Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Rufs level of giftedness

I have seen some posts on here refer to Rufs levels of giftedness. I have looked this up and have been reading up on it. Some of you have referred to your child as being Ruf 4 or 5 etc...is this just determined by Ruf's list of characteristics etc or is there some formal evaluation to determine that? Just curious!

I've only begun to scratch the surface when it comes to researching info on highly gifted kids. We've always known that dd was advanced but only the last few years have we really started to suspect that "advanced" is a bit of an understatement. I welcome any suggestions on literature or articles regarding HG kids! Im suspecting that Ruf is a pretty respected author/dr/ etc. Ive heard of her before but have not read her book.

Hi,

My daughter easily met or exceeded all of the listed milestones for �Summary of Level Four Gifted� on pages 158-159 of �Losing Our Minds�. Our son exceeded all of the same milestones, but only met approx. 50% of milestone for �Summary of Level Five Gifted� on pages 192-193. As for the more subjective part,many of the �anecdotes� describing what different level children were interested in, said and made did not astonish my husband and I as we considered what our own kids were doing at those same ages.

However, I have mentioned before that it is easier to see the difference between gifted kids and bright kids when they are toddlers and in pre-school. My (2E) daughter does not usually hit the 99th percentile on nationally normed tests (IQ or achievement) any longer although she presents as a (slightly) stronger student on report cards than her YS brother.

Unfortunately, I can�t imagine many schools consider early milestones as significant evidence for early placement decisions, although, I think they should.

Is there a site online which details these levels? I don't have Ruf's book. What do the levels tell us? Is it along the lines of Gifted/Highly Gifted/Exceptionally Gifted/Profoundly Gifted? Or something different?

Two books that I do have and thought were interesting are:
Nature's Gambit by David Henry Feldman
and
Exceptionally Gifted Children by Miraca U.M. Gross

I remember reading case studies in these books when our son was very young and being surprised that the case studies were exceptional. At the time, I didn't have much experience with kids and just assumed our son was average. We were involved in a very small neighborhood playgroup of 3 toddlers that consisted of one boy who was clearly a low-functioning autistic and one girl who was what I considered "normal" and now know was PG. At the time I didn't really know the difference. Our son and the girl got along famously. I remember many anecdotes that didn't seem remarkable at the time but now, after having spent time with a wide variety of children, are astounding.

Unfortunately, the little girl's family moved away. At the time I didn't realize how unusual it was for our son to find a friend who was his intellectual peer. Now, our son is yearning to find a friend with whom he can talk about his interests, and I'm sad that we haven't yet found someone(s) for him.

I'm sorry for that tangent.

E

There's a link over in reccomended resources. I'll try to find it and bring it to the front of the list.
Thanks for the book reference, and the story - Too Wonderful! I call it Gifted Denial, but really, a lot of it is true innocence!

No need to appologise for the tangent - although starting a new topic is always a good thing - still I think that's close enough to being on topic.

Smiles,
Trinity

J, I agree on many levels. Many professionals argue that once you are more than 3 standard deviations from the mean on an IQ test, another 10 points is noise. For us, the results from IQ and achievement testing meant what they meant for you: that now I can confidently apply for service for my kid. Also, that all of our theories about his abilities are confirmed.

We never presented Santa in a traditional way, either. I always told our son, "we pretend to be Santa to plan fun surprises for other people." He thought it was great fun to go elfing around the neighborhood with containers of homemade fudge a few days before Christmas. He was interested in the myth of Santa (L. Frank Baum's book is an amazing version!) just as he has always been fascinated with cultural myths in general.

As far as the tooth fairy goes, he has always known it is me, but really enjoys the pretend game of it. On a similar note, we did the Hogwarts Summer Correspondence Course this year, and I could tell that he knew it was really me doing the magic. But he so enjoyed the fantasy that he didn't want to talk too much about the "mom behind the curtain."

E

This is a great conversation to be having. I'm a "levels" girl. To me the idea that my child was going to be gifted in the regular sense of the word was have been a matter of course - what threw me was the "one giant step" beyond "normal gifted" than my son turned out to be. And I know now that many kids in the YSP program are "one giant step" beyond my kid.

I'm convinsed that the reason Gifted Education is so unpopular amoung school folks is that without an understanding of the various levels of giftedness any program, policy or position is doomed to fail, much of the time. Dottie did some math with me, and we figured that in an average population, 1 of 14 of the identified gifted kids would qualify for the YSP. So that's a lot of kids who would feel miserably out of place with accomidations aimed at the top 2%. No wonder there is so much disenchantment with gradeskipping and other gifted programming. For 1 of 14 the single skip may land them right back where they were, unchallenged at the top of the class! How un-reinforcing!

I like the Ruf levels because
1) The nature of our conversation necessitates trying to be as thoughful as possible, and being able to have a shorthand way of communicating level really helps us know what we are talking about.
2) Lots of Parents here have not had testing. They may need to decide if they want testing, and if so, can they assume that the local tester will be experienced enough to be worth the money? Must they plan on making a family travel vacation out of it? How else is one to know? Since there children are still young, they may remember the milestones better than I did. ((I've tried to get a level for my son, and I can't remember anywhere near enough detail - but I already have WISC results, and I already found out that a well-meaning local tester was almost worst than useless in our situation.))
3) Most Gifted children have gifted Parents and cousins, so it's almost as difficult for us to "get a feel" for what a true normal is like, as it is for school folks to percieve what a Level III kid is like.

What I don't like about the Ruf Levels -
1) They don't work for 2E kids. They may help detect a hidden 2E, but it's not going to every be easy to get a level on a 2E kid.
2) There is not modern IQ test to check them against. I agree with "J" that we really really don't have a way to test beyond 140. I like how Bob Davidson put it at the last Gathering: Children who are beyond the ability of IQ tests to measure.
So we'll have to wait 30 years and ask each other - Did your Level 5 have to study in College? In Graduate School? Did your Level 4 stick with her early area of giftedness? Were the skips enough or too much?

So, Do I think the Levels are the last word in identification? No, of course not, but they are a wonderful first word.

((Oh I can't wait to hear what you all think of this!))
smiles,
Trinity

My one other contribution to this fascinating conversation, before I have to abandon the computer and get some "real" work done, is this:

For me, the official identification of the achievement and IQ test results is a huge relief. I can move ahead with the plan to apply for specialized services.

Beyond that, my focus is (and has always been) on character. I think that within the GT community, there can be a danger of placing too much emphasis on intelligence, because we are all focused on finding accommodations for our unusual children. My child is profoundly gifted, but that isn't the sum of who he is...and I will do whatever it takes to keep him from being identified as nothing more than a really smart kid. There is so much more to who he is as a person; the test results are just one component of his character. In isolation, that information isn't very meaningful.

What does he want to do with his incredible mind? How about his emotional intelligence? Can I help him develop a broader sense of empathy? Creativity? Kindness? None of these things can be empirically tested, yet to me they are crucial pieces of his development as a person--just as crucial as his intellectual development.

Ruf's scale, test results, and all other ways of trying to quantify intelligence can be helpful. But I'm always reminding myself not to overemphasize that information, or view it apart from the holistic picture of my child.

E

I totally agree with this statement. I do think that having these results, scales and quantifications of intelligence are very important and necessary for us to know and understand as parents. Knowing your child is very smart is quite different than knowing your child is profoundly gifted and so I am glad to see there is a way of recognizing and understanding the levels of giftedness. I am finding that the more I read the more I understand some of my dd's behaviors and ways of looking at the world in general. It has also helped me to advocate for her, to make sure she is getting the enrichment that she not only needs but desires.

I really wish more was done in the schools to educate teachers to recognize and appropriately address the different levels of giftedness that exists. So much attention and focus is on children that are below average. Teachers are considerably more versed in the varying degrees of underachieving students. While this is absolutely valuable to those kids I'd love to see the same attention to detail when it comes to high achieving students. (did that make sense? my 2 yr old keeps running past me roaring like a dinosaur! I cant focus!) haha....

I think it will help to realize that LOG (Levels of Giftedness) is just now starting to be written about and thought about by Parents, Professionals,and School Folks. We're on the cutting edge. I would guess that of all the books published in the last 5 years on the topic of Gifted, only half a percent have LOG as more than a sidebar. Even in the last year, I'd guess it's less than 10%. Does anyone have real numbers for this? I'm totally guessing here.

Another "Brand new concept" is tht Full Scale scores mean very little. Since we are looking at Giftedness as a special educational need, even a single ceiling score in one subtest might be enough to be a signpost for a kid who is acting like a kid whos special educational needs aren't being met.

The idea of twice exceptional kids was yesterday's new frontier. Now most Professionals see this as a must address topic, and even some school are making attempts at helping our kids. The battle is by no means won, but it is "on the mental map" in a way that LOG is not yet.

Ironically, when we ask the public school about subject acceleration, they said :You think you kid is Gifted? He's nothing like a little girl we have at the Middle School. We told the parents that she needed to be skipped, but they said they didn't want that for her. ((Hint, hint - why can't you be like them?)) They do allow us to bus her to the high school for Math.

Of course I couldn't ask for details, but I was curious. If she is "more gifted" than my DS11, then perhaps a single year skip just wasn't worth her time. Or was she better at reading people and teacher pleasing? Or had she been red shirted to begin with? I wish her all the best, but I felt that the school had trotted out this example to "take me down a peg or two." You would have thought I was asking for the world!

New school totally gets that he is unusually bright, and all thumbs at negotiating the world of school. When I said he reminded me of a sports car with the wheels taken off, overheating his engine up on cement blocks - they all smiled. Well, except for one who seems especially worried about his lack of tires. Cool thing is that I can see the "tires" growing, right before my eyes! I am so proud of him. I didn't know if the school change would work, so I kept repeating - I want him to have a clean chance at learning how to learn. To DH, to DS, to the new school and the old school. I wasn't trying to fix him, just to give him the needed materials so he could grow himself.

Last night there was a lot of upset floating around during homework time, amplified by an unusual amount of homework. He suggested that he work for 10 minutes, then be allowed to watch TV for 5 minutes. At first I thought that was a very bad idea, since there was so much to do, and it was getting late. But I realized that he was still so upset over the various dissapointments of the day, that having chances to "turn off" himself probably made sense. I was so proud of how responsibly he turned off the TV when the timer rang, and worked hard during his working chunks.

Me: You know, I'd almost never agree to this, but I figure today you need to distract yourself to get the work done.
DS: It's not that. It's just that my brain wants to watch TV, but I want to get my homework done.

Here come those baby tires now!
Smiles,
Trinity

Ouch, I'm laughing so hard it hurt over that!
trin