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    Joined: Aug 2007
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    bk1 Offline OP
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    Hi Everyone:

    I'm feeling like we blew it. After getting a great teacher last year for second grade, we thought DS8 was going to really begin to be challenged and motivated in school. I THOUGHT I had a really good converstaion with his new 3rd grade teacher at the beginning of the year. Instead, I'm now discovering, he's now completely uninterested in school, and seemingly uninterested in working at anything. He just got a report card with "above grade level" in reading and in understanding science concepts, but also many "below grade level" grades and one "far below grade level." He got below grade level in math, among other subjects. Hsi new teacher, although kind and sensitive, hasn't done any of the accommodation we asked for and seems to think he needs to focus on DS8's weaknesses, like handwriting and disorganization. He's giving him nothing to keep him interested in school.

    When he was a baby,he was the kind of kid who made people exclaim a the supermarket or the playground, first because he was this tiny little person speaking in full sentences,then because he was a toddler sight reading the carbohydrates on the cereal boxes. (I was on the Atkins diet):( In the car, at two he would count up into the hundreds, and add big numbers. Things like one million and one plus two million and two equals three million and three. Math was endlessly fascinating, and before he'd turned three he'd memorized the names, feeding habits, hips, and era of existence of probably 100 dinosaurs.

    At about three, he lost his interest in math and dinosaurs and instead became interested in warfare (too much Iraq war on the news at our house) and science. Once again, endless questions and discussion and a real enthusiasm for learning.

    We didn't push his math learning because he seemed quite capable and we thought his interest would return, or he'd get it at school. Instead, his school has been moving through math concepts at a snail's pace with TERC -- and he's not even getting the drill and kill so that he knows his math facts. He seems to have gotten his addition and subtraction facts by osmosis -- and he's only memorized the times tables he thinks are interesting. His third grade math class hasn't even started multiplication yet!

    We started afterschooling him on Aleks. He had a bit of an attitude when taking the placement exam and kept hitting "I don't know" as an answer, if it hadn't been covered in class already. So he got to skip only about 25 percent of the material. Since, he's been 'learning' about 2-3 math concepts per hour he's on,but he's hardly ever on. I've tried bribing him with time on his favorite vidoe game, but he hardly ever bites. Now, he tells me he hasn't learned anything new on Aleks because he already knew all the stuff he has gone over so far. I'm going to try to get him to retake the initial placement assessment, but it concerns me that he didn't seem to want an accurate placement and doesn't seem to want to learn math. Also, each time I suggest he learn his times tables, he seems to lapse into a depression, and groan and talk about how is life is so terrible, and sulk, and stomp, etc.

    Similarly, he seems totally uninterested in the school's writing program, which is a big part of every day. He has big handwriting issues, and started getting OT this fall -- which may play a part, but he seems to put forth no effort for any assignment, seeming to try to do the minimal amount possible. They aren't stupid assignments, they really are somewhat open-ended assignments that should give him lots of chance to be creative and do something challenging. Any time I suggest trying to do more, I get the same tantrumy behavior.

    Any ideas on what I could do about this?


    Unschooling or afterschooling is out -- we both have to work.

    I am feeling totally ineffective right now.


    BK1

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    acs Offline
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    So you have mentioned a lot of things that make him angry and frustrated. Can you think of one thing that he still has a spark for? Can you think of a way to feed that one thing, without him thinking you are "pushing" him? What is his primary mode of learning (visual, auditory, kinesthetic)? Can you let him indulge that mode of learning when he is home?

    I have been fortunate to not have to face this as a parent, but I had a HG sibling (who was very kinesthetic) who hated everything at school, but loved helping his dad in the family business. The knowledge that he would get to come home and take equipment apart kept him sane and engaged.

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    bk1 Offline OP
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    Thanks for your feedback, acs.

    He loves reading, science of all types, especially chemistry and physics right now. He wanted to know what made bombs explode, so I googled it with him, we discussed, he told friends at school (four days before the first official parent-teacher conference night) and I got called by the teacher to make sure I set up this conference appointment and discussed whether my child wanted to make a bomb for real! The principal stopped by the classroom while I was there. DH assumes the incident is now in his Permanent Record.

    The teacher is Quaker and I think he is really appalled by my son's interest in wars and fighting and knowledge of gruesome medieval weapons. DS never actually fights or talks about hurting anyone he knows or anyone for real. Every year, someone -- one of the lunch ladies, recess ladies, or afterschool teachers, or the school janitor pulls me aside and says I have a really kind, gentle, well-behaved child. I don't really know what prompts this --it just happened again a few weeks ago.

    But I digress-- I just didn't want you to get the misimpression he's some troubled, brooding child who will have a violent outburst!

    Do you think it would make sense to focus our afterschooling efforts completely on library/reading/discussing books and learning the science he is interested in?

    I feel like we can't ignore math learning, since he is getting so little of it in school, and in a way that he seems to be getting worse at math, not better. He's actually started to think he's bad at it. From IQ testing, I know that's not true. Also, in this large city, your middle school acceptance is mostly based on your state math and reading scores from 4th grade. There is no zoned middle school, so bad scores put you at a bad middle school.

    On the other hand, while math is important, what we are doing seems to be building resentment AND doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything. He's really not accustomed to having to work at anything.

    That also worries me, because I think it's dangerous for a child not to be challenged at anything. I feel like I need to be pushing on something, to make sure he is getting challenge somewhere. Right now, he absorbs a lot of science information, but really, learning tons of information isn't a challenge for him. Perhaps if we try to talk more about the concepts? On the other hand, if I start to push ever so slightly on science, perhaps he will decide he hates that, too?

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    acs Offline
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    My brother learned a ton of math working on the equipment he loved--he never wanted to learn math for the sake of learning it, even though he had a talent for it. He only wanted to learn it if it helped him with his projects or he could see that it would be useful in future projects. It seems like science could be the same motivator for your son.

    Math, as it is usually taught, is separated from its real-world applications and larger world ramifications. I think that is why many people don't think they are good at it. Many people who don't think they are good at it use it regulary in cooking, crafts, carpentry, navigation, etc. I bet if he could see how it helped him understand bombs, weapons, science etc, you might see him grab onto it again. Just stay away from math for math's sake.

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    cym Offline
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    Hi bk1,

    I think handwriting trouble can really effect how a kid feels about writing overall. Can you ask for keyboarding, or at least half the time? Open-ended assignments might be overwhelming (aren't they still concrete thinking developmentally...write about a specific topic, fine; write about anything--blank page). Perseverence, practice, patience, improved manual dexterity, maturity will probably improve this.

    I agree with acs to play up what your son likes and does well with. I wouldn't say completely focus on these, because math is an issue, especially if he's underachieving and feeling he's no good at it. Maybe he needs to be advanced in that (one teacher told me that when faced with the need, kids learn their times tables practically overnight). If the school won't do it, maybe do it yourself, with fun stuff at first like math games, computer math games, puzzle books. My strategies (which you'll have to ask my kids if they were at all effective) were to keep reiterating how cool math is and how able they are. I'm sure a lot of others on this board are better able to recommend resources, but I liked a book on Mental Math (especially if your son doesn't want to write) and number enigmas. I think schools make it too dry & dull and there should be more hands-on (maybe a tutor could help with this)--my DS who doesn't love math really loves working with those math cubes and "Alge-blocks" I'm sorry I don't know their proper names, but maybe someone else does? If things progress positively, work in curriculum and maybe work toward a goal (try a math competition in 4th grade, like Math Kangaroo).

    These are just ideas from a novice...maybe pink panther and others will see this and respond with a professional advice.

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    My son loves science and has always been fascinated with atomic energy and weapons. I have a few teachers/administrators in my extended family. The district superintendent always reminds me of Mr. Rogers, even when he speaks to adult family members. I think school administrators, in general, are all spooked out about school violence and they are sometimes unable to differentiate between typical boy interests and dangerous obsessions.

    My impression of ALEKS is that each grade level is at the �should be taught in X grade� rather than what is actually taught in X grade at most schools. Maybe you could explain that math skills and science achievement are linked. Empathize with him regarding how uninteresting the lower level math is, but explain that it gets better with progression. I have found that validation worked well as a motivator for my son at times.

    I�m sure others will have more advice tomorrow. Good night.

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    It sounds to me like he has run up against some things that make him struggle (handwriting, memorizing times tables) and he is not accustomed to that. It is causing him to think he is not "good at" those things because they were not automatic.

    Instead of finding ways to avoid them, I would take a different tack. When this happens with my kids we discuss how people learn to do things by practicing and some things take longer to learn than others. I try to teach them how to persevere with something they don't feel good at because when they finally do succeed they will get a real feeling of satisfaction! This is a great learning opportunity. I think it's ok for you to insist that he work on something like times tables. I don't think that's pushing.

    Bribing totally backfires with my DS. It works much better for me to insist that he do certain work that he doesn't like and then he does the work that he finds more interesting. We "save the best for last". He has even carried this idea over to dinner time and has started eating veggies first (I'm wondering how long that will last smile )

    Cathy

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    bk1 Offline OP
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    Thanks everyone for taking the time to think about this and share your experiences.

    ACS -- You are so right about using activities to learn math. I just realized he knows 360 degrees, 180, 720, etc. because he thinks skateboarding is cool. (He can't skateboard himself -- big coordination / balance problems!) Now if I could think of a fun activity that requires automatic recall of multiplication facts!

    Cym -- I'll try getting some math puzzles/enigma books to see if that piques his interest. Back before elementary school started, when he was interested in math, he was pleased to figure out that there must be negative numbers and fractions. And I think he liked the idea that he was figuring out big thoughts about math, so a book of big concepts might intrigue him.

    Also, I'm wondering if I should get him some regular old math text books, where he can look through and see a concept explained and the arithmetic steps shown. He might learn just from browsing through them. He is foundering with TERC, which doesn't really have a text book that spells out math concepts OR arithmetic steps. In TERC, the concepts and algorithms are supposed to be "discovered," but the discovery is set up with problems that move along so incrementally that the "discovery" occurs in tiny pieces rather than chunks, and it doesn't feel like exciting discovery to him.

    Does anyone have suggestions for big picture books, puzzle books, and text books that you like?

    I've tried to explain that math is important for science. He responds with tears and worries that he wont' be able to be a scientist. I've tried to explain that memorizing the times tables is work, but it has value because it will allow him to start doing interesting things in math and science. So far, that alone hasn't been enough. Perhaps I just need to take it the next step and try to figure out some fun chemistry we can look at that requires knowledge of multiplication facts.

    Also, I realized that when I spoke to the teacher at the beginning of the year, I DIDN'T say exactly what I had said the year before. I provided his IEP with test scores (which we didn't have last year) and I did not give him a copy of Susan Winebrenner's book, which I think last year's teacher found valuable. Looking over that again today, I see she has many ideas for ways students can present reports and information that don't involve handwriting. Also, I think I need to revisit the IEP and ask about substitutions for written assignments (presentations on digital recorder, assemblages, etc.) and getting something saying he can use a keyboard for all writing.

    Once again, thanks for all these helpful responses.

    bk

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    We are home schooling, but the psychologist who tested our DS gave us some good advice that might help you, too. He told us that DS needs to do something he loves every day.

    Maybe rather than the more traditional afterschooling, you could tell your DS that he has two assignments: 1) learn something new every day, and 2) do something he loves every day. (And video games don't count!) The quicker he completes both assignments, the sooner he gets to his beloved video game. But that's not a bribe--just the facts of time management! If he can do something that meets both goals at once, so much the better for him!

    Oh, and our local gifted enrichment group just had a speaker who said that 3rd grade is often the point at which GT boys begin to have gender-based reasons for resisting the "smart kid" label. Maybe part of this is that he's struggling to fit in and be a "real boy" (as he sees it)? I guess 3rd grade is often the time when underachievement kicks in for boys. The main recommendation for fixing this is to make sure he has plenty of opportunities to pursue his particular interests and to have male mentors.

    And maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of advocating for more challenging work with the teacher. I'd certainly recommend that you do this. It's very hard to make up for 7 hours of school-time boredom with any activity after school. Something is going to have to change there, I think.

    I'm sorry. I know how awful it is to watch this happening. Hang in there!


    Kriston
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    It sounds like he is really worried that he can't do the times tables. What about this? http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/mthstrat.pdf

    Linda Silverman really pares down the number of facts that kids need to memorize.

    My DD8 really loves the Sir Cumference series:

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-7402237-7050343?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=sir+cumference

    The books can be used to teach math at several levels.

    Cathy

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