Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Acceleration to middle school from elementary scho

This is my first post. Glad to have found this forum. I hope this is posted in the right place.

My district is pro acceleration. Today we had a meeting regarding DD10 who is currently in 4th grade. The outcome of the meeting (long story short) is recommendation to promote her to the 6th grade in the fall.

I would love to hear from parents who have experience the elementary school to middle school leap.

A few factors for background:
--DD10 has been taking 6th grade gifted reading at the middle school for the past year. Just one class and she is doing fine (A+ no problems otherwise).

--The middle school is physically attached to the elementary school so staff access on both ends is possible.

--The school provide a gifted counselor, school psychologist and social worker. All are part of her "team" of coordinators.

--DD10 is profoundly gifted. Her WISC-IV scores were:
Verbal Comprehension Index 151 >99.9%
Perceptual Reasoning Index 141 99.7%
Working Memory Index 110 75%
Processing Speed 126 96%
Full Scale IQ 144 99.8%

Global Ability Index 156 >99.9

--ACT Explore taken this year: 99th percentile all subjects except math (75th) (percentile compared to 8th graders.

--MAP scores have her off the charts for even 8th graders in math, reading and language arts with a lexile of 1300+

Her teachers all say she will be fine but I am her mom and while I am honored to have such a bright daughter, I don't want her to be the smartest loneliest kid in school.

Ugh.

Have you asked your daughter what she thinks? If she is all for it, it will make a big difference. The fact that the two buildings are attached will make the transition much easier. If something becomes an issue, would she be given the opportunity to "fall back" for one subject? How do the receiving teachers feel about having her? That is the most important thing.

I would recommend that you look into the Iowa Acceleration Scales Manual. It takes all of the emotion and opinion out of the possibility of accelerating and gives you concrete points to consider.

Welcome - and congratulations and wow .....!

I think it's great that for once a school is acting positively - but I feel for you trying to take a decision regarding the social side of things. However, there's no guarantee your child will be any less lonely or happy staying where she is now - is there?

SENG would be a great place to take her in the summer - if not this year, next year?

I look back at my non-gifted school days - I don't think I would have been happier socially at a public school, I don't think I would necessarily have made more friends at a gifted school. I didn't make many friends in college where the general emphasis seemed to be "drink beer". I don't have many close friends now. I do regret not being given more recognition to grow my talents!

I think addressing social needs is really important - and I think the UP side here - yes there is an UP SIDE - YAY! - is that we have resources like DYS and SENG and internet to help us. We are aware of teenagers and middle school being a diffciult time - so that might be a strange balance to strike - but you have a really supportive school - and it sounds like a supportive staff!

Given as I can't get DS6 accelerated in school at all (!) ..I would say never hold a child back - you can only live for today. Don't worry about her in 3 yrs time ..worry only about today and just go by "What's the worst case scenario - and how easy would that be to fix"? v. "What's the BEST CASE scenario?"

I was about to add what BWB just posted - which is - can the situation be reversed with the school and can you homeschool if necessary later?

I agree that your daughter's opinion is very important - and BWB has far better advice to offer in regard to taking the non-emotional approach!!

"I would recommend that you look into the Iowa Acceleration Scales Manual. It takes all of the emotion and opinion out of the possibility of accelerating and gives you concrete points to consider."


Yes, that is EXACTLY what we did today (for two hours!). We had the district superintendent, the middle principal, the assistant middle school principal, the school pyschologist, the school social worker, her current 4th grade teacher, her current 6th grade teacher, and two gifted somebody or others from the middle school and we all walked though that puppy one question at a time.

She scored a 60 (so excellent and recommended for acceleration).

Catherine's thoughts on this (other than her comment that she'd been asked her thoughts 5 times recently) is that she is interested but nervous. She has finally made a few friends (who all live nearby) and she'd miss the big 5th grade overnight trip. I'm more concerned I guess with a very petite little bookworm in the big halls, full time, with older and more "worldly" kids.

Homeschool is not an option, and yes, can all be reversed. They plan regualr "mental health" kind of check ups to make sure she isn't miserable. My son skipped 1st to 2nd and this is what they do for him at school.

My first thought about this problem is to ask if she can go on the trip with her former classmates. Maybe you can make some kind of deal so that she gets her assignments done.

It's looking like my DS9 will go to middle school in September, so I'm asking some of the same questions you are. I don't think the academics will be an issue and am hoping that he'll fit in socially. There are 2-3 boys who are ten at the school and it goes through grade 12, so he'll grow into the age groups in a year or two.

I've been thinking about "least-worst" options lately and how difficult it is to find a challenging environment that also provides friends. It's not easy. Well, it's almost impossible.

If your DD is in a public school district, all her friends will move to the middle school in a year anyway, and she'll be able to eat lunch with them and hang around with them during free time.

It's not easy! I don't know if I've been of any help...but you're not alone.

Val

What is SENG? There is a SENG parent group that meets (but way far and during the work day) but I was not aware there was anything for children specifically.

Marieg - I'm DOK (drooling on keyboard) at your school!!!! Have you really had to fight hard or are they just this knowledgeable about gifted kids?

PS: I sent you a PM. (blinking icon at the top)

Dazey

My school (as I am learning!) apparently needs a big gold star out front!

My principal had gifted children and confided in me recently that he wanted children to have opportunities never offered to his children (he is also the elementary principal for the state of IL for the year)

The school psychologist is a SENG leader

Everything they have done for us has been proactive. I have never had to pay for a test, nor ask for one. I have only guided the conversations. I will say that when my DD was in fist grade, and first identified as being gifted (we thought all 6 yr olds were like her!) the option of acceleration was never discussed (in hindsight we wish it was). They just assembled a rag tag team and pulled her out for classes. When the district changed officers, they proposed more formal, structured methods of both identification and progress monitoring. Kudos for them. It was hard being the coordinator for all of this.

I've recently started a gifted parents group in my district and am learning even within this district, other parents have had very different experiences (most of them not as positive) and I hope we can make some changes that bring more equality to the district, at a minimum by bringing these differences to light.

SENG http://www.sengifted.org/smpg_parent_facilitatordirectory.shtml

Supporting the Emotional Needs of the Gifted - they have a summer conference coming up - you have to apply by May 31st I think - and they get gifted kids of the same age together - which helps them find friends/peers.

They have a bunch of ther resources too.

That is wonderful to have the elementary and middle schools attached. I was asked to skip my daughter when we moved here, but kept her in elementary. The middle school and up is so tough (drugs and pregnancy) that I might skip her through these a little more.

I loved her younger grades, but it gets really tough to be smart when they get older. She is really isolated in her school and the other kids ridicule her. It breaks my heart.

She will not homeschool. She loves going to school and loves her teachers and spends most of her time with them.

Hi, marieg!

You have two marvelous things going for you: the awesome gifted-friendly school district, and the proximity of elementary and junior high schools. I'm jealous :-)

I'm wondering if your choices might not be so binary (all middle school or all elementary). Have you or your district considered dual enrollment? This has been a wonderful option for many HG-EG-PG kids I know of. Even with schools separated by several miles, the Kindergarten bus often provides noon-time transportation from one school to another. And I even know a child who is triple-enrolled (high school, junior high, elementary school), with an educational program tailored to his individual needs, and with each subject at his own edge of development. Sounds a bit piecemeal, but it works for him and his family.

With those scores, it may be your daughter is pretty much at the same level all around, in which case dual enrollment wouldn't be best. It is particularly good for the so-called "spiky kids" or those with scatter, but to be realistic, lots of HG+ kids have some super high subjects and some moderately high ones....

My DS9 has current WISC-IV scores that are close or identical to those of your DD, particularly in VCI, PRI, and high GAI. It may appear superficially that he is well-rounded academically, with all subjects at the same very high level, but in reality he shows about a 1-4 grade spread as compared to our state curriculum guidelines -- everything in the GT range, but oh, what a range!

With your schools so closely proximated, is it possible your daughter could "float" back to her age-mates during lunch, for instance, or homeroom perhaps? Or for certain subjects, even if she simply worked independently some of that time, just surrounded by age-mates? It would depend on the set-up and scheduling at both schools, but you might want to check this out. Or once she's settled in the higher grade, this all might become a non-issue.

My ideal program for my DS would be to have him in about 3 different grades, 2-3 different schools. I had wanted him at middle school for the morning, with a return to elementary for lunch/recess and afternoons/specials with his age-mates. Best of both worlds. However, a rotating schedule at the middle school foiled our plans.

Thus, we are in the same boat as you, with similar scores, and only three choices that I can tell: a) binary choice between middle school and elementary, b) school-within-a-school (a completely differentiated program housed with his age-mates), or c) homeschooling.

Your DD sounds like the type who will thrive no matter where she is planted :-) And with the schools on your side, I'm just sure everything will work out great for her.

My best to you!
Advocate

Hi Advocate

I did mention at our meeting yesterday that DD would prefer to have a homeroom in 5th grade and go out for some subjects. That didn't get received too well. I think they really want an all or nothing approach to this. There may also be political issues at play--our elementary school is one of 5 in the district. There are two middle schools. Of the 5 elementary schools, only two were built attached to a middle school. That means potentially gifted kids in the other three elementary schools do not have the ability to float back and forth. There is no bus to move one or two kids around. Therefore offering that to my child makes it unfair to other children. I know this sounds wonky but the district is highly sensitive to have any one school being perceived as better than the other (don't get me started on that one!).

There was some comment made by the middle school principal that some 5th grade classes will be housed on the middle school side next year (we're closing one elementary school in the district and consolidating kids). This is not finalized and the elementary school principal commented aloud "we have to talk about that still." This would be optimal since she would see the other 5th graders, but in reality it won't be the same as being with them all day.

Last night I talked to her about this and she seemed very sad. She said she was really stuck between a rock and a hard place. She wants to have more challenging work but at the same time recognizes the complexity of all of this (what happens to orchestra, for example. She's in 4th grade now, she skips 5th grade and then shows up for 6th grade orchestra a year behind? Can this be "caught up" with lessons? I don't know). And then there is after school. She goes to a program now with kids K-5th that are bussed from the school to a nearby church. In middle school I hear there is a teen club run by the YMCA (not confirmed). I'm not sure I like that, nor the option of her coming home alone three days a week when I'm at work. The elementary school let's out at 3pm and the middle at 2:10pm!

The whole thing is stressing us out.


The other option is to keep her completely in 5th grade. They seem now less interested in pulling her out next year for 7th grade reading because it messes them all up when she gets to middle school (what will she do, they say. We can't take her to the high school and it won't work out etc etc.)

We reconvene in two weeks so hopefully there will be some more options presented.

oh it's all so complicated! Perhaps if she skips up, she'll be so happy being challenged, the other things will have less importance to her. WHat a tough place to be in.

I've spent all morning reading a number of academic papers supporting the acceleration of gifted students and showing, based on primary and secondary research, the positive affects socio-emotionally on gifted students.

This one is so moving to me it had me in tears:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/d_major_chord.htm

Is there no way she could go to the after school program with the younger kids. That would be ideal because she'd be given the opportunity to spend some time with her friends. I agree with Dottie in that you have to weigh the importance of orchestra and other extra curricular activities. How serious is your daughter about music? Can she take private lessons over the summer to gain ground? These are all things to consider. I'm going through the same mess myself so I can commiserate!

Marieg,
My, our DDs are so similar in scores. Mine is 9, in 3rd. We have been doing the GLL classes (gifted links through Northwestern) and also a one day a week pull out program through the county. Otherwise, she stayed with her grade. I have to say that I admire your questions and your thoughts about skipping a whole grade, I wish I had had better advice and such a supportive team, we might have done/will do the same. You are obviously caught in a real bind over this, and I'll be watching to see how it goes! Please keep us updated.

I still feel pretty new here and hesitate to offer my two cents but here goes anyhow--

Marieg, I think if I were in your shoes I would advance my daughter. She seems like she's open and supportive of the idea from what you said. I think the music issue can be worked out (with private lessons, etc.).

She is obviously very gifted and will no doubt handle the academic shift (it might still not be enough over time). And she will make friends in her new grade. You can help her to sustain her current friendships outside of the classroom.

You have obviously given this great thought. I too have done lots of reading on acceleration (our school district has no gifted program so it is really the only alternative besides homeschool for my DS--we are HSing BTW) and all it has done is strengthened my belief that when done thoughtfully, acceleration is a good thing. Trust your gut. The details will work themselves out.

Good luck. I feel for you .

Marieg,


Sounds like you have a great school.

My acceleration from 4th into 6th was my 2d acceleration. I started out in 6th for reading and then math and then just went into 6th after the break. It was the smoothest of all my accelerations. Even then I was bored and was often left to read on my own in all periods once I had done my work in about the first 10 minutes of each period.

Something to keep in mind - I would assume from your DD scores, that her situation is close to mine in that she will still not be deeply challenged with a +1 jump. It was not until I jumped 3 grades ( 7th to 10th ) when I was a bit older that I really got traction. So, you may be looking at another jump in the future.

She is probably equally gifted at math, but has not had the depth of exposure that she has on the verbal side. I did not receive much in the way of math until my 4th grade year and just leapt forward once it was presented to me - and then coupled with the jump, I found it interesting and dove right in. The teacher gave me extra stuff to work on and then books to read. Something to consider.

As for friends, I was athletic and made friends easily during pickup games during lunch, so that may not be representative of your DD situation. Sports kept me anchored to both my age and class peers though I shared little else in common. ( During my jump from 7th to 10th, I did athletics at the jr high, then went over to the HS for class. )

The hardest part at the beginning was getting used to the new routine and the size difference. But, once the first skip occurs, the next ones are easier to adjust to. I never suffered any issues from older classmates when I skipped.

Edit:

I just wanted to add that once I got my first taste of older company, I lost a lot of interest in being with my age peers socially and wanted to be with kids 2-5 years older than I was or even adults. I joined local astronomy, computing, and reading clubs and was planning my day trips and activities without my parents being directly involved other than letting them know where I was going. I am glad my mom did not think I had to have age-peers.

The current elementary school after school program doesn't have her friends in it (they all go home every day and I work three days a week in the office). I think the issue is where she would go the 50 minutes between middle school dismissal and elementary school dismissal. I believe there are after school programs for the middle school (they were mentioning them to me yesterday). It is all pretty new and I don't have all the info yet. I am just leary of sending her to a "teen program" with 12-14 year olds.

My son was accelerated mid year from 1st to 2nd and it worked out fine. But he is completely the most outgoing and social kid there is. He adjusted in 30 seconds. But it seems a bigger deal once they get older. And DD is tiny---10% percentile in hieght (we call her fun sized). I half jokingly told her she should try out for cheerleading in middle school because she'd always be at the top of the pyramid. She looked straight at me and said in her serious voice: "you recall I'm afraid of heights."

Ah well.

I'll offer my opinion...girls are so often overlooked with acceleration, or even identification. You daughter is clearly very very gifted. Clearly able to do advanced work (99% on EXPLORE--an 8th grade normed test). She needs acceleration, and like Austin said, probably more than just one year. People (me included) seem to try to simulate a "normal" experience for these very bright kids...which is not appropriate because they are not "normal". If she's at all willing to do it, I would ask her to try it.

PS. I have a son who skipped 5th and he had no trouble academically or socially. He still was the top student. The only downside was maturing physically later than his friends, but he has survived puberty and is a strapping 14 yr old sophomore.

I so agree, Cym! We have to keep in mind that their normal is just different, by definition. Yes!

Heheh. Sounds like she'll do fine. Heheh.

I have always kept my daughter in her grade level due to my concerns of puberty. This was never a problem in our last school because it was so challenging. However, the funny thing is that she ended up maturing early, even though she has a summer birthday and ended up looking physically older than she is. LOL

We went to the library today and looked at the text books for the district in the reference section (nice they have them all there). The science and social studies for 6th grade looks pretty easy for her. The math could be tricky. She has not done pre algebra yet. My husband suggests we teach her whatever she needs to catch her up in math (her gifted math program now has completed all of 5th grade math and half of normal 6th grade math. Skipping 5th grade gifted math means instead of entering 6th grade having completed all of 6th and half of seventh, she's a year behind). I'm wondering if WE can do that. And of course, HOW? I wonder if the school would tell us what we need to do.

depending on the school, I've found that a lot of what is taught in the first month or two (or three) is review. She might get a good "review" of 5th grade math early in 6th.

The school here has three levels of math in 6th grade:

6th grade regular math (which she's done half a year of already in 4th grade)
6th grade "advanced" math (which is technically 7th grade math)
6th grade "Gifted" math (which is technically 8th grade math)

She needs placement in at least the "advanced" math to qualify for gifted science. She will already qualify for gifted social studies, reading and language arts.

They want her to take a placement test they give to ALL incoming 6th graders to determine level. Granted she WAY outscores the 8th grader average on the MAP test for math already (we aren't sure WHY this is---she has trouble with rapid calculation, has not really memorized the multiplication tables but she is good on these tests).

I don't want her to take endless tests, but also don't want to dump her into 8th grade math. She'd be just fine in the "advanced" class, but am bummed out that IF she stayed in 5th grade gifted math next year, she WOULD be in gifted 6th grade math and learn so much more. Math isn't her favorite, granted.

This morning she told me she is 100% for going to the 6th grade. I haven't been sleeping because of the stress of this and other things so that made my day.

Hi Marieg,
Welcome! I'm so glad that you have a place to talk about all this - it's really cool and really a big deal.

You've gotten some great advice. I can second the Aleks.com for hole plugging - it's a great idea, and not taxing - you may need to look up a few things in 'homework help.com' or a text book from time to time, but it's great for 'speed learning/review.'

What a relief that she is 100% for 6th grade! But don't be suprised if some feelings come up between now and then. With her test scores, I would have been willing to reccomend some serious arm twisting if she hadn't been so confident. I like that Gross Article from Hoagies - remember when you read it, that those 'high-sounding IQ scores' are on an older test (SB-LM) but basically is exactly like what your daughter scored on her modern test. I call it 'old Coke v. new Coke' to keep it all straight in my mind. You don't really have to understand all the nuances, just keep in mind that the scores you posted are just as high for the modern IQ tests as the kids that Gross Studies. You may want to get your hands on the raw data from your test and get 'extended norm' scores to help you keep track as you read through the older literature. (there is a post about that on it's own topic from today)

As for Aftercare - I totally sympathize. The only way to know how supervised the programs are is to observe them or at least chat up the teacher. Perhaps there is a library or a private aftercare that would work better, but if the 12-14s are well supervised in their aftercare programs, it may be ok. Can she start with the older kids, and have the option of visiting the younger group, perhaps in a helping role, at 3pm?

As for keeping a foot in the 5th grade world, there seem to be some children who are 'citizens of the world' and hop around with glee, and others, like my son, who just want to 'fly under the radar' and really identify with their grade. After all, we use the same word to sort children in schools as we do for sorting eggs, and I can feel a not-so-subtle vibe of 'older is better' whispering in the school halls. I wish it wasn't so, but I believe it is there to some extent.

Anyway, whatever you decide, there is sure to be more excitement to come. Hopefully by being nervous here, you can put on a show of a confident and hopeful exterior to your DD, so she can have that comfort. Not that we can really fool our kids much, but they do appreciate our efforts, I think.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Which textbooks? This really matters. Some are easier for parents to understand than others.