Verbal memory is working memory as well as sequencing. My son did well on that subtest, in the superior range.

My son definitely has convergence insufficiency, but he hit the ceiling on matrix reasoning subtest and came close on block design. His picture concepts is not as high, but still really good. I think convergence insufficiency affects how the eye team together when they are moving, i.e. reading or marking boxes on a coding test. It is probably less of a problem when they only have to look at a single picture at a time. Also, DS scored in the 80th percentile on the reading achievement test, and this is a kid whose eyes actually cross when he attempts to read long lines of type, so don't discount how well they can compensate for their deficits. They can look like they are doing "great" in a certain area compared to their age peers and still have serious issues. That is what I have found to be so tricky about this 2e thing.

I see my son as a visual-spatial and kinesthetic learner, but I have always thought there was something beyond learning style going on there. In addition to the convergence problem, he stutters and has issues with verbal fluency. His attention is not great, even outside of tasks involving visual-motor integration. So DS has issues beyond the convergence problem.

A poster on another board I read puts it this way, Learning style is a preference. You prefer to learn in a certain way, but can adapt to other styles when necessary. LD is when you can't learn in other styles. And a code 5 indicates something more serious than learning style issues to me.

On edit: I am going to put posters in this thread on my buddy list so I can check your posts and progress in the future, see if they are applicable to my DS

My son fits the VSL to a T. He has poor reading in a sequence, especially the little words that have no pictures (a, the, and, etc) He "sees" the words without all the letters (cuddle would be cddl) He says the vowels don't have any meaning, he can still read the word without them so why are they even there. His letters are incorrect more often than right "b" and "d" especially so he capitalizes them to make sure people understand. He pictures all his math in his head. He does not memorize anything. His teachers, almost of them, said he "thinks outside the box". His handwriting is fine when copying and getting better otherwise. He does have visual tracking problems which could account for all of the above.

master of none- i think you got everything on your list of qualities for these guys. The dysgraphia might be partially a fit for my DS but we've worked a lot on handwriting and its about average at this point for a boy his age. His picture drawing is very good and he does it often. He does not seem to struggle enough with pencil tasks for it to fit, but it might be part of the puzzle. Ditto on the convergence. He should not be a great reader if he has it, so i'm doubting that.

NCMom2- thank you for tracking us wiht your buddy list.

What i did find, and i've struggled whether to post this.. I googled "low coding wechsler diagnosis" and came up with an article on Scitzophrenia (sp??). Seems low coding scores is correlated (weakly but significantly) with this disorder. I'm not great with statistics so if anyone out there who has the background and is interested, pls let us know how strong the correlation is- i did not understand all the notation...While after reading and reading and reading other studies, staying up late into the night, worrying myself sick, and about the disorder in general, my fears are assuaged a bit. Since my son possibly fit the PDD spectrum early in life, i feel that is where the connection lies, as some elements of autism mimic pieces of schitzophrenia (like self-talk, which he used to do) and it does not at all mean he will get anything else later on. I also found the high IQ is rare with Schitzophrenics so that would be a good sign for our group of smarties..Also they tend to decline cognitively, especially from age 4 to 7 , which does not seem to fit our kids at all...mine had a huge IQ gain during that time.and there is a huge environmental influence/impact of negative family situations that i dont' think fits us at all either.

But why I do post this is that these articles contain a lot of really good information on what the coding subtest is measuring. I can't exactly surmise, but its not a simple skill, and Patricia's explanation of the role of "executive function" seems to be right on.

But again, if anyone knows about this connection, and can shed some light on any of this , pls help.

irene

thank you dottie, i am going to continue to look for some links. I'd heard that too (about ADHD) but could not find any studies, not that they're not out there.

Dottie: I had not heard that specifically about coding. I heard in general low working memory and/or low processing speed was a typical ADHD profile, but that the Wisc, of course, can't diagnose and can just point toward more testing as to the cause of the low scores.
From what our tester said, coding and the other processing speed subtests require visual processing and written output. My ds bombed them all, which are his weak areas. I would guess you might also have trouble with coding if you have difficulty with sustained attention on meaningless tasks. It's funny, my DD who looks very ADHD when in a non supportive environment, loves those coding kinds of puzzles- I guess more evidence for me to worry less about ADHD for her and more about appropriate learning environments.
My DS has good working memory (120). Our tester had kind of implied that his test scores (WISC + many other tests including children's memory scale) would have supported an ADHD diagnosis but teacher report, parent report and testing observations didn't bear it out. She said if the processing speed was a verbal test, he would done much better, but it was that this test just happened to combine all his weak areas.

I found this abstract below that I can't make any sense out of, but maybe you can. They are comparing ADHD and normal kids on the Wisc III and IV, but their language isn't clear enough for me to understand which comparisons they are reporting. Any way, I think it supports what you say Dottie.

http://jad.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/486

Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children, 3rd and 4th editions (WISC-III n = 586 and WISC-IV n = 118), profiles were compared for children with ADHD and normal intelligence. Mean Verbal Comprehension Index (VCI) and Perceptual Organization/Perceptual Reasoning Index (POI/PRI) scores were significantly higher than Freedom From Distractibility/Working Memory Index (FDI/WMI) and Processing Speed Index (PSI), and Symbol Search was higher than Coding. FDI/WMI and PSI scores were similar on both tests, but VCI and POI/PRI were higher on the WISC-IV than on the WISC-III. Therefore, index discrepancies were greater for the WISC-IV, suggesting that the WISC-IV might be better than the WISC-III in delineating the strengths and weaknesses of children with ADHD. All children in the WISC-IV sample scored lowest on WMI or PSI, whereas only 88% of the WISC-III children scored lowest on FDI or PSI. Thus, the WISC-IV may be more helpful in diagnosing ADHD than the WISC-III.

Master of none, my tester said, if I understood correctly, that ADHD would probably clip IQ scores across the board. She said my DS did very well on subtests that interested him, but things he didn't like he resisted mightily. I chose a tester familiar with 2e, and she recognized what he was doing and pressed him as hard as the test would allow, but still, a number of the subtests are probably an underestimate of his true abilities, according to her. How far under, she can't tell.

My DS also got 120ish on working memory. However, he does have symptoms of ADHD. I think we need to get his visual processing issues cleared up before we can make a final decision on that. DS is inattentive a lot of the time, but maybe within normal boundaries for a high-spirited, gifted boy. His oppositional behavior and inattentiveness are only off the chart when he deals with written work. I suspect the vision training will help with that.

Renie, my DS also talks himself through tasks. During the most recent testing, the psych particularly noted this. She thought it was interesting that he talked himself through even the most complex non-verbal tasks.

This is all so interesting. So many of the kids here have similar profiles. I feel like they have a common condition which needs a name.

As for ADHD, DS11 has it and takes medication. He was tested both before and after he went on meds. His scores went way up except for processing speed which went down. I think there there is more at play here than ADHD.

I have read online that low coding score *may* indicate ADHD IF other factors are also present. My friend's DD who is ADHD and gifted, had a very low coding score w/ GAI of about 146.

Hi,
I have just joined this forum because I can't believe what I'm reading.

I have an 11 year old boy (is that DS11?) who is in a gifted program and doesn't write unless there is absolutely no other option. Also, he never did timed tests for addition or multiplication although he has no problem with the concepts and has now learned his facts because he's doing much more advanced math. He was a preemie, born at 25 weeks, no current medical conditions except poor eating habits, tested into the gifted program in 2nd grade, a voracious reader, a sponge for information of any kind, very immature for his age both physically & socially, funny as all ... But, his output isn't there.

Two years ago on the WISC-IV he had a coding score of 5, with an overall processing speed index of 83 (13th percentile). His working Memory Index is more in range (86th percentile) but is comprised of the Digit Span (98th percentile) and letter number sequencing (50th). VCI is high across the board. The psychologist who administered the test said that the mere fact of having such large discrepancies of scores would not only be extremely frustrating for him, but is an LD in and of itself. At that time she also diagnosed dysgraphia and ADHD, with a provisional diagnosis of Adjustment Disorder with Anxiety. We got a 504 plan for the dysgraphia to get the teacher off his back. She had turned him into the "bad" kid in a school with very few bad kids.

The dysgraphia doesn't exactly fit because he can form his letters really well, is naturally a good speller,but he does not even come close to expressing himself in writing the way he does verbally. A psychiatrist we saw to discuss ADHD went with Anxiety as primary diagnosis and he went on anti-anxiety meds. This helped a lot with emotional issues at school (shutting down, frustration, giving up). Then 4th grade, new teacher, better writing, but still not even close to his verbal abilities.

Now in 5th grade, at the gifted magnet school full time, the writing still isn't happening and I'm immersed in looking for the right "label"? for want of a better word. He's now on meds for ADHD but I don't see these helping much and will probably discontinue.

You've given me tons to look at: convergence insufficiency, non-sequential learner, visual spacial learner, motor planning. I can't even keep track of it all right now. But I had to write to join the club of "coding 5".

Writing back to state that our ds8 has so many of these characteristics, it is astounding to read these descriptions. Also, I wanted to post a bit about what ds' tester/psychologist has concluded.
Ds' coding was 7, not 5, but he fits this picture you guys are describing:
great speller on tests (98% on WJ Spelling subtest), doesn't pay as much attention when spelling in written work. Doesn't like to write at length, though verbal ability is supposed to be a strength. Loves to draw, does so often and well.
Not a regular Joe when it comes to interests, has to work to like what the other kids like, and definitely has to work to be liked. GAI on wisc - 95th percentile, PSI - 21st percentile.

I posted on another thread some of this. After a thorough psychoeducational assessment the Dr stated that ds is capable of very high abstract understanding, but has processing speed deficiencies which will begin to affect his ability to perform in the classroom and most especially on timed tests and that a plan to accomodate this issue must be set up with the school. He stated that some of this processing speed problem is very likely related to depression - yes this was a real shocker to us. Ds' has social issues, part of why we were there. He hates that he isn't making friends as quickly and smoothly as he wants and is ending up directing his frustrations at himself; he also has anxiety over some school stuff. Benny's post is the only one I've read where the dr mentions anxiety.
Our dr never mentioned dysgraphia, but I will state that ds' did a pegboard test which times left and right hands. His left was slightly faster than his right, although the right hand was still average. The doctor asked about left handedness in our family. Dh and I are both lefties; Dr said there are about 25% of lefties who don't have language strictly on one side of the brain, but rather on both sides (true lefties don't always write with their left hands). I don't want to go too far down this path cause it gets really fuzzy, but he said that this would indicate other subtle differences are likely in the brain as well. Great, interesting differences, but differences nonetheless. Lefties in the family anyone?
Back to the main issue - depression and anxiety over social issues. Dr recommends focused professional social skills training, and continuing to assess ds mood to make sure it is improving. If not improving after a couple months, broader therapy is recommended. Also, he has given Dh and Ds a prescription for Boy Scouts . (a place to get one on one and with groups of other kids to practice new learned social skills and to make friends). Improvement in social outlook should equal improvement in mood and general outlook for ds, and has a good possibility of alleviating some of the processing slowness.

Hope all this is of help or at least of interest.