Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy MY FIRST POST

I just got the results back from the WISC III and I am a bit frustrated with the person who did the test. The results were faxed to me & when I sent an e-mail asking for an explanantion, the response was that "he was in the highest category of intelligence for his age and they saw nothing to be concerned with" and "what more did I need to know"? Is there something out there that can help me decipher all the various numbers? Should I even be concerned? His teacher told me that she felt his scores would be a lot higher than they came back and she also asked about age equivalent. I did not see anything about age equivalent on the results. I have read a little about this test vs Stanford Binet. I am wondering if the teacher is referencing the Stanford? I am also wondering if I should have him tested with the S/B? I read that if they score 19 on 2 or more sub sets (he did , they should be tested using the S/B. Any thoughts? Thank you,
Brenda

I have read that children who have very large vocabulary do very well with the WISIII.Children that do not should avoid this test.

It is vitally important to find the right individual to test you child. Many intellegence tests are used to identify child with learning disabilities and mental deficiencies in addition to high intellectual abilities, and testers tend to specialize in one area or the other. A good WISC tester is one who has tested many gifted children and "gets them." My tester, for example, has a full questionnaire that parents complete and turn in prior to testing to give her a feeling for the child. She also includes an introvert versus extrovert scale, as this is a common defining characteristic for gifted children. In adition to providing results, she also evaluates them and provides a full list of recommendations. These can include appropriate schooling situations, organizations to pursue, and specialists to see regarding areas of concern.

A gifted child is rarely gifted across the board. One of the hallmarks of gifted children is their asynchronous development. Understanding the areas of relative strength and weakness will help you as the parent guide your child and his or her teachers.

If this were my child I would be very tempted to find a new tester. I would also have the most recent WISC (the IVth edition) administered. Before bringing my child in I would agree on what will be provided by the tester. I would want results broken down by subtest, recommmendations for home and school, referals to appropriate specialists and a face to face consultation.

I found that there was a section in the book Upside Down Brilliance by Linda Silvermann that discussed the WISC subtests which I found useful.

Good luck.

Hi Jaxmom - Welcome. Raising gifted kids has lots of pleasures, I'm assuming you know all about that, so lets get down to the worry and anguish, ok?

This IQ testing business is very confusing. Do you have a Gifted Association in you state? Perhaps other parents there can start to give you some answers? (Be a bit cautions here because there is a large range of gifted, and what works with most gifted doesn't fit so called, "highly gifted/profoundly gifted.")


You don't say how old your child is, but if you are dealing with, or are planning to, any school what isn't totally familiar with kids like yours, then I would strongly reccomend going to "The Assessment and Counseling Clinic (ACC) of the Belin-Blank Center for Gifted Education and Talent Development is dedicated to providing clinical, outreach, and consultation services for gifted individuals, their families, and schools,"

(From their website at http://www.education.uiowa.edu/belinblank/clinic/)

because your child's test scores indicate that you really need to be at one of the top 5 centers in the USA.

- It may seem like a lot of money, but my experience is that you will end up there anyway, so you may as well save your self some tears and frustration.

I can't believe that you tester faxed you the results. Hopefully you didn't pay hundreds of dollars for this. If you spent less than 250$, pat yourself on the back for a good first step and go on from there. If you spent more, it's unfortunate, but I reccomend you not waste anymore energy on the rip-off, most of us adults "pay tuition at the school of hard knocks," from time to time.

And yes, I would guess that your teacher is referencing the old Binet LM. Basically, your child "ceilinged out" on the WISC III. You do have ample cause for concern. You are at the begining of a long learning process. For me, it's been a lot more fun and effective with support, so good for you for joining in with your arms open to gather up some!

Sending you Love and Luck - Trinity

Thanks for all your input. This whole thing is really so confusing and a bit scary at times. I have seen too many kids that I know get bored & drop out. On the other hand, I am energized to see him grow & get excited in his learning. My goal is to give him every opportunity to avoid that scenario of dropping out.

I guess a proper introduction would help.........My son is 7 years old & in 2nd grade at a small private school (individual attention at the childs level is the marketing, but I do not think anyone has the ability to work with him). I am a single mom & he is an only child. He has been fascinated with numbers, books, & puzzles from early on. I have know for a long time that he had some pretty special abilities, but now having the test results, I have confirmation Once I had the test results in hand, it seemed like the school paid a bit more attention & believed what I have been trying to tell them.

I also know that where he is is not the ideal place for him. I am in a position that I may be relocating & I am thinking that finding a proper school should be a major consideration. Currently we have been leaning towards Virginia, but I really have not looked into what they might have for his ability. Now that I have the test results, I think I better check a bit more

I only paid $15 for the test (insurance covered the rest), but I am a bit frustrated at her lack of communicating with me on this. In hindsight, I probably did not ask the right questions. My intent in doing the test was to see if he would score high enough to apply for the Young Scholars (he did . Now that I have the scores, I have a million other thoughts/concerns/questions.

It is so nice to have found this forum to talk with others.

Thank you

Oh Jaxmom!
I'm so glad for you that the Young Scholars Program will be availible! ((((smiling heart picture))) 15$! You Go Girl! Stop regreting right now, if you can.

You have so many possibilities, so much flexability! Don't worry about a retest until after you start up with Davidson, ditto about choosing a new school, as soon you'll have lots of inside info.

What to do for now?
1) Think about what you need for youself in the rest of your life - I mean the part of you beyond being a parent.
2) Read up on Profoundly Gifted - just let it all sink in. Also Homeschooler Sites, thoses moms know a lot.
3) Think about what kinds of enrichment activites you can do with you son at home, just for the pleasure of each other's company. We here will have plenty of suggestions.

(((smiles)))
Trinity

Hi Trinity,

Gotta tell you that I am smiling after reading your post I am praying/fingers crossed/lighting candles/and anything else I can think of that he gets into Davidson. I have his application ready to mail today.

You have given me some good food for thought- especially the part beyond being a parent??? LOL is there more .

Sounds like you have been around giftedness for a while? Care to share your story? Are you in Davidson?

Congratulations on the good score - and the cheap test! Wish I could have gotten someone to chip in on ours.

Check out hoagies -
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm
as a starting point on understanding the scores.

Davidson is great. We have been in for almost a year now.

It takes time for it all to sink in. Do lots of reading online and in books. Use bulletin boards to get the perspective of other parents.

I've had DS's IQ scores for over a year - and it is still sinking in.

Mary

Thanks Mary. I have been obsessed this week with exploring the Davidson site & Hoagies. It is truly overwhelming! I have talked with a couple of educators & shared his results & they have both encouraged me to get him OUT of the school system and explore home schooling. It is so sad to me that our school systems can not support bright kids He is definitely not getting much support for his talents at his current school. In fact one teacher made a rather negative comment about him doing Stanford EPGY math!

It is sad.... but it is reality.

We homeschooled for a semester before finding a private school that was able to accomodate better than the public schools.

Davidson can be very helpful in identifying some appropriate sources for material for homeschooling.

Mary

Very sad indeed.............he currently goes to a private school that promised working at each child's level. Problem is, they have no one that can work with a gifted kid. The answer has more often than not been.........more work, not necessarliy more challenging work

I am so praying that he gets in Davidson!

Brenda

Davidson isn't the cureall to everything - but it has been a very uesful resource.

The school we are using has allowed us to provide a private tutor for math - which is cool. However, she is following the curriculum and just modifying it with less busy work.

So.... not just less work, but less material covered. Hard to get them to understand that an extra hour of math work at his level would go a long way....

Mary

Hi Jaxmom - I'm sick of me right at the moment, but it's all there on the Davidson Parent's Forum, so assuming you get it, you'll hear all about it. If you don't get in, perhaps you'll ghostwrite my memoirs - it could be filed under "horror" at the bookstore, or perhaps "farce." My prayer is, that by the time your in and reading my past, my son's school will be so ideally accomidated, that I will have lost interest in this topic entirely and be (mentally) somewhere else. Have a good weekend.
Trinity

Trinity, I will pray for that for you...........and all of us too The more I read, the more angry I get. I can not believe some of the stupidity out there with education/politics and gifted kids. I am seriously thinking of pulling my kid & doing homeschool with the help of one of his teachers who has worked wonders with him! I do work from home, so I think I can make it work??

Hang in there.............have a good week

Hi Jaxsmom,
I found myself retyping "the story" and since I had it dreged up I though of your question, and will repost it here. It's so easy for me to "forget" how painful that time was - which is good. But it was so bad. In retrospect i think my son was inattentive in school because he was depressed and anxious, perhaps clinically. I don't think that's true now - Thanks Be. Here it is:

When my son was in 2nd grade, the school asked our permission to complete a "behavior scale" and gave us one to complete at home. Then we had a meeting. We were told that our scale revealed that our dear son was at risk for 9 or 10 catagories like: agression, anxiety, atipicalily, depression and that his in school scale showed him as "significant" even worse in those catagories. Then we were told that even though our son's teacher had 20 years experience and was particularly strong in handling kids with ADHD, that our son's behavior in class was "like nothing she has ever seen before." Our state has a law that school personel are not allowed to give a diagnosis. I thought this was very innapropriate. So we went to a local child psychologist who noted that our son tested "very superior" on the WISC III in many of the substest but average or below average on a few. Although we liked this gentleman, I feel he was unqualified to interpret a WISC III that was so high. His take on our son was that our son might certianly be a little bored at school, but that the behavior problems where due to the splay in his scores, and could be thought of as a "relative" Non Verbal Learning Disorder. When we shared back our "diagnosis" there was another meeting where they showed us checklists about NVLD and ADHD and have multiple school specialists explain to us why ADHD was a better fit than NVLD. If I had know then what I know now i would have realized that unaccomidated giftedness is associated with many of the things they were concerned about. My belief is that a child like this can not be evaluated for NVLD or ADHD unless they are in an academic setting which is appropriate for them. I wish I was in a position to homeschool or try private schools but I am not, and my son reports that he likes his school and his friends. It's two years later, and a wonderful 3rd grade teacher, and a 4th grade teacher who tries her best to accomidate him in the classroom have improved the situation quite a bit. BTW, when we asked the school for single subject acceleration, our son was evaluated by their specialists and found to "not be a very deep thinker in math." and turned down. (He got the highest possible score in reasoning on the WISC IV that they regave him this January.)His behavior at school is "so-so." Thankfully He was accepted into the Davidson Young Scholar Program and I have had so much support and information! It's my glimmer of hope. I am still trying to work within the Public School system.

Jaxsmom-
I just went back and read the post where you're thinking about homeschooling. It seems like if you have the help of the teacher who you know can work with him, that you're in a good position. What does your son have to say about it? My guess is that if you pull him now you can coast on his gifts, but if you pull him later, after he gets like my son, you'll have to rebuild his trust in the world. That's a pretty delicate process. If you bring him home now, he can always go back into school when he wants to.


What ever you choose, I'm happy for you. I think that every gifted kid who gets thought about before "the behavior" starts is a win for the world.

Hi Trinity,

Wow, you have been thru it haven't you. Thanks for telling your story. I am glad that this organization is there to support you as you attempt to work with your school system. Your story & the stories that I have read about schools and our kids make me so sad and so angry.

I really am feeling like the homeschooling is the best option for my son. I am still trying to work out a few last minute kinks, but hopefully, I can pull it off .

Have a great week...........

Trinity -

I wonder how many of us have the same story - or so similar. I guess that the 'good' part was that we hit bottom in kindergarten. The principal was very careful not to diagnose - but she told me stories about kids with Aspergers who were so much better off in a public school with special ed.

When the psych did the test - we were lucky. He hadn't dealt with kids like Snoopy before -but he did some reading before talking to us and gave us pretty good information or no information. Refused to label ADHD until we got an appropriate educational set up because - lo and behold - all home problems had started after the school year and there was a sharp difference between home scores and school scores on the behavior scale.

Anyway - We pulled him from school and homeschooled. I would give anything if we had pulled 3 months earlier. I kept fighting it out though - thinking somehow they would listen.

It took nearly a year for my son to recover from the experience and regain his trust of teachers - and himself. He had fully bought into the teacher's idea that there was something wrong with him.

He's doing fine and dandy now - although he still isn't being challenged and the school is making 'attention span' noises. (Different school.)

We are going to do a real consult with a gifted expert and find out just what it should take to meet his educational needs. I suspect that knowledge is power....

Mary

Hello (still here waiting)

It is so sad what is happening to these children.School's don't even seem to care or make an effort.I sometimes feel that they KNOW all along.But due to lack of accomodations and funds, they ignore the situation. Often creating FICTIONAL lables!

Does it truly all add up to $$$$$$$$?

No. It is more than that. Many teachers literally know nothing about gifted kids - or if they do, only moderately gifted kids. HG kids and PG kids are rare and some teachers may never see a kid like mine in their career.

Yes, money does come into play - but so does the way that teachers are educated.

Honestly I think it goes a lot deeper than money or lack of training. Most of the people I have run into have deep commitment to children. I think it's a reflection of where we are as a species, the place where "otherness" is just too threatening. Any kind of "otherness" at all. Leftover from mammal heritage of social behavior? Perhaps - But not our fate, only our current moment, our big rock to roll today. My life is entirely better and different with support and community. Changes that are this big are slow and painful. the cost is way to high - but - it's the fight we were handed.

Thanks for the sympathy - I'm so glad for every kid who is well cared for!

trinity

I can't argue with you on that. Some teachers don't seem to have truly been called to teach.... just as some doctors shouldn't be doctors etc.

So many many reasons - I don't think we can attribute it all to any one. However, one might argue that that problem with 'different' might well be the source of many of the other problems we see.

Mary

Mary,

I think "different" is the source of many problems......not just gifted So I would definitely agree with your argument. I also think that teachers are really not given much training on what gifted means, let alone how to teach them. I guess my hope is that as we advocate for our kids, the "system/world" might eventually come to realize that different is just that.........different..........and that is ok

[I'm so glad for you that the Young Scholars Program will be availible! ((((smiling heart picture)))

Trinity.........how did you know

HE MADE IT Just go the letter yesterday!!!

I had a very similar experience with my 10 year old PG son in the San Francisco Bay Area. We have not applied yet to Davidson. He has attended public schools for four years now.

Really Abby - how strange!
What kind of school situation do you have for him? What are your hopes and plans?

Hi Trinity and all,

Thanks for this thread and Trinity thanks for sharing this story.

We also live in the San Francisco and it has been tough for us as well. Both private and public schools are not equipped to handle gifted children.

I am in the process of applying to Davidson Young Scholar Program as we need full family support. I hope this does not sound strange, but the gift of giftedness is quite stressful on the entire family and there is little support.

Thanks,

The gift of giftedness is stressful! I'll never forget the backhanded complement I got from an "experienced" mother of three, who overcame her jealousy to offer support. Her youngest is DS9's age. Back then the kids were age 5, and she had to put up with a lot of DS9 stories from her family members. One time, when we were together at a 4 hour event, she said: "I always hear, 'X____ this and X_____ that,' but you know what? Your kid is a handful!"

Up till then I was in total denial about his giftedness, and just thought I was "a bad mom." What a relief! LOL ((big grin))
Trin

If you are looking for schools ANYWHERE, the only one I've heard about and been truly impressed with, is in MN, where someone I know on-line lives, and it is truly impressive what she has said about it. But SMALL.

Otherwise, I would look very carefully. The "best" schools often turn around and bite you in the backside. My son was in a very nice private school, small classes, principal was familiar with gifted (has a masters in gifted ed, and raised her own gifted kids), and I still believe my son was not challenged there. They customized -- but he had the primary teacher wrapped around his little finger, and was allowed to just mentally take vacations all the time. Four years later, we are FINALLY overcoming that issue! (I hope -- I don't say it is a done-deal yet, but looking good so far.)

But I think my testing cost beat yours -- the school did it (the WISCIII, also). Apparently in FL, you can request it, even if your child isn't in the school. (Actually, the WISC he was in there, briefly, when they did it, but before that, I had requested it, and to get the ball rolling, they do a parent and teacher questionaire, then after jumping that hoop, gave him the Slosson Full-Range Intellegence Test, THEN the one that officially got him in the gifted program was the WISC-III. I always wonder about what his "real" score should be, though. There was a 25 pt difference between the two tests. Both gifted range, but that's a big discrepency!

I believe we are on the same list...... P & P? Ande was writing about a small school in MN

Yup. But I tend to be careful about cross-referencing, unless I know the parties involved. (BTW, I'm a list junkie, so I'm on P&P, Highly Gifted Support Board (I always call it Haven's board to myself), HomeschoolingMensans, and a bunch of others, many strictly homeschooling related. And a few unrelated to my son! (Wow, I get something just for me!)

A crucial thing to remember about teachers is that they almost always have a pretty sizeable chip on their shoulders. Simply put, they feel that they don't get any respect. Which is why there's such a strong passive-aggressive streak in so many of them.

After all, look at things from their point of view. They work long, hard hours for pitiful pay. Their obviously important work isn't valued. They're not taken seriously as professionals, either -- no teacher, however successful, has the social status of even the lowliest lawyer. And then, too, teachers are constantly being bullied and buffeted and badgered by people to whom they can't talk back. Truth to tell, most of them would chuck the whole thing in a minute, if it weren't for their devotion to the kids.

So is it really surprising, in light of all this, that teachers bristle -- indeed, even lash out -- when a parent tries to tell them their business? Is it really surprising that they react with a barely suppressed righteous indignation? Is it really surprising that their reactions become even more peremptory and hostile when the parent seems to know more than they do about the issues involved?

No, of course it isn't. In fact, it's more or less exactly what you should expect.

So the moral of the story is that parents of gifted children would do well always to keep in mind that the typical teacher has a very delicate ego. Yes, the typical teacher has never once seen any profoundly gifted children, and yes, the odds are long that she's ever even read anything about these exotic creatures. But that doesn't mean that she will react genially to parents, however well informed, who seek to lecture her on the subject.

Which is why, in dealing with a teacher from whom you seek a classroom accomodation for your child, extreme delicacy should be the order of the day. Show the utmost deference to the teacher, and above all, never press a point, however much you know yourself to be in the right.

In fact, you'll almost certainly get better results if you enlist a surrogate to make your argument. This can get expensive if you use the best sort of surrogate, who simultaneously knows teachers, subject matter, and profoundly gifted children extremely well. But books or articles by recognized ed/psych authorities may also be effective, and at any rate they're much more likely to influence a teacher positively than anything you can say yourself -- even if you're a world-class mathematician, and what you want for your kid is a different kind of exposure to math.

Oh, and what goes for teachers goes school administrators, too -- unfortunately. Why? That's another story, for another post.

thanks Teaching Genius! I'd love to hear your perspective about school adminsitrators, especial at the District Level.

Well, Trinity, as far as I can tell, the facts about school administrators are, if anything, even more depressing than the facts about teachers. Basically, school administrators are a lot like teachers, except that they're farther removed from the actual daily sufferings of the kids the system can't adequately serve. So it's easier for them to be callous.

Which, from their point of view, is generally a big plus. After all, in their dealings with the parents of gifted children, school administrators are essentially gatekeepers -- which is to say, they think of it as their job to say "no."

This, they believe, is more or less always the right answer, for at least three reasons. First, they want to keep their passive-aggressive subordinates as quiet and cooperative as they can, which means placing no additional burdens on any teacher. Second, they want to steer clear of complaints that they've favored any kid over any other. And third, they want to assert their authority. Saying "no" to a proposal, especially a proposal from the parent of a gifted child, is plainly more assertive than saying "yes."

These days, the preoccupations of district administrators are pretty easy to see. They want to ensure that none of the schools for which they're responsible gets tagged as "underperforming," and they want to persuade any major local business they can think of to contribute cash to the district (in one way or another.) Whenever they can, they want to pass local school bond issues, and get the city to approve subsidies for teacher housing. That sort of thing.

And this is all very natural, of course. But with concerns like these on his mind, it's hard to convince a district administrator that he should go out of his way for gifted kids. After all, gifted kids are never going to keep any of the district's schools from slipping into that dreaded "underperforming" category. Those major local businesses he's courting are just as wary of being labeled elitist as school administrators are. And a gifted program costs money that might better be put into those housing subsidies.

If you need to understand the thinking of district administrators, Trinity, I'd suggest that one good way to go might be to scan a few recent issues of the professional magazine that serves them,

http://www.districtadministration.com/page.cfm?p=1

On the whole, though, this is unlikely to give the parent of a gifted child much cause for rejoicing, I'm afraid. Still, it's worth noting that there are some interesting things going on here and there, and a few rays of hope clearly do shine through the gloom. For example, take a look at this:

http://www.districtadministration.com/page.cfm?p=1057

It's hard to escape the conclusion, I think, that if only more districts had administrators like Stan Olson, life would be a good deal easier for most Davidson parents.

gosh Trinity, that really **is** like our story.
I just now figured out how to get to these other posts. I've been stuck at reading only my own post.

In response to some of the other posts, my take on education, as a person with an MA in ECSE, is that many educators do two things....1) the least they can to get their pay and 2) the most they can to undermine the parent. It is the dominant "school culture", unfortunately. I see it proudly propelled in our school district administration. It's so frustrating and sad.


They accept mediocrity in themselves and they resent the striving for excellence in others. There are a handful that really care for the kids and really try their best, in spite of the "school culture" that inhibits them. Those are the ones I rely on. I think I've seen that in our principal, a couple of the teachers, and one or two other members of The Mite's special ed team. Because of that, I'm going to give them a shot at striving for excellence in themselves and The Mite, before I pass judgement. Plus, it will give me a little time to plot alternative strategies.

Hi everyone
Just been reading your ideas about teachers and their understanding of giftedness.
I was a teacher for seven years. The last school I taught at had no programs or support for gifted children AT ALL! Partly, it was money related, however, the underlying belief was that because they were so bright, they could manage by themselves without support! I was disgusted at the way their needs were ignored and offered to provide a program during my own time. I was not trained in gifted education but had done some subjects and had a very basic understanding of their needs. Eventually, I quit. I was burnt out and I was horrified at the way the school completed ignored their needs, which often resulted in poor behaviour or total boredom and complete waste of their time and talents. The school seemed more interested in spending money on its buildings, rather than supporting students.

Willa,
I understand your frustration, and I do know a few teachers who do the very least they can. However, I really believe that basically, they just don't have a clue about how to identify a gifted student, especially a profoundly gifted student, and definitely not a PG student who also has learning difficulty in other areas. I know that at least in Australia, we are completely unprepared to meet the needs of such students. I believe teacher education is mostly to blame - at least here in Australia.
Well, that's my opinion - coming from an ex-teacher who really did care about students - so much that I had to leave the job - it is just too difficult to do the job as well as I would like. I would have to work 24hours a day, 7 days a week and even then I wouldn't be fully meeting the learning needs of all the students in my class. It's terribly frustrating - for teachers, parents and students. And very sad, too, especially for the students.