just look/feel/taste good. Once you have an idea the function or root of behavior you can more easily address it. For example, if she's crying bc she wants your attention ignore the crying. Give her attn when she's quiet. Praise her often for having the behavior you want to see all the time. If she's having a tantrum to get something she wants -like dry cereal - ignore the tantrum and don't give into her demands. They learn very quickly what works and what doesn't. If she ask appropriately for dry cereal - give it to her so she see that asking nicely works, melting down does not. It's not a perfect science and our kids always keep us on our toes - often out thinking us.
I hope this advice helps. Best of luck!

Hi again

A little bit more on the 'behaviour modification' we went through with DS, although he may have been a bit younger than your DD when we started.

We were advised to find an instant gratification treat (in our case it was a jellybean) and every time we saw him being good we gave him a treat with "well done, good behaviour" or something similar. This was very tedious in the first few days/weeks as you had to be very consistent and very frequent with it. With less and less as the weeks went by as his behaviour improved. On the flip side everytime he went into a paddy we had to walk away from him (I used to walk round the house) so he got the message load and clear good behaviour got a treat and tantrums resulted in loss of attention. As he got older the jellybeans morphed into coins which went in to his money box, and we still reward very good behaviour with coins if appropriate but he really doesn't need it now as his behaviour is pretty much amazing now.

The other thing we used to do when he was mis-behaving badly and it wasn't a walk-away-from tantrum was to send him to his room and tell him he could come back and join us: i. when he was ready to calm down and behave properly and ii. when he was ready to apologise for his mis-demeanors. To begin with it was a struggle to get him to stay in his room and calm down but we stuck with it, I swear its harder on the parent than the kids.

DH still does a lot of positive praise and rewards for good efforts and behaviour which I tend to think could be eased back on now as I'd like to think he behaves well because he wants to and not just for the rewards. But maybe the balance between us works because as I said he really is a great kid now, with great manners but if you'd asked me if I'd feel this way a few years ago I'd have said you must be joking, I saw me or him or both of us in straight jackets and a padded room.

Good luck - I do know how it feels and I'm so glad I got the advise I did when I did and that we were both determined to see it through (we were willing to go with it because we were at our wits end) and now I have a wee charmer who brings us great joy (his teacher aide keeps threatening to steal him, she loves him to bits).

Thanks for the replies and suggestions!

FrustratedNJMom, I will read that book, and look for some others on the subject. I do have a hard time determining people's intentions, so maybe the books will help with that. If I do know what she's tantruming about, then I am careful not to give it to her. But the less tangible things are hard for me to figure out sometimes. I don't know if it is similar to 123 Magic, but I read Love and Logic and liked it, but I had a hard time coming up with a 'natural consequence' for her actions that made sense for the situation, so I just always ended up using time outs.

Spook, I like your suggestion with the reward system. We have a system now that is slightly similar but uses marbles that she can turn in for various rewards. I have a list of rewards she can earn, and how many marbles each reward costs. Our system was different in that she would get 5 marbles a day and would lose them for each behavioral problem. She could keep any left at the end of the day. She could also earn extras for good behavior or helping beyond her normal chores. The problem is that I'm terrible about remembering to use the system. It would be pretty easy to switch it up and just give them when she is good and not take away for bad behavior. She is quick to turn things to her advantage though, so I do worry about her saying "look at this good thing I did, can I get a marble?" constantly. Did you ever encounter that problem? I'm so glad that you have had such stellar results! It is encouraging to me!

Mmmm yes we were advised to give rewards but never to take them away, once earned that was that and to use other things as punishment. The other thing was with the jellybeans that in the early stages the reward had to be instant gratification, hence 1 bean at a time, maybe you could find something a bit healthier (we don't have a problem with sugar overload DS is cealiac with heaps of food allergies so we struggle to get enough calories in him)! The reasoning we were given is that the time frame for exchanging rewards was too long it needed to be a 'well done' now to get the early training in. (I did think it was a bit Pavlov's dogs, but it worked) and yes he did get wise and after a while if we weren't rewarding often enough (in his mind) he would come to us and say, "you know I think I've been really good this morning, do you think I deserve a few lollies/ice block/coins" whatever was in his head that he fancied at the time and we would have a wee chuckle and agree with him. But hey, he was right and he did deserve it so he was fully trained and now we have moments where I still get a surprise - "Mum, you and dad are really busy can I do anything to help?", "sure son can you go get the bins in?" He disappears and I think oh well nice try mum he gone to his play room, but no 2 minutes later here he comes trundling down the drive with the bins. Yeeha, didn't need to even ask twice.

The thing is to begin with it is a constant repetition of reward and praise and you do have to be doing it all the time but as they improve and get what its all about it becomes less. And if she has been good and is asking for a marble because you forgot then I think it shows she knows what its all about and hey its only a marble, have a big stock and go for it I say.

That's one thing I like about his school when they give out house points they give them in tens, fifty's, hundreds even, what does it matter they're only points and it sure makes the kids feel good rather that have 1 house point - whoop.

I'm not suggesting that this way is the be-all end-all but it sure did work for us and it did come from a kids clinical psychologist.

I think you will like 1,2,3 Magic.
My ds7 does try to manipulate me with the "if I do this, then can I have that" or he'll do something nice and then ask for a reward. I thank him and talk with him about how we aren't rewarded with things all the time but by the good feelings we get from helping. We are still working on this.
Consistency is crucial. It's the hardest thing when you are at it 24/7. Also, positive reinforcement has much longer lasting effects. Punishers (loss of marble, time-out, etc) are very effective in the short term so anything you can do for positive reinforcement is better especially when you consistently ignore the undesirable behavior.

I can do this! What do I have to lose? A few empty calories for my DD, and she can spare it. What do I have to gain? My sweet DD back! I think I have DH on board now, so we'll start this weekend.

Hopefully my library will get 1,2,3 Magic back in soon. I requested it, but it appears to be a very popular book.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to share with me what has worked for your families. Raising kids is a tough job anyway, and when you have an intense, sensitive child it gets even more challenging.

It's lovely to have the intense and sensitive working without the dramas and I'm sure it will happen.

Talking of sensitive I have to share this - the last 2 days its been parent/teacher interviews at school so all the kids (about 600) have been in the hall watching a DVD (little red riding hood 3, I think he said) but of all the 600 kids, a wee bit in to the movie, mine turns to the teacher behind him and says "excuse me - this movie is way too scary for me, can I do something else please". And I guess because he asked so nicely he was allowed to go with a teacher and read a book in another classroom. I in 600 level of sensitivity but great manners! I was very proud of the way he handled it so maturely because last year at his other school they used movies way too much for my liking and they would make him sit through it even though he was in floods of tears and sitting on a teachers lap - go figure?

Like you say I think we get way more challenges in raising these kids but I wouldn't swap because life with them is also way more interesting - never a dull moment in this household!

I agree! This level of drama is relatively new (we always had some, but not to this degree), and it was so lovely before that. For instance, she was the sweetest, most wonderful toddler I knew. Of course I am biased, but I wouldn't be surprised if your experience was similar. I have long attributed it to her sensitivity. As long as we weren't putting her in a situation that she was too sensitive for, she was amazingly cooperative and helpful. That's why I've been banging my head so much lately.

Wow, what wonderful manners! It drives me nuts when they show movies like that in school/preschool. My DD is really affected by movies, but she would be far too shy to say anything to the teacher. I love how your DS asserted himself so politely! I try to teach her to assert herself, but it is definitely a work in progress. I picked her up from art class yesterday and she was the last child washing the paint off her hands. The teacher's aide was probably tired of helping them get it off, so she told my DD that she was done even though she still had some on her hands. So I told my DD she needed to wash more, and she was almost in tears because I was telling her she needed to, and the teacher [aide] told her she was done. She was able to tell me what was wrong without going into full bore tears, so I told her we could go to the restroom instead. We then had a conversation about things that teachers get to decide and things that parents get to decide.

Day 1 with instant rewards. She's loving it. Thankfully, she has had enough good behavior that we've been able to reward her quite a bit. I am seeing a difference already, so hopefully it will last! I have also been removing or limiting some of the choices that we have been giving her, and telling her clearly when decisions are only for my DH and I. She has been amazingly accepting of this change.

I really think there is a lot to the choices thing. I was talking to a friend of a GT boy who is a year and a bit older than DS and she was explaining how he is still getting himself in a twist about the simplest choices. Go to a restaurant which chair do I sit on, which cookie do I want, which drink do I want, etc etc. At school in had a major meltdown about choosing which class responsibility he wanted for the week. Likes all the jobs and worried excessively that he might be missing out on something. She agreed about reducing his range of choices and given his age they decided that he would be given a choice of only two things in some circumstances and none in others. She's really pleased that it seems to be having the desired effect and reducing his stress levels.

Like the bit about what teachers get to decide and what parents do. In our case with it's what grown ups get to decide and what DS gets to decide! Nothing wrong with his assertiveness, but it is good he can do it with good manners. In his first few weeks of the new school he went up to one of the boys mother (who doesn't speak much English)and informed her that her son was being mean to him. I had to do a bit of smoothing with that one, but as usual DS was right he is a very mean boy!

It'll be good to hear how you go on.

S.

Hi Sdrothco- I don't know if these have been suggested yet but I have been reading "Mellow Out They say if only I could" and also "Living with Intensity" and "The Highly Sensitive Child." These books are really helping me understand our dd differently, and reframe her overreactions, etc.

I too have had no success with time out strategies and have been advised that separating a child with Emotional OE can make the situation worse.

As for always wanting something new to do, this is a constant struggle in our home because what is satisfying to her is the constant learning of new things. Still working on that one! We are also doing the library thing.

We also recently switched to a point system which has worked great and gave her some more empowerment and choice while increasing our dd's responsibilities in the home.

Can you put your dd to work for you with the twins? ;-)

Spook, that is funny about your DS telling the mom that her boy was mean! Only kids can get away with that stuff. She probably needed to hear it too!

Branwen, thanks for the book recommendations. I have read "The Highly Sensitive Child", which was good but it has been a while so I could probably do with a refresher. I haven't read the others you mentioned, I will look them up at the library.

She is actually quite generous about helping out with the babies. We'll see how it is after they are more mobile and getting into more of her things, LOL. This is an area where it is so great to have a sensitive child. She just doesn't have a mean bone in her body!

Sdrothco - great news! I always enjoy good outcomes. Not sure if I mentioned this earlier - it is best to pair tangible rewards with verbal praise, hugs, highfives, or 1:1 attention, etc. Reason being - it will make fading the reward easier and hopefully lead to the development of intrinsic motivation.
On time-outs - they are most often misused. I believe you said you were not using time-out which is good. Time-out can be very effective when used in the correct situation. It should be determined if the child is engaging in inappropriate behavior to gain attn before using a time-out. A child trying to escape a demand situation who is put in time-out is being reinforced bc he escaped demand. The time-out actually serves to strengthen the child's maladaptive response. This is different from having a kid in full throttle meltdown mode take a break to calm down - as long as he doesn't escape the demand that started the meltdown in the first place. 1,2,3 Magic does use a blanket time-out, which I do not like. I've modified the approach to match my son's escape-maintained behavior and have had great results. That aside, it's still a great book. I've modified the approach to match my son's escape-maintained behavior and have had great results.
I had this problem with the Montessori preschool. The teacher would send my son to time-out everyday bc he refused to complete seatwork. As soon as seatwork was presented he would get up and go get another preferred activity (the seatwork was not appropriate for his gt abilities but that's another story). I tried to get them to keep him I'm the classroom so he would not escape work. They refused and this just led to a whole host of issues. Basically my son learned he could get out of doing things at school by engaging in inappropriate behaviors.
With our kids we always have to be on our toes. They learn and adapt so fast. Be prepared to switch up rewards, etc as what motivates today may not tomorrow. You may see a reoccurence of unpleasant behavior. If this happens - don't give up! Assess your approach and determine if you are being consistent. If you are being consistent, your approach may not be compatible with the function or root of the behavior. If this is the case, you will need to modify your approach. Be careful with this as many times parents react to a change in behavior by abandoning their approach - which many times is a mistake.
As we say in the field - catch 'em being good and praise - it's the single most important thing we can do. So often we get caught up in life's responsibilities that we provide more attn to the child who is mis-behaving than the child behaving. I know I make this mistake as a Mom.
Wishing you continued success!

My current favorite parenting approach is http://www.energyparenting.com/products/item26.cfm
All Children Flourishing: Igniting The Greatness of Our Children

During years of using this approach with challenging children I discovered that it works beautifully to foster inner strength, higher achievement, happiness, security and exemplary conduct in every child. Parents, teachers and therapists who have learned and used the Nurtured Heart Approach with difficult children have consistently reported extraordinary results when applying these methods to normal children: they described their other children as flourishing beyond anything they had ever seen or experienced before. It is not just another positive approach to parenting designed to improve behavior. Rather, it s an approach to greatness, a method of recognizing and appreciating the gifts each child possesses. This approach gives adults enormous power to help every child navigate an ever more complex world with confidence and an inner compass of greatness.

and they have a great approach to time-outs. I've even become an affiliate, so if you buy the book, tell them 'Grinity' recommended it!

This book isn't specifically aimed at gifted kids, but it seems to me that it is totally in sync with the emotional OEs that so many gifties have. Much more so than regular parenting books.

BTW - with baby twins in your house, it's amazing that you have energy left to even care! Hats off to you sdrothco! (I'm an older sister of twin boys - I remember!) It's funny that your DD is looking for mental stimulation, when there are twins in the house. Teach her how to change their diapers, burp them, etc. That should give here plenty to think about, and lots for you to compliment and recognize positives over.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

FrustratedNJMom, Thanks for the tips! I have been careful to include verbal praise and tell DD exactly why I am rewarding her, but I will be sure to mix in the other things you mention as well. Eventually we'll want to cut out the M&Ms.

We have been using time outs, but they have not been working very well for us. I do make sure that when my DD is trying to avoid something, she still always has to do it after the time out. Occasionally I have given her an option, "You can either do X now, or you can have a time out and then do it after the time out." Strangely, this actually seems to work with her. {shrug} I really try to follow through on whatever I tell her...things she needs to do, things I need to do, etc. She can't get out of things just by throwing a fit (but that doesn't stop her from trying). I'm surprised that your DS's school didn't catch on to that issue better.

You are right, I can't believe how fast they catch on and adapt and need changes. I think that is why I ran into trouble using the time outs long past the point that she needed something different.

Grinity, thanks for the link! I will go look at it. It sounds intriguing. Certainly, I want my children to flourish and be able to achieve whatever in life will make them most happy and fulfilled. I know that my parenting will make a difference in a lot of this. Its a huge responsibility, isn't it?

Thanks for the kudos. My twins just turned a year old, and we are thankfully past the utter survival mode of those first few months. We were very fortunate to be able to have a large amount of help from our parents those first crazy months. My DD loves to play with them, likes to give them their bottle, and even reads to them sometimes. I'd be terrified to have her change a diaper though...who knows where that mess would go, LOL! I love to praise her for her "big sister" skills, and she is really a fantastic big sister. Sometimes she gets overzealous, but she is very kind to them. She still needs that mental stimulation of learning new things. Its all about what's new. This is why I'm chewing my fingernails over starting Kindergarten.

Day Two, still no meltdowns. Yeah! I still need to work on my consistency, but its such a busy household it gets hard sometimes. She did come and ask me today if she could have a M&M for nicely doing something I asked her to do, LOL. I gave it to her happily. The true test will be the next two days with DH back to work after the weekend and having extra work duties this week. {fingers crossed}