Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Defiant, resistant, and anxious

I am wondering if anyone has any advice or experience with a PG child who appears to simply hate doing schoolwork of any kind.

When I try to get my ds6 to do any work with me at home, he gets really defiant and resistant, and it almost always turns into a big power struggle. Fun times!

He "hates school" as well, and I suspect the ridiculous joyless pressures of first grade have killed much of his love of learning. (Though, to be honest, he never cared much for workbooks.)

And when I try to work with him, we are so quickly at each other's throats that I think homeschooling is a terrible idea.

He may be ADHD...I don't know.

I just never knew it was possible for a 6-yr-old child to get this depressed and burned out!

My DS was (and is) the same way with homework. I've been silently protesting homework since he started school - personally, I'd like to see homework banned altogether, but that's another issue.

I don't really have any advice, but having had the knock-down, drag-outs over writing spelling words 5x (never mind that he could spell them from the get-go), I sympathize. I just think DS hated doing things that he felt were a waste of time and that he wasn't getting anything from. I don't know what the answer or magic trick is, though. Fortunately, he really doesn't have much work for home right now and what he does have is mildly stimulating.

Good luck.

Is he fighting doing homework with you? Or is this additional work you want to do with him? I found that by 1st grade after a HORRIBLE K year of learning nothing and being quite depressed, afterschooling dwindled to nothing. He was just too burnt out at the end of the day. It was all I could do to get him to do his homework. I really would not try to get him to do additional work if he's having a terrible time at school. I would ask him what he wants to learn about and facilitate him doing that. I've been reading a lot about various homeschooling philosophies and which one works best for my DS, now a 3rd grader. He's not a workbook kid. He wants to be doing, and discussing. He likes what history documentaries to go along w/ the history we are reading about. He is very conceptual and makes huge leaps in concepts but doesn't like the babysteps along the way. This was a very poor fit for public school. The pace was too slow.

Homeschooling is very different from when they are in school. Some try to give it a test drive during summer. I haven't seen where this works well b/c kids need that decompression time which can some times take most of the summer. I found by the time when DS was relaxed and happy and eager to learn again, it was time to go back to school.

Yes it is possible at only 6yrs old.....

DS-then-6 took FOREVER to do his 1st grade homework. Most of it was leftovers from the school day that he hadn't finished. He was too busy working out disagreements between his classmates or socializing or...anything but working on that boring stuff!

I think it mattered that his teacher's background was in remedial reading, and when I sat in on her class, I saw that even the ND kids were bored silly: she gave the answer to one exercise SEVEN TIMES! Literally! I counted! Gave them the whole answer! The kids were *all* antsy and bored, yet she didn't understand why she was having so many behavior problems...*sigh*

Anyway, we spent SO MUCH TIME on his homework, and it was awful for both of us. He wasn't so much actively disobeying as he was just physically unable to stand it. He was doing his best, but he just couldn't take it after a day of boredom. He was angry and frustrated and just done. More boredom at home was more than he could take.

After 6 weeks or so of holding his feet to the fire, it was clear that something had to change. We chose homeschooling, but anything that got him a challenge would have been a step up.

We now spend only slightly more time on homeschooling than we spent on homework a night, and he's racing through material. We get along *so much better*! Really! The struggle over homework is over. He's not frustrated and angry anymore; he's happy and flourishing! It's amazing what a little challenge can do.

That's not to say we never have a bad day. We do, of course. But it's a rare exception instead of standard practice. It's manageable.

As long as your DS has bought into homeschooling, and he is willing to accept that he has a responsibility to do the work that you give him, then I think HSing will go just fine. I talked a lot with my DS about the fact that I was promising the state that I would educate him, and that he had a duty to uphold. He's a kid who takes responsibility seriously, so that worked like a charm. He wants to HS, so he plays team with me.

If your DS is resisting HSing, too, and not just boring homework, then you might have a problem. But if he understands what HSing will entail and he buys in, I suspect things will go better once he's not being worn down by an inappropriate fit at school all day. That was certainly our experience. Homeschooling is WAY easier than homework ever was! Honest!

If you want to talk more, keep talking. But what you're experiencing is not unusual.

P.S. You might need to do some deschooling for a while after this year. Kids who were really worn down by school sometimes need time to get over it. Something of the decompression time that Dazey is talking about...

Basically what I'm saying is just don't expect to dive right in if he's really depressed and miserable. Let him recover, even if that means non-stop play for a little while. GT kids who are craving challenge usually get bored with non-stop play pretty fast and are eager for more actual work. You can limit/rule out TV and video games if you like, but letting him have some mindless fun for a while might make the work easier on both of you in the long run.

Yes, Minnie, you're fine.

And that passage helped me a lot, too. It really changed the way I approached anyone who seems defiant, not just my kids.

Great wisdom!

Thanks, Kriston! (Gosh, I'm glad you're here!)

mm

Back atcha!

Minnimarx - thank you for posting that! Certainly a lot to think about in that short passage. A friend is dealing w/ that very thing, I think. I've seen it in my DS.

Minnie,
Thanks, that really is a great quote. That does ring true to our situation. I feel that we have lost our way, like Dante in the woods of his 30th year... only I'm 40 and he's 6.

We've lost our joy. I do feel like the best path is to "deschool" him and let him find his own path again. The only thing that really matters is that he gets his joy back-- obviously the stupid math worksheets don't REALLY matter.

But I get so bogged down. His reaction scares me.

By the way it is both homework and HSing stuff, though the HSing stuff is if anything a little worse. Maybe because I get angrier myself.

I could say he's just bored by the busywork of the homework, but the truth is he gets the spelling words wrong.

My husband says-- this child is not gifted, we need a different way to define gifted, because this is not it.

I guess I have just tried too hard to make him conform to what I thought he should be doing?

Anyway, I'm rambling.

And if he's getting the spelling words wrong, I'm betting he's frustrated. And feeling stupid and defensive.

He's got deschooling written all over him!

Can you pull him out of school now?

What will happen if you blow off the school's homework? What if you forbid to let them take away recess? (I know of a mom who did this in my son's 1st grade class. She marched in and said that recess was mandatory for her child because he needed the exercise, and that if they took it away, she'd pull him out right then. The teacher backed down. Might be worth a try--in a milder manner, of course...)

I might suggest even letting the afterschooling fall by the wayside unless it's fun for him. This is a kid who needs some fun with his learning! I think you're right that he needs to remember that learning and joy can go together. He needs opportunities for discovery, not more worksheets and spelling words.

(BTW, being GT and being a good speller don't necessarily go together. Try some conceptual work with him: geometry or poetry or something with big ideas involved.)

Focus on his strengths! He needs some boosting up right now, I think.

FWIW...

Thanks, Kriston.
He does have deschooling written all over him.

I guess I'm afraid if I let him out of the stable he'll... never come back. I think he could play for a long long time before it ever occurred to him that he'd like to do some "work." Like, forever.

Or... maybe after a few months he would come to it on his own, with inner motivation. It just feels like a huge gamble.

By the way I don't do afterschooling with him at all. I read about some of your kids coming home from school needing MORE, and I am amazed. But some days I keep him home from school, just because he hates it so much and the weather is nice and I want to experiment with keeping him home, and it's usually a disaster-- at some point in the day we both wind up crying. I'm afraid our relation has just become completely dysfunctional.

I think I should really just let him coast through the rest of the school year.

You really can't keep him out for a day and test things out. He is too emotionally charged for it right now. He will need some time to bounce back emotionally. I say let him coast. He has his whole life ahead of him. Line up some good videos he might like. IF he's into science, get some NOVA science shows. Watch them together and discuss them...not quizzing just discussing. We love watching cooking shows together on the Food Network or Cash Cab! In the First Year of Home schooling book I'm reading by Linda Dobson (highly recommend) she says you have to basically learn to enjoy being with your child again and vice versa. Not much learning is going to happen until that happens. I had to do that w/ my own son in January. We dropped most of our HSing for the month of Jan and Feb and March. We're now just getting going again but we needed to find the fun and just enjoy being together.

Did you post in another thread that you've decided to HS? Do you want him to finish out the year or are you still on the fence?

I totally agree with Dazey. You can't tell anything from a day, especially not when both of you are so raw.

Fun. Nothing but fun.

Fun doesn't mean no learning. Fun just means no teaching. That's the simplest way I can explain that.

Go on walks. Talk about what he likes to do. Read silly poems and stories for fun. Draw pictures together. Play board games. Build with Legos.

Fun.

Forget trying to teach him. Right now, you're the student and your job is to learn about your child. How does he learn? What excites him? (And how can you do more of this?) What doesn't work at all? (And how can you do less of this?)

His job is simply to relax and be himself again. Nothing more than that. You should be the one doing all the work. His psyche is in an invisible cast!

Don't worry about his not coming back to learning. Forever is a long time away! I promise you that if it comes to that, you can corral him back.

But I'll bet you money that you won't have to. Let him find himself again, and then when he's healed, you can ask "What do you want to learn this year?" I'll bet you he'll have an answer. You may have to tweak it a bit, but if you follow his lead, he'll get into it. All kids--but especially GT ones--are born learners.

But not while he's so bruised and broken.

Read the Rivero book. It's really useful.

And remember that for every minute a child spends on weaknesses, he should spend 3 or more minutes of school time on things he's good at. I recommend making "Do something you love every day" a requirement for your son. That was the best thing I did our first year of homeschooling. It reminded both of us that life should be fun, and it kept us from making everything else a higher priority.

If you're crying, you're doing it wrong. Relax. It will get better.

{{{{Hugs!}}}}

guys, that was a fantastic quote, and these are fantastic thoughts. I'm going to have to think about these a lot. My oldest is so darn stormy and miserable - it's not even glass half empty. We're literally arguing about whether there is ANY water in the glass. And my middle is this sudden rage, can't even be looked at kiddo at 3.5, leaving me wondering, what's not right in HIS environment? I'm not even sure. He's mostly been so happy with his preschool. But he can't handle thwarting or mistakes. I think it might have something to do with trying to keep up with his nearly 7.5 yo brother. I wish I were either brave enough, or had a double, so I could just up and decide to homeschool starting tomorrow. I think my oldest would about die of shock but then might recover. But my baby consistently wakes every hour. Sometimes two, sometimes ten minutes...but generally, on the hour. (gee, the 3yos problem couldn't have anything to do with this, could it?!) I just don't think I can educate anyone like this. Am I wrong? Can you homeschool with no brain or energy and very small kids around? Can you work (generally, but not entirely, from home) while homeschooling? I think I've had this conception of homeschooling as me and the kids at the kitchen table all day. I know I can't do that...but I'm not sure what is possible.

Well, it's not all day, so that would help. With a willing student, a couple/3 hours are enough to get in the academics. But you probably would need a little child care help with the baby at least. And sleep *is* useful for one trying to teach...

There is a sense of peace that often comes with homeschooling. Schedules can be made easier, mid-day naps are more possible if you need them, stuff like that.

But honestly, it would be tough to HS on no sleep. It *is* possible--I have a friend who did it with a newborn and a 9yo! She had just the two kids, but she was also writing a dissertation (!!!), so I'd say that's pretty comparable to your situation. She's very anal about stuff, so she just went on no sleep. It was NOT something I'd recommend. (But then I am a bear without sleep!)

Can your DH take a night here or there so you can sleep? Can you get a sitter for a couple of hours each day so you can nap? Something? How old is your baby now? Old enough to let him cry it out yet? (Sometimes that's a matter of survival for mom, I think!)

How self-motivated is your DS7? Would he do "homework" on his own while you were otherwise occupied, or would you have to stand over him the whole time?

"If you're crying, you're doing it wrong."

Thanks, Kriston. That made me laugh.

What makes me think I could do this is that I used to be such a great parent for him. Until he started school.

NYC is an amazing place to raise a kid, we were out every day because he needed so much stimulation.

Montana, I have a baby too-- and a terrible sleeper.
And I work at night, I am "working" right now.

This is another reason homeschooling appeals to me-- because my dh and I both need to work, and can't afford a nanny, I have to work evenings and weekend mornings-- eroding my time with my 6yo. But is that an appropriate reason to homeschool?

To answer Dazey's question I am still on the fence, I promised his school I would put the idea of homeschooling aside for this year, but I'm still drawn to it!

If he's not getting what he needs at school and you can give it to him, then yes! It's a great reason!

I don't mean to sound like a homeschooling pusher. I'm not one, really. (See my cautious reply above to Montana for evidence.)

It's just that it is so clear that your DS's problems are school-related, and the school has been so negative about it all. I kind of think the same thing about your situation that I thought about ours: what have you got to lose by trying it? Worst case, you put him back in, right? Or is there some risk to removing him that I'm not considering?

P.S. I'm glad I made you smile. You need more of that!

Montana - can you wait until Fall to start HSing? the baby will hopefully be a bit more settled. Also, while not ideal, when I had my baby, I could trust DS7 and DS4 to sit and watch TV while I napped for an hour or so. Can you trust your boys to do that? I needed those naps.

Also, what is your older son like? Can you go over say math, history, writing and then expect him to sit and do the work on his own? Some have miraculous kids like that lol but I don't. Or, can DH do some of the HSing in the evenings when he's home? Also, you can do whatever schedule. You can say take Mon-Tues as weekends and let kids play, and HS on Sat and Sun when Dh is there to help.

Some of the issues w/ the 3.5yr old could be the new baby. Even w/ the 7.5yr old especially if things aren't going well at school. Believe me, I know how hard it is to sort things out.
hugs

Dazey

WOW! YEAH BABY!!! Nail on the head! Love it love it love it! While I felt I knew my son through afterschooling, getting to know the learner he had become while away at school for 3yrs was a different story!

I'm glad that resonated for you, too, Dazey. I really feel like last year was all about MY learning. Only this year is it really about his learning.

Not that he didn't learn school stuff last year. He did. But that was really secondary to what I learned about how to work with him, what he needed, what he was capable of doing.

Then, this year, he just TOOK OFF! All the scrambling around in the dark was over. We knew what we were doing, we had a system down, and it just WORKS! His progress amazes me. His confidence and joy make me happy. His focus on his work and love of learning really make me proud of him.

I'm getting sappy, so I need to shut up! But you know what I mean. He's just blossomed this year. It's really a good fit for him. But it took some time to get to that point.

To answer your question about the risk: he goes to a public gifted school, and if I take him out I can't put him back.
A thousand people would kill to have our spot.
The school has actually been pretty supportive.
But it's really a terrible setting for my son.
Half the boys in the class have terrible problems.
It really serves girls better.

Our zoned school is terrible-- full of underperforming kids.

So there's a risk. But not one I care that much about right now.

Though the whole thing reminds me a little (or I'm afraid it does) of the time I gave up a full scholarship to a great university based on some weird anti-elitist communist things I had going on at the time. I hope I'm not foisting my own nihilism on my son.

LOL! No, if he's not happy, that's not your nihilism. It's always good to ask the question though. If you're asking, you're probably not screwing up, you know?

How does he feel about the idea of homeschooling?

Thanks MinnieM - great passage to share especially as my little one is often so defiant. Since Montessori they told me " he seems to see adults as someone that will come along and ruin his fun/fight with him/stop him being himself" - instead of helpers. Still working on getting over that - and school in general doesn't seem to help.

BronxMom - didn't your son just have surgery though? I may have missed the news on another post - but if he did, I would thik he would need tons of time to recover and get back to normal, and he had that bad infection which has probably worn him out too.

I see a difference in DS6 after just 3-10 days at home with no school v. school days - when he is worn out and then "homework" or evening "homeschool" for enrichment is hard. Last week he started yelling that he watnd to finish his spelling. I told him I was sure he was too tired, could see he would - and once he yelled I said I wouldn't continue when he was in such a state - but I kept calm myself. Makes it worse if you get angry too. He tantrumed and cried and went to time out - and then I gave him a braek whilst I took my shower. Then he calmed down and wanted to complete it - but it made me realise that his mood needs to be taken into account before we start. Schools wears him out.

Hang in there. Maybe if you don't "try" it will get easier. Is he still in school?

hi, everybody--

This is mostly just a note to let you know that I'm thinking of all of you! I had a few, very random, thoughts more (sorry not to be more coherent here):

How is your son's health, bronxmom? Wasn't he having all those funny strep things? He may be feeling really crummy, on top of all the stuff at school. As Dazey and Kriston say, it might well be time just to have a break. An awful lot of stuff is "educational," without being school-y. Helping you take care of the baby would be very educational! Or helping you with your tax return (I still remember sorting receipts for my dad when I was little--I learned a lot about the farm that way). Cooking together is good, grocery shopping together is good, planting some radishes in a flowerpot is good, going for a walk in the park looking for signs of spring is very good....

You know, I really, really don't like the taking recess away--not only do kids need the break to run around, they need not to be put in a position where they are shamed. Not nice.

This is subversive, and possibly not super-ethical, but if you decide to have him finish the year at school, what would you think about just *doing* his homework yourself? (ack! ducks while people throw brickbats...) If it's something you know that he knows, and it is just frustrating him and making him unhappy to have to trudge through it, it might be worth thinking over setting one's moral qualms aside and just getting it over with, so that he can survive the year. I think lessons in academic integrity could come up some other year, when he's in better shape.

montana, three kids are just hard some days--I'm sorry the baby's not sleeping better--it's so hard to cope when you're tired. I am not trying to talk you into homeschooling at all, but one reason that it works well for us is that the boys have such different sleep schedules. I get a lot done with Groucho early in the morning while Harpo is still sleeping, for instance.

Sorry you're having some hard days, too, IronMom--I think this is a difficult time of year for little peanuts--winter isn't fun anymore, but the nice weather isn't quite here yet. Hang in there.

peace
minnie

So much of what your are saying BronxMom, fits the behaviors of my 10 year old. I've been making a concerted effort to not raise my voice or argue with him at all. Sadly, I'm not all that successful...but I keep trying. Homework is less of a battle than it was 3 weeks ago, but still a tremendous stress on all of us. DS is anxious, defiant, resentful, and has melt downs at the drop of a hat AT HOME. In school, other than his lasck of attention to detail, disorganization and refusal to complete written assignments, he is seen as a cheerful, well adjusted student. Home schooling is not an option right now for us, but DS hates the idea of it anyway. I really hope that if you go that direction that it works well for you. It seems to work well for alot of the families on this board

MinnieMarx,
Thank you for the quotes. I need to get that book and read it since I'm not at all sure how to get DS to that emotionally secure place. But it does describe DS very well.

Yeah, elh, that sounds familiar! This is another reason I'm unsure about homeschooling-- the anxiety seems worse with me. At school he is sloppy and wildly underachieving, but cheerful. Probably the teacher does not have so much at stake with him, and doesn't ride him as much. He even cheerfully ignores much of the work he's asked to do (any writing), and she lets him because she's got too many other students to manage.

He claims to not want to go to school anymore and he hates much of what they do, but he looks pretty happy coming out at the end of the day. But when I ask if he'd prefer to continue going to the school or be homeschooled with me, he says he wanted to be homeschooled. Confusing.

And yeah, you guys have good memories... he did just have surgery, a little less than 2 weeks again. And he had a rocky recovery. I didn't make him do anything at all for a week-- bad cartoons seemed to be all he could handle-- then I switched what he was watching to something more educational-- then I starting asking him to spend some time reading. Finally, after a week and a half, I tried to address the huge folder of homework that had come from the school. I picked out just a few pages that I thought would be interesting to him, tried to approach it with good humor and not too much pressure on him, but-- boom! there was the same defiant, resistant, almost panicky reaction of no! no! no!.

This is what prompted me to post.

My kids used to be very well behaved and cheerful for the sitter or at pre-K and then FALL APART with me! From what I read, that's common with kids. They know you love them no matter what, so they save up all their upset and dump it on mom. Not fun for mom, but a sign that a child is secure in the relationship with mom.

The worse the blow-up when home, the less happy the child is when away from mom. When DS7 started blowing up at school, too, I knew something was really not working.

If your DS understands what homeschooling is and wants to do it, that's a sign!

Before you take the plunge, how about writing up a contract about homeschooling with him (have him help make it up!) about behavioral expectations, his duties, his responsibility for his own education, etc.? Then you both sign it. Post the contract somewhere public and refer to it regularly.

Kids take that stuff seriously! I did this with my college students, and it worked well with them, too. I think a contract is a good way to make the expectations real to him and make him take you seriously as the boss.

One other thought: have you asked him why he has that reaction during a calm period when he's able to think and talk rationally? It might be worth a try...

I'm going through something similar w/ my Ker. Teacher and psych says he's happy and engaged at school yet every morning he's asking not to go. When he comes home, he seems OK. Now two weeks ago, he was very sad when he got off the bus and he was upset as school as well so the teacher started sending him to the school psych. We sort of fixed the noise issue in the lunch room which was causing him anxiety but he still says he wants to homeschool. We have the complicating issue that DS8 is being homeschooled. I will be HSing my Ker in the fall for 1st grade or sooner if he gets worse again. DS5 says he is tired of learning stuff he already knows.

The psych did say that he could be seemingly happy at school but not letting it out until he gets home. I know I constantly heard from DS8's teacher that he's fine at school but he was miserable when he got off the bus and begged, begged, and cried not to go to school.

Kriston - I like the idea about the contract!

I wonder if I can rephrase my question a little bit:

Could it be "normal" to have a PG child who is just not that interested in learning?

Or if you have a PG child who resists learning as I have described, is it always an indication that something is seriously wrong?

My son has made comments to me like: "Why can't you accept that I'm just a normal, ordinary kid."

Is he interested in learning what HE wants to learn, or not at all?

I'm just asking because I have one that will do will do whatever is put in front of her without much question.

The other one has to *buy* into anything that is asked of her. They're supposed to be pretty close in IQ.

Seems like the big dif is personality. ((shrugging shoulders))

My teen son had said something similar when he was around kindergarten. I think he knew he was more advanced than the students in class. For the next few years, he tried to appear "normal" by making mistakes and making sure everyone around him knew he made one just like them.

Yeah, he will learn what he wants to learn. But currently that means he is learning about...ships.

He reads a lot, and has A LOT of knowledge gained through reading.

But definitely, the stubborn personality is at play big time.

It's a little disconcerting when he tells me he's just an ordinary little kid and why can't I leave him alone?

I mean, why CAN'T I leave him alone?

I am new to all of this, and only have a DS4; but from all I've read on this site (and answers to my questions), is it possible that your child didn't feel like he fit in, has been made to feel uncomfortable with his giftedness at school, so didn't like any reminders of the school (with his homework), and just needs a break to recoup and regroup? These are rhetorical questions. My DS4 told me that he doesn't want to be smart two weeks ago; but all of a sudden, he is interested in learning again now that he's had a break from school, and seemed to be getting bored. I started introducing him to some new cool computer learning games, etc.

Yep that's my son. He needs to see a purpose or reason for doing something.

big ((hugs)) to you

what you say about you and your DS resonates a lot with me with our DS9. No "advice" here - but I hear you, mama!

he will learn what he wants to learn how he wants to learn it and will exhaust the subject until he knows whatever it is to his satisfaction. And then he'll move on.

I have had to let go A LOT of what "I" thought he "should" know because it just.wasn't.working. Fighting, power struggles, tears - it has been a real ... learning process (I won't say ordeal I won't say ordeal) So, he learns what he wants. I guess you'd say we're unschooling right now and have been for the most part this last 15 months or so. Public school just didn't work after first grade (sigh)

Our family is of course our family and what we do works best for us - but you know, when he is happy, the rest of us have more attention for other things. And what he knows is prodigious!

As far as feeling uncomfortable with his giftedness: He goes to an accelerated school, so all the kids are gifted-- it's more that he feels stupid and inadequate by comparison, because he is not at all "good" at what they're doing all day.

But his IQ and WIAT scores tell a different story.

Maybe it would be better if I didn't know those scores...

I guess it's true that he needs to buy into what he's doing, but he will only buy into what he's already interested in... so it's a tough nut to crack.

Hi Barbara-- we were posting at the same time... with this kind of kid I am of course drawn to the unschooling concept.

Still holding out hope that if I just stop trying to FORCE it, something magic will happen and he will start meeting his potential and will discover his inner drive.

OR will he just have won the fight and gotten the message that he can do whatever he wants?

So what are they doing all day that he feels he's not good at? Are you suspecting any hidden LDs? I would definitely say some unschooling sounds like what he needs.

Was he used to be at the top at a regular PS? Then moving to the accelerated school shattered his self-image?

THe other thing that comes to mind is something I read in "Re-forming gifted education." You can have two kids w/ identical IQs but they need very different programs. One kid needs fast-paced, accelerated programming. The other needs a slower-paced, time for deep-thinking, pondering, pursuing subjects in depth. Those 2 kids will not thrive in each other's programs. IF your son is the latter but this school is the former, that might be the mis-match.

They are writing, doing math worksheets, doing art projects.

He appears to be totally freaked out by all of it.

He is good at reading, talking, thinking.

I do think it's a mis-match, eroding his spirit, and making his stubborn streak worse.

Unschooling makes the most sense, but I am concerned that he will just get the message that he has won-- and no longer has to do anything. Also, as I've posted before, I tend to yell at him.

I would think that once his spirit is healed, the others will come into place. Does he have issues w/ the physical aspects of writing?

I think if he's learning things that he wants to learn, getting the message that someone loves him and has listened to him, and is willing to give him a chance, is gold. Don't think of it as he is winning, think of it as getting what he needs. After he's had some time to find himself, learning about things he wants to learn, you can see where he is and he may be more in a frame of mind to buy into what you are selling.

Absolutely, Dazey!!

Okay B-mom, It seems like you are concerned that you two are butting heads and a teaching set-up between you won't work, so here's what I'd suggest.

If you decide to homeschool, sit him down and tell him what you are doing and why. I do think a period of *unschooling* is necessary and since you have the WIAT report, would you really be concerned if he sat around and didn't progress academically for even a ridiculous amount of time like a year?

Realistically, I could let my kids sit around and watch t.v. only, for a year, plug them back in school at the end and they'd be no worse for wear. That's a huge advantage to having the data that you have.

I get the control issue you are sensing, so when you draw up your student-teacher agreement, you say something like: Okay, from 9a.m.-11:30a.m. we'll *do* school. I'll provide you with a variety of educational books, videos, computer learning sessions, etc, but you can choose to do what you want with that stuff during that time frame. After you've completed your school work we can go play, park, zoo, play, etc. No t.v., video games, whatever time-sucking device of your choice-insert here, until such and such time.

Then, stick to the schedule- do not deviate.

Try seeing if that removes some of the control issues/struggles that you are seeing. You might just see him stop struggling for so much control as a natural result of him being in a more appropriate learning environmnet.

I defininately agree with what Dazey is saying about different learning enviroments. I'll add that both girls have very similar IQ's AND processing speed scores. I really do think the personality of little sis is the key to figuring out how to adjust her learning needs......

HTH

I agree with 'Neato. If you set the boundaries and you're doing it because you think it's what he needs (not merely the path of least resistance), then you're in charge.

You're not giving in as long as you're...not giving in. I know that sounds odd, but I think it's accurate. If you're choosing the path because it's the best one for your child, then it doesn't have to be about power at all, and you're not giving in. You're making a choice.

Just be sure to set the rules and stick to them.

FWIW, I do work very closely with my DS7 when deciding what to learn and how to approach the material. I think that when I respect what he's saying about his preferences, then he responds to me with more respect.

Granted, we have two different kids, but it is something to consider, I think.

Keep talking if it helps!

I'm intrigued by the comment you made about his interest in ships. There are so many different areas of learning that you can bring up while on the subject of ships.

Literature - many stories are written about sea life
History - naval and civil history
Economics - the use of ships for trade
Social Studies - The cultural impact of travel and trade by sea
Astronomy - Celestial navigation
Science - structure of ships, surface tension, displacement, Weather, oceanography, engineering, physics
Math - Calculating distances traveled, chartng courses, figuring out speeds, cargo value, supplies needed to make the journey etc.

And I'm sure much much more

I believe I remember that Kriston when she started Home Schooling fitted a variety of subjects around the subject transformers?

I think my point is not to worry if the initial focus seems narrow. There are alot of ways to work out a curriculm even if the topic seems very narrow. If you have a topic, post it here and I'm sure you'll get lots of ideas from us! Probably more than you want or need.

Yup. We did all sorts of things about robots and automotive engineering ala Transformers to get him fired up about learning. He branched out naturally from there just because things came up. One thing leads to another and all that...

Good point, elh!

My DS6 now wants me to teach hime Physics as the result of going to the circus! You never know where things will pop up.

To go along w/ what elh wrote, my friend's DS loves to do lapbooks. I took a quick look to see if there were any on ships and didn't see anything off hand but will look some more. Her son HATES to write, but doesn't mind writing for a lapbook.

What an awesome list elh0706

AND, bmom, you are in a great area for unschooling on ships...

http://www.noblemaritime.org/
http://www.southstreetseaportmuseum.org/
these links and more at: http://www.maritimemuseums.net/NY.html
etc.

Yes, I'd be tempted to just do nothing but the history and development of naval technologies, from the beginning of time on down to today. History, science, literature with that period's ships in it, etc.

That sounds REALLY fun, actually!

And don't forget to watch Treasure Quest, I think it might be Discovery Channel!!! Great way to tie in science (decomposition of ships) and history.

www.intrepidmuseum.org - we used to be members, but haven't been back since they refurbished it.

well, check this out: http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/Education/Teachers/Lesson-Plans--amp;-Activities.aspx and http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/Education/Teachers/Our-Programs.aspx

Hey guys,
these are all great suggestions... we are actually members of the South Street Seaport museum and the Intrepid (actually, if you join the NY Hall of Science you get in the Intrepid plus a LOT of other museums for free, so we do that) and have been to these museums an insane number of times. I'll have to check out that other link, questions-- and the links from eastnwest look great too-- looks like there are lots of local museums I've never even heard of that we can explore on the days when we can use the car.

And yeah, the passion for ships is an avenue for studying lots of other things-- the problem remains that he is only interested in exploring the aspects he is interested in exploring, but this is a much more cooperative approach.

Though I can't help but feeling, that, well...that it's a lot of work.

I do think he will respond well to feeling respected, and much of his defiance is just frustration at not feeling listened to.

Yet another problem is that he is addicted to video games of all kinds. I could always see he was the video game type, but we did not have a computer or TV until he was 5 (we did watch movies sometimes)...now he has two teenage stepsiblings with iphones and computers everywhere and all he wants to do is go on the computer and play games and he gets extra defiant and whiny when thwarted. I just want to take him to the woods and cleanse him!

Hmmm... the Intrepid stuff looks interesting-- but these programs are for school groups, right?

Do the educational departments of these museums ever work directly with homeschoolers?

We actually met some teachers from the Intrepid educational department last year at the NY Hall of Science (when the Intrepid was closed) and I remember they were very impressed with and curious about my son, who was by far the most avid member of their audience.

The NY Hall of Science is also great, but they've been repeating the same demonstrations and experiments for the 5 years we've been going there!

Oh, and I meant to ask... what's a lapbook?

What is lapbooking link. lapbooking

bronxmom, I had a couple of ideas about books and things, if you do go in the ship direction:

There is a neat website we have played with a certain amount, called "Charting Neptune's Realm: From Classical Mythology to Satellite Imagery", all about nautical charts. There are excellent lesson plans all laid out, with some fun activities, too. It's at www.usm.maine.edu/maps/exhibit8/

Some books my lads have liked, all nautical in nature:

Carry on, Mr. Bowditch (Jean Latham)
Treasure Island (RLS)
Voyage of the Dawn Treader (CS Lewis)
Exploring the Frozen North (Pierre Berton)
All Sail Set: A Romance of the Flying Cloud (Armstrong Sperry)
not yet read, but on deck (so to speak): Coral Island (RM Ballantyne)

And there are lots of kids' adaptations of the Odyssey, surely the greatest sea story of all! Our favourite is Neil Philip's. Oh, and there are kids' versions of Moby Dick, too--we've got Geraldine McCaughrean's.

Maybe you could get a nice book about knots (Lee Valley Tools has some, I think--think they've got other nice nauticalia, too), a hunk of rope, and practise, practise, practise? Maybe something to keep his hands busy will pull him away from the video games more easily.

Anyway, just an idea or two--let us know if we can help!

peace
minnie

I think the most important part is to remove power struggle from your and DS relationship. If you can walk away from the arguments then he will have nobody to fight with. It may look like giving in but sometimes that's the smartest thing to do. I like to be in control but if it ends up with a battle of wills then neither one of us is in control, we both loose. This was the most important lesson I learned during the first few weeks/months of homeschooling. If you think something will end up with power struggle then don't even go there.

I love all the suggestions regarding your DS's interest in ship. It's amazing how much you can do with a subject of strong interest.

Homeschool Co-op has an excellent list of places to visit, the best I've seen so far.

http://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/field-trips/

Interesting - I've seen them mentioned but had no clue what they were. Sort of a make your own pop-up book - a precursor to a powerpoint presentation. I don't think it would fly with my DS, but I can see how it could be fun. Thanks!

I found you a Lee Valley link:

www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&cat=1,46096&p=46117&ap=1

Golly, hope it works!

peace
minnie

Bother, the link's not clickable. Sorry. Well, just go to leevalley.com and put "naval" in the search box, and you should come up with that page.

It's not as much work as you might think, BronxMom. An online library search will do it for you (if your library has its catalog online, or a trip to the catalog if it's not online).

Our library even has an educator's card available, so there are no fines and we can keep things for 3 months! LOVE that!

Just request anything and everything that looks interesting and relevant to the topic. You don't have to prep it all beyond flipping through to check reading level and relevance when you go to check the books out. Just let him wade through it all and talk with you about it, write about it, work with it.

You can even have with him a "Here's the deal..." speech so that he understands that he can learn all about his pet interest, but that he has to meet certain standards AND cover all school subjects, or the books go back to the library. That's the deal: take it or leave it.

That's how I'd approach it!